Bowling layout stuff on Bowling chat Univeristy

Which layout is right for me?

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krava
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Bowling layout stuff on Bowling chat Univeristy

Post by krava » April 3rd, 2019, 6:03 am

(I didn't know anything about layouts before this, I knew like a long and strong, a control etc but not how to achive it before tonight. I went though this thing a year ago atleast on the 101 class and had to read that thing over and over and it still sounded greek. Reading all this actually made since and I wasn't ever lost even in the l201 class). I just went through both parts of that thing in about 2 hours or under it. The first one is fine.. The 2nd one with alot of things to read and charts is the one I have a question on.

Question: What is considered low axis tilt? 7% or under? what is considered low rotation 30% or under? high rotation over 60 degrees? The only thing stated on there I think is normal rotation is 50-60 degrees or something. There is no statement for normal tilt.


Here is a few complicated things:

"VAL Angle - Determines length of the hook zone, or how fast the ball transitions from hook to roll, the 2nd line on the diagram. For players that are matched a good median number is between 40 and 50 for benchmarks. Adjust up for more rev dominant guys or control layouts and adjust down for speed dominant guys or more sharp breakpoints. The lower the number, the less amount of continuation you get, the higher the number, the more continuation. "

What if you are a speed dominate person and want a less sharp breakpoint? One says adjust up the other says adjust down. So They just even it out and just skip adding and subtracting to it?

here is something else I don't understand how it works:

"Adjust the angles for the pattern the bowler wants to use the ball on.

Use higher ratios for flatter or more demanding patterns to create a stronger reaction to friction
Use lower ratios for easier THS wet / dry patterns for more control and mid-lane reaction "

First of all what is considered a longer oil pattern? (it isn't listed anywhere in the bowling U that I can see and I know it isn't in the above question). 2nd The USBC Nationals is a flatter pattern but why would you want a stronger reaction to friction?? The backends on that thing will jump like mad. So why would you drill the ball to "jump" in the friction? and not maybe slowly burn off the friction once it hits it?


My head is hurting from having to cram all that in, in an hour or two. I got a 93% in the first one but got killed in the last one and got 50%. I have never had a test that hard in my life. The only way to pass this thing is to bascially memorize several charts such as distances to the pap in asym and sym ball and the effect that has on it and alot of other things.

44boyd
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Re: Bowling layout stuff on Bowling chat Univeristy

Post by 44boyd » April 3rd, 2019, 11:23 am

I’m sure Eric will give you what he considers low tilt. I think he’s anything under 10 for low.

VAL, since you’re speed dominate a quicker reaction is needed to make sure it moves. So a 35 would be a milder reaction vs 20 for a flip.

Long patterns, over 42 feet where you have less lane for the ball to react.

Flat pattern gives no hold, so your ball has to create it through the oil and react to the dry.

Higher ratios make the reaction more defined, so a 90-20 will be sharp. 45-35 not as drastic even though total is lower.
Stacy

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EricHartwell
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Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
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Re: Bowling layout stuff on Bowling chat Univeristy

Post by EricHartwell » April 3rd, 2019, 8:54 pm

Sorry I do not have time at this moment to respond with the detail needed.
I am responding to this now to have it my post list and it won't get lost.
Eric Hartwell

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PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

CuriousBowler
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Re: Bowling layout stuff on Bowling chat Univeristy

Post by CuriousBowler » April 4th, 2019, 3:05 am

There's one thing I want to comment on, in which you posted.
"Use higher ratios for flatter or more demanding patterns to create a stronger reaction to friction
Use lower ratios for easier THS wet / dry patterns for more control and mid-lane reaction"
The last part mentions using lower ratios for easier THS/Wet-dry conditions. If that's a "Both" type deal. I disagree in regards to the THS part. As yes that makes plenty of sense for a lot of bowlers who stay far to one side, and swing it to the other side. However for someone who's playing outside, playing up the lane hitting a good amount of dry. If they're using any kind of mid level, or higher ball. Goodluck with getting the ball to hit the pocket correctly, unless you damn near flatten out your hand, and just let the ball do everything.

I'm in no way trying to argue about this. I just feel that statement depends on the type of bowler, and how they're trying to attack the lanes. Because higher ratios I feel on a THS benefit's a bowler playing outside up the dry boards, trying to keep a tamed ball motion down 60ft of lane. With that said, I look forward to seeing all the comments in this thread. I enjoy reading, and learning more from others here.

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Re: Bowling layout stuff on Bowling chat Univeristy

Post by trackbowler » April 5th, 2019, 3:53 pm

CuriousBowler wrote:The last part mentions using lower ratios for easier THS/Wet-dry conditions. If that's a "Both" type deal. I disagree in regards to the THS part. As yes that makes plenty of sense for a lot of bowlers who stay far to one side, and swing it to the other side. However for someone who's playing outside, playing up the lane hitting a good amount of dry. If they're using any kind of mid level, or higher ball. Goodluck with getting the ball to hit the pocket correctly, unless you damn near flatten out your hand, and just let the ball do everything.
Curious, something I want to mention after reading this reply and most of your layout thread. If you try to force where you're playing the lane you're going to struggle to score consistently. I know you want to play the outside part of the lane but that shot won't be available every time you show up to bowl.

That is the reason to have an arsenal that will let you play multiple parts of the lane. Unless you are very good at adjusting your hand position I would recommend staying with your "A" release and playing the part of the lane that the condition dictates instead of forcing the issue of playing where you want to play.
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Re: Bowling layout stuff on Bowling chat Univeristy

Post by CuriousBowler » April 5th, 2019, 4:13 pm

trackbowler,

I understand where you, and others are coming from in this regard. I don't mind adjusting my feet to the left some. I'm just trying to avoid having to stand far left, and swinging it like crazy. Which I think I can do, and still play closer to my "comfort" zone. With my current equipment, and layouts, that's hard to do, unless the lanes are playing pretty slick outside. Which the lanes I bowl on, do play that way at times.

Once I can get a ball drilled with a higher VAL angle, and lower flaring pin position. I think I will be able to get the ball motion I want, and be able to play closer to the area I like. Just currently that's not ideal for me, due to some of my own self limits, and having layouts on my main balls, that promote more of a get down the lane, and come off the breakpoint pretty strong.

Anyways if you would like to discuss more, feel free to reply in my thread. I don't mind discussing my way of thinking on stuff. I know i'm not right about everything, reason I come here to discuss what i'm trying to do. As for the OP of this thread, sorry for this off topic reply... will keep future discussion in my own thread.

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EricHartwell
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Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous
Medium Oil Ball: Motiv Villain, Hammer Nail, Brunswick True Motion
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Columbia Nitrous
Location: Michigan

Re: Bowling layout stuff on Bowling chat Univeristy

Post by EricHartwell » April 5th, 2019, 4:39 pm

krava wrote:(I didn't know anything about layouts before this, I knew like a long and strong, a control etc but not how to achive it before tonight. I went though this thing a year ago atleast on the 101 class and had to read that thing over and over and it still sounded greek. Reading all this actually made since and I wasn't ever lost even in the l201 class). I just went through both parts of that thing in about 2 hours or under it. The first one is fine.. The 2nd one with alot of things to read and charts is the one I have a question on.

Question: What is considered low axis tilt? 7% or under? what is considered low rotation 30% or under? high rotation over 60 degrees? The only thing stated on there I think is normal rotation is 50-60 degrees or something. There is no statement for normal tilt.
10* and under is what I consider low tilt.
11*-20* Medium Tilt
20*+ High tilt
0-40* low rotation, 40*-60* medium rotation and 60*+ high rotation.


Here is a few complicated things:

"VAL Angle - Determines length of the hook zone, or how fast the ball transitions from hook to roll, the 2nd line on the diagram. For players that are matched a good median number is between 40 and 50 for benchmarks. Adjust up for more rev dominant guys or control layouts and adjust down for speed dominant guys or more sharp breakpoints. The lower the number, the less amount of continuation you get, the higher the number, the more continuation. "

What if you are a speed dominate person and want a less sharp breakpoint? One says adjust up the other says adjust down. So They just even it out and just skip adding and subtracting to it?
The base numbers for optimum layouts are a starting point. This is what I use for the Basic arsenal lists I provide. These lists create a Range of usable layouts usually +/- 20* on the Totals and +/- .5 on the Ratio. Adjusting within the range is perfectly acceptable. So for example, a bowler wants the benchmark total but wants it a little smoother on the back end you can use the Control Ratio with Benchmark totals. Another example would be a Long and Strong layout on a skid snap ball, reduce the Ratio to not get and over-reaction on the back end. This ends up being a Benchmark Ratio on the Long and Strong Totals.

here is something else I don't understand how it works:

"Adjust the angles for the pattern the bowler wants to use the ball on.

Use higher ratios for flatter or more demanding patterns to create a stronger reaction to friction
Use lower ratios for easier THS wet / dry patterns for more control and mid-lane reaction "
I think this statement from Mo was taken out of context.
I don't agree with this as a blanket statement/rule for planning layouts.
The guidelines for the Sport layouts use Lower Ratios to make sure the core is reaction before it leaves the pattern and does not over-react once it hits the dry back-end.

I would re-write it to say...

Use higher ratios to create a stronger reaction to friction
Use lower ratios for wet / dry patterns for more control and mid-lane reaction


First of all what is considered a longer oil pattern? (it isn't listed anywhere in the bowling U that I can see and I know it isn't in the above question).
Most house shots are between 38'-41' in length. So I consider patterns 42'+ longer patterns and need in my opinion a layout adjustment to play them from the optimum angles.
2nd The USBC Nationals is a flatter pattern but why would you want a stronger reaction to friction?? The backends on that thing will jump like mad. So why would you drill the ball to "jump" in the friction? and not maybe slowly burn off the friction once it hits it?
Good observation, generally speaking you are seeing this correctly. The only reason I can see is if you are forced way inside and need to cover the whole lane side to side would you need a ball like that.

My head is hurting from having to cram all that in, in an hour or two. I got a 93% in the first one but got killed in the last one and got 50%. I have never had a test that hard in my life. The only way to pass this thing is to basically memorize several charts such as distances to the pap in asym and sym ball and the effect that has on it and alot of other things.
In the real world you only need to remember where the charts are. I figure out all these layouts for people by referencing the needed information when I need it. I've figured out enough layouts that things like pin to PAP distances are second nature but the Dual Angle Ratio Guide gets opened up Every time.
I see nothing wrong with having such information available when taking the tests.
Comments in color above
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

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