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 Post subject: Arsenal suggestions
 Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 8:57 pm Post Number: #1 Post
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My arsensal is filled with stuff with similar layouts. Until recently, my go to layout was 80 x 4 x 50. I did have some balls with higher VAL layouts for smoother transition. However, I'm looking at my ball racks and seeing a LOT of the same.

Now, I'm still of the belief that an arsenal shouldn't be riddled with a ton of layouts...find 2-3 you like and go with that.

I will admit, on a lark, I tried a long/tall pin combo (80 x 5 x 30) and I really like how that ball retains energy. In the past, lower VAL layouts haven't rolled the best for me, but those all had lower pin to PAP distances 4" or less.

That being said, and with what I've seen recently, I'm open to suggestions with other layouts. I'm curious as to what a longer pin to PAP (5"+) and lower sums might look like. I wouldn't mind looking at something than the standard 3 1/2" to 4 1/2" range.

Looking for the standard symmetrical/asym layouts (benchmark, control, long/strong, skid/flip, hook/set)

Fire away

Stats (if you haven't seen them all over this place :) )
LH
RPM - 350-400
Speed - 17- 18.5
Rotation - 55-80
Tilt - 7

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We need to work on getting that teddy bear body of yours more open throughout the approach.


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 Post subject: Re: Arsenal suggestions
 Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 4:21 am Post Number: #2 Post
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Mongo wrote:
Looking for the standard symmetrical/asym layouts (benchmark, control, long/strong, skid/flip, hook/set)

Fire away

Stats (if you haven't seen them all over this place )
LH
RPM - 350-400
Speed - 17- 18.5
Rotation - 55-80
Tilt - 7

What is your PAP today?
Knowing PAP I can suggest options of drilling gripping holes deeper for tuning purposes.

Sweetspot 95* Totals, 2.25:1 Ratio
Asymmetrical layouts
Totally Strong ................. 55-4-20
Midlane ......................... 45-3.5-30
Benchmark ..................... 65-3.5-30
Long and Strong ............. 85-3.5-30
Skid Snap ...................... 80-5-35
Control .......................... 65-3-50 for side to side control, large smooth arc, more hook
Control .......................... 65-5-50 for front to back control, straighter play, less hook
Hook Set ....................... 50-5.5-30
low flare ........................ 90-2-30

Symmetrical layouts
Benchmark ................... xx-4.25-35
Control ........................ xx-4.25-60 pin in the ring finger
low flare ...................... xx-5-35
low flare/Control .......... xx-5-60 pin in the middle finger
Skid snap .................... xx-3-35

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PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: Arsenal suggestions
 Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 9:19 am Post Number: #3 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:

What is your PAP today?
Knowing PAP I can suggest options of drilling gripping holes deeper for tuning purposes.

Sweetspot 95* Totals, 2.25:1 Ratio
Asymmetrical layouts
Totally Strong ................. 55-4-20
Midlane ......................... 45-3.5-30
Benchmark ..................... 65-3.5-30
Long and Strong ............. 85-3.5-30
Skid Snap ...................... 80-5-35
Control .......................... 65-3-50 for side to side control, large smooth arc, more hook
Control .......................... 65-5-50 for front to back control, straighter play, less hook
Hook Set ....................... 50-5.5-30
low flare ........................ 90-2-30

Symmetrical layouts
Benchmark ................... xx-4.25-35
Control ........................ xx-4.25-60 pin in the ring finger
low flare ...................... xx-5-35
low flare/Control .......... xx-5-60 pin in the middle finger
Skid snap .................... xx-3-35
I commend Eric for all the time and effort he puts in on this site. I would probably make this recommendation for the pin to PAP distances on the skid/snap layouts. Mo says: for a skid/snap reaction, you want the ball to delay the transitions (retain tilt/rotation). The 5" pin to PAP will make the ball face up very soon on an asymmetrical ball. On a symmetrical layout, you would use longer pin to PAP distances.

Here is one thread where Mo clarifies this: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=3865&hilit=skid+snap

In #7 ICURNVS asked Mo why the low flare on skid/snap layouts and Mo's reply was: "You decrease the flare to delay the transitions on ALL balls." Another way to think about it is that low flare is more like polishing a ball where high flare is like adding texture.


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 Post subject: Re: Arsenal suggestions
 Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 3:40 pm Post Number: #4 Post
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elgavachon wrote:
I commend Eric for all the time and effort he puts in on this site. I would probably make this recommendation for the pin to PAP distances on the skid/snap layouts. Mo says: for a skid/snap reaction, you want the ball to delay the transitions (retain tilt/rotation). The 5" pin to PAP will make the ball face up very soon on an asymmetrical ball. On a symmetrical layout, you would use longer pin to PAP distances.

Here is one thread where Mo clarifies this: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=3865&hilit=skid+snap

In #7 ICURNVS asked Mo why the low flare on skid/snap layouts and Mo's reply was: "You decrease the flare to delay the transitions on ALL balls." Another way to think about it is that low flare is more like polishing a ball where high flare is like adding texture.

Larger drilling angles on Asyms flare less in the oil and progress to more flare on the back ends.
Smaller Drilling angles flare more in the oil and less on the backend.

Surface tuning is another recommendation in achieving specific ball motions.

With the elimination of balance holes, tuning with the depth of gripping holes is the only other option. Thus I asked about Mongo's PAP. This would let me know where the fingers are in relation to the Pin to make that type of recommendation.

I am confident with my recommendations for Mongo as my release specs are quite close to his when I move deep inside. When I increase my rotation my tilt goes down. (My B game)

My skid snap ball is an Asym 75-5-35. The Symmetrical 3" pin to PAP was actually too angular for my liking, leaving lots of 9 pins pushing me even deeper and further from my comfort zone so I motion holed it and smoothed out the reaction putting it in the Control category.

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PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: Arsenal suggestions
 Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 8:05 pm Post Number: #5 Post
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We can assume Mongo switches to his "B" game also (as you do) when he needs a skid/flip reaction. For other members trying to learn from this thread, here are the facts according to Mo

Fact: If you are looking for skid snap, you do not want the ball to roll early (you retain tilt and rotation).

Fact: Long pins on asymmetrical balls make the ball face up early.

Fact: Mo says "You decrease the flare to delay the transitions on ALL balls."

Fact: quote was taken from a discussion on skid/flip layouts. viewtopic.php?t=3865


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 Post subject: Re: Arsenal suggestions
 Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 9:26 pm Post Number: #6 Post
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Oooops

PAP is 4 5/16 over, 1 3/4 up.

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Mongo,
We need to work on getting that teddy bear body of yours more open throughout the approach.


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 Post subject: Re: Arsenal suggestions
 Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 9:29 pm Post Number: #7 Post
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Thanks for the input guys.

Also, feel free to debate/discuss. We all learn from a good extended thread.

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We need to work on getting that teddy bear body of yours more open throughout the approach.


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 Post subject: Re: Arsenal suggestions
 Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 9:40 pm Post Number: #8 Post
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Also, I'm friends with a couple of ball reps and they've suggested pin distances as far as 5.5 to 6" for max length.

Have you ever played with pin placements that long? If so, what results are you seeing?

I'm dumping a bunch of balls and will plug 2 or 3 and play with some of these layouts. Like I said in the OP, most of my equipment has VAL ranges between 45 and 65. This is an oversight on my part and, just in recently revisiting it, something that is going to have a big impact for me.

I will admit, it's been nice to see recovery where I was seeing the ball burn up and flat corner.

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JMerrell wrote:
Mongo,
We need to work on getting that teddy bear body of yours more open throughout the approach.


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 Post subject: Re: Arsenal suggestions
 Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 10:42 pm Post Number: #9 Post
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Mongo wrote:
Also, I'm friends with a couple of ball reps and they've suggested pin distances as far as 5.5 to 6" for max length.

Have you ever played with pin placements that long? If so, what results are you seeing?

I'm dumping a bunch of balls and will plug 2 or 3 and play with some of these layouts. Like I said in the OP, most of my equipment has VAL ranges between 45 and 65. This is an oversight on my part and, just in recently revisiting it, something that is going to have a big impact for me.

I will admit, it's been nice to see recovery where I was seeing the ball burn up and flat corner.


That is for symmetrical layouts. On a symmetrical layout, a very long pin to PAP distances will decrease the flare.


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 Post subject: Re: Arsenal suggestions
 Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 10:56 pm Post Number: #10 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:
Skid snap .................... xx-3-35


Question, and I'll have more....It was my understanding that with symmetricals, as you move towards the PAP from 3 3/8, the ball would rev up sooner. If so, wouldn't a 4.5 x 35 produce a more skid/snap reaction than 3 x 35 in a symmetrical?

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Mongo,
We need to work on getting that teddy bear body of yours more open throughout the approach.


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 Post subject: Re: Arsenal suggestions
 Posted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 11:31 pm Post Number: #11 Post
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Mongo wrote:
Question, and I'll have more....It was my understanding that with symmetricals, as you move towards the PAP from 3 3/8, the ball would rev up sooner. If so, wouldn't a 4.5 x 35 produce a more skid/snap reaction than 3 x 35 in a symmetrical?

I was in the middle of a response as you posted this.
My understanding of this seems to be flawed but based on my own experience, I make recommendations based on what I would do.
On Symmetricals I get more angular backend reaction with the 3" pin to PAP than I do with 4.5".
I feel the longer pin to PAP on Symmetricals offer more controlled reactions where the shorter make for more violent reactions.

elgavachon wrote:
We can assume Mongo switches to his "B" game also (as you do) when he needs a skid/flip reaction. For other members trying to learn from this thread, here are the facts according to Mo
Fact: If you are looking for skid snap, you do not want the ball to roll early (you retain tilt and rotation).

Fact: Long pins on asymmetrical balls make the ball face up early.

Fact: Mo says "You decrease the flare to delay the transitions on ALL balls."

Fact: quote was taken from a discussion on skid/flip layouts. viewtopic.php?t=3865

Please recommend a skid flip layout rather than quote from 8 years ago with a conversation about a bowler with 15* of tilt. Not to mention pin to PAP for Asyms was never settled on in the conversation. The thread ends with control and low flare.
And if you truly believe an Asymmetrical low flare layout is skid snap please show me video so I may believe it too.

You state...
elgavachon wrote:
Fact: Long pins on asymmetrical balls make the ball face up early.
yes creating a short hook phase transitioning from hook to roll, Not shortening the skid phase. A shiny ball and large drilling angle provide this. Along with the fact that the more Asymmetrical a ball is the longer it naturally holds on to tilt and rotation until friction at the end of the pattern influences the ball then the long pin to PAP, high Rg drilling, releases that energy creating a snap hook type reaction.

Paying attention to Mongo's other posts, he is being pushed deeper than comfortable with balls that hook too much, covering too many boards, thus I gave 2 different control layout options. He is also looking for layouts that are not necessarily in the middle of normal recommendations. My layout lists are a starting point and once a ball is chosen the decision as to what layout to use is then made considering any modifications to the layout at that time.

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PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: Arsenal suggestions
 Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 12:10 am Post Number: #12 Post
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Good post Eric. Let me dig deep into the issues I'm seeing at my home house and what I see when I travel.

At the home house, there is a lot of early friction from the surface. To combat it, our lane guy goes with a bit more volume, but there is still early hook. I've stuck to simpler layouts (4 x 50) and just tried playing with surface and higher RG balls. I'm doing OK, but I know the pattern shape and I've got serious OB outside of 7 if I get it out there late. I don't mind playing deeper, but when you've got a cliff out there where buckets and washouts come into play, you tend to squeeze your alignment in.

That being said, my recent lower flare, more responsive layouts have really opened my eyes as to what I've been missing.

On the road (basically tournaments/sport shots), that's a completely different animal. As you know, most tournament patterns have much less taper front to back, and with my combo rev rate/speed/tilt/rotation, my current equipment either goes sideways out of the pattern or doesn't read at all. In the near future, I'm bowling a couple of sport shots on old wood, which only magnifies the hockey stick reaction I fight. Not to mention, I've got USBCs in June, so that's a completely different look.

At the end of the day, I know I can throw it, but I think my current lineup is a hindrance instead of an aid. What I'm looking for is a solid progression between 6-9 balls that should hit most situations.

Right now, I've got a bunch of balls with similar VAL angles that either read early on house shots or are over/under on sport patterns.

Is that a decent rollup of my situation?

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JMerrell wrote:
Mongo,
We need to work on getting that teddy bear body of yours more open throughout the approach.


Last edited by Mongo on Mon Apr 22, 2019 11:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Arsenal suggestions
 Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 1:10 am Post Number: #13 Post
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Heck, might was well pit it out there.

FULL arsenal
Asymmetrical
Katana Dragon - 40 x 4 x 45
Conspiracy - 70 x 4.5 x 50
Prowler - 70 x 4.5 x 50
Saber - 80 x 4 x 50
Real One - 80 x 4 x 50
Kinetic Emerald - 80 x 4 x 50
Verdict Pearl - 90 x 3.25 x 45
Tremendous - 90 x 2 x 45

Symmetrical
Intel - 4 x 50
Magnitude 035 - 4 x 50
Magnitude 035 Pearl - 4 x 50
Poison - 4 x 50
Cutting Edge Solid - 4.5 x 65
Turmoil Solid - 4.5 x 65
Ridiculous Pearl - 3.25 x 50
Impulse Solid - 4 x 50
GB2 MVP - 4.5 x 35
Viral Hybrid - 4 x 30
Method - 3 x 50
Rack Attack Solid - 4 x 50
Beyond Ridiculous - 5 x 30
Diva Style - 5 x 30

I may have a bit of redundancy and overlap. In the past, I've liked the predictability of the 4 x 50 combos, but having drilled lower flare/taller pin layouts over the past week, I'm realizing I'm giving away a ton of downlane energy.

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We need to work on getting that teddy bear body of yours more open throughout the approach.


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 Post subject: Re: Arsenal suggestions
 Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:19 am Post Number: #14 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:
yes creating a short hook phase transitioning from hook to roll, Not shortening the skid phase. A shiny ball and large drilling angle provide this.

Short hook phase is not our objective for a skid/snap layout. We do not want a ball to roll forward when it sees friction for this scenario.

Don't confuse a strong backend with skid/snap, either. 2 separate ball shapes very important to this discussion. Most of my experiments lately have been with 2 handers. I have tried a lot of longer pins with large Drilling angles (Much longer in the 5.5-6.5 range) on 2 handed bowlers with asymmetrical balls, and they have all brought them back to plug and shorten but it was not because the ball was skid/snappy. They flattened out too much. Wish I had before and after videos.
That is what You say you need Mongo because your current arsenal is too snappy on the back so skid snap is already part of your arsenal. Actually I have bowled with you Donnie and you have a lot of revs. (envious ball motion). I think you have a nice fit with your arsenal. I would like to see the pin to PAP of the Tremendous on a few other balls (I think you will get more use out of 90* 2 45*, still condition specific) for a different look. Tremendous solid is a very smooth ball. That pin distance (asymmetrical) should fit your game for a lot of conditions (You are close to what Mo calls PDW territory). I like your current layouts on asymmetrical. Val angles are all about the same on symmetricals just like you said (could use a few small VALs in the mix)


Sure you can switch to an "out of the box skid/snap ball by nature" and say this pin to PAP will still be skid/snap or that particular pin to PAP will still be skid/snap (that is not what we are discussing). We are saying that a long pin to PAP on an asymmetrical ball loses tilt earlier than short pins.


You guys are right with symmetrical layouts.
Mo has changed his ideas a little for symmetrical layouts. He is saying that a 3"-4.5" will do what Eric and Mongo are seeing (scoot with a strong recovery I think is how he worded it). In his 2019 video on Radical website ,he claims that for high track players, the ball will have more side rotation with that pin to PAP distance. He doesn't go into detail.

Nobody questioned a large drilling angle Eric (if you notice, that was always part of a skid/snap layout as well as a large ratio).

The large drilling angle with a small Val angle and an xtra long pin to PAP was one of the staple layouts that Joey Cerrar said he used when he was testing balls. 70* 5 20* He called it a PBA trick layout and said it rolled great. Not skid/flip. (of course that was more than 8 yrs ago)

A shorter pin to PAP (asymmetrical) still retains tilt even with your 7* tilt Mongo (as far as I am currently aware).

The theory's of flare on bowling balls has not changed as far as I know (even in 8 yrs). More flare still puts a fresh surface of the ball rolling on the lane. Flare is still similar to more texture. Not what we are after in a skid/snap since more texture would smooth out the ball motion and less texture would skid/snap easier.

Long pins (asymmetrical) still cause more flare. (not wanted in a pro skid snap discussion as I see it.)

Short pins (asymmetrical) still retain tilt. (wanted in this discussion)

As far as symmetrical pin to PAP layouts, there was an article in BTM where Bill Sempsrott said there was very little difference in ball motion except for the extreme pin to PAP distances. USBC testing with earl showed the same thing. A worth reading article. He was with Mo on the asymmetrical flare patterns though and he also showed what Eric brought up (that a 90* Drilling Angle has flare patterns a little more similar to symmetrical layouts.


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 Post subject: Re: Arsenal suggestions
 Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 4:02 am Post Number: #15 Post
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I punched up a Kingpin SE with a 85 x 3.5 x 30 layout.

Gets through the fronts great, but when that flare kicks in, it's done, everything is in the midlane. Continuation was almost non-existent. Now, if I kept it in the oil, it was better, but I was shocked....and disappointed at how it almost hook/set.

Starting to think that the high flare layouts just aren't going to work for me in my regular bag. Might be something I can keep for the tournament bag when I'm trying to control the backend, but for a league ball, nope.

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We need to work on getting that teddy bear body of yours more open throughout the approach.


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 Post subject: Re: Arsenal suggestions
 Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:57 am Post Number: #16 Post
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Get in the oil with some surface.

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 Post subject: Re: Arsenal suggestions
 Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 1:17 pm Post Number: #17 Post
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44boyd wrote:
Get in the oil with some surface.


I'm in around 13-15. Any deeper than that and the angles get too big (for the house shot). There's a ton of midlane friction and if you start opening up the lane, you're shooting corners like it's your job.

Plus, I'm killing the place with a 5 x 30 Beyond right now. I'd like an asym with a similar reaction when they tighten up.

Overall, just looking to adjust my bag/arsenal. Pretty sure a bunch of 4 x 50 stuff isn't doing me any favors.

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We need to work on getting that teddy bear body of yours more open throughout the approach.


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 Post subject: Re: Arsenal suggestions
 Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 1:38 pm Post Number: #18 Post
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Try a Bias pearl of other high RG asymmetrical. Kingpin SE is not that.

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 Post subject: Re: Arsenal suggestions
 Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 2:51 pm Post Number: #19 Post
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44boyd wrote:
Try a Bias pearl of other high RG asymmetrical. Kingpin SE is not that.


It is not.....which is probably why it won't corner.

I'm ditching a bunch of balls and may plug a couple and try some different layouts.

I'll keep everybody posted on this adventure.

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We need to work on getting that teddy bear body of yours more open throughout the approach.


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 Post subject: Re: Arsenal suggestions
 Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 5:33 pm Post Number: #20 Post
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Here's one for you...and a situation I see in the house more than often.

Start out last night with the Beyond (30 x 5), front 8, bad pitch, close out for 260.

Second game, I start to get early hook/flat backend reaction. Try moving deeper into oil and lose recovery. Switch to Diva Style (same layout), over/under.

I see this more than I care to admit when it warms up in this house. The mids go, but you can't really open up your angles. Pearls with similar layouts just won't corner. So, where do I go from here? Shiny asym with a long/strong or skid/flip layout?

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We need to work on getting that teddy bear body of yours more open throughout the approach.


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