New arsenal build

Which layout is right for me?

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nwohbowler
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New arsenal build

Post by nwohbowler » March 12th, 2019, 1:47 pm

Given the attached info from my Bowler ID and Specto sessions, I'm looking for suggestions of ball/layouts for both wood and synthetic lanes as I'm currently bowling in houses with both surfaces as well as looking at doing some tournament bowling. By both, I mean something that will work on both surfaces not really different options for each unless that's the only way to go. Thanks so much in advance.
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Right handed
Rev Rate 420s
Ball speed at release 17
Axis point 6 3/16" and 1" up
Tilt 17 degrees
Rotation 70 degrees

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EricHartwell
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Re: New arsenal build

Post by EricHartwell » March 12th, 2019, 11:41 pm

nwohbowler wrote:Given the attached info from my Bowler ID and Specto sessions, I'm looking for suggestions of ball/layouts for both wood and synthetic lanes as I'm currently bowling in houses with both surfaces as well as looking at doing some tournament bowling. By both, I mean something that will work on both surfaces not really different options for each unless that's the only way to go. Thanks so much in advance.
First off your PAP as measured with the Bowler ID is for a non-flaring ball. I would not use it for drilling any ball with substantial flare.
Find your PAP on a ball that has flare before laying out and drilling anything.

There is also doubt that the measurements are off the hand. From what I have read the speed is an average speed.
The Bowler ID specs you have listed show you as Extremely Rev dominant.
Are you a no-thumb bowler?
Do you consider yourself as being extremely Rev dominant?

Wood is a much higher friction surface than synthetics. Weaker coverstocks will serve you better on the wood. Not that you can't use weaker covers on the the synthetics. THS conditions will always have some friction to work with.

I try not to make ball recommendations. I do not sell bowling balls nor am I here to pimp manufacturers products. Also I don't know what your favorite color is.

I will be more than glad to help you out with layouts when you choose the balls.
How many balls are you thinking for your arsenal?
Eric Hartwell

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PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

TonyPR
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Re: New arsenal build

Post by TonyPR » March 13th, 2019, 4:29 am

Eric Hartwell is the layout guru here, those who follow his advice always end up happy.

I also don’t promote any brand but since my buddy who is also a youth coach in the league I coach is on staff with Track and a two hander too, I get to try most of the EBI new releases.

I am also very rev dominant but with less tilt 7* and rotation 45* and lately I have been loving my Web Tour X x 4.75 x 45 with 360/500/2000 surface. The ball is very versatile, haven’t tried it on wood though. I bowl league on a Pro Anvil high volume 40’ 10:1 house shot but have practiced on a burn on the same house and also on WTBA sport shots. I can get that ball to the pocket with different adjustments using different lines from straight up the second arrow to sliding on 42 lofting and crossing the whole lane, ball is silky smooth (as advertised). Definitely a middle of the road controllable reaction for rev dominant players. I like it so much I may end up drilling another one with a stronger layout and rougher surface.

Anyway, after selecting a good benchmark/middle of the road ball like above you can get a longer and snappier one for less oil such as a Vibe, Destiny Pearl or Tundra and a stronger asymmetrical like a Precision or a Choice Pearl. Want something in between the benchmark and stronger asymmetrical? The Rohdman Pearl or GB3 Pearl could be a good choice. If your playing more on the drier conditions then two lower end balls might be better, something like a Destiny Pearl and a Turbo R could be a good 1-2 punch for drier conditions. Finally I just made the switch from plastic to a 4000 grit Black Hammer as my spare ball, if you can kill your axis rotation (release end over end) for your spares, a urethane is a very versatile spare ball.

Hope this helps, I am sure Eric (MegaMav) can also give you great recommendations from Radical. The Intel Pearl seems like it could really work on dry, Bowling this Month gave it it’s maximum length rating of 20.

nwohbowler
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Re: New arsenal build

Post by nwohbowler » March 13th, 2019, 2:37 pm

EricHartwell wrote: First off your PAP as measured with the Bowler ID is for a non-flaring ball. I would not use it for drilling any ball with substantial flare.
Find your PAP on a ball that has flare before laying out and drilling anything.

There is also doubt that the measurements are off the hand. From what I have read the speed is an average speed.
The Bowler ID specs you have listed show you as Extremely Rev dominant.
Are you a no-thumb bowler?
Do you consider yourself as being extremely Rev dominant?

Wood is a much higher friction surface than synthetics. Weaker coverstocks will serve you better on the wood. Not that you can't use weaker covers on the the synthetics. THS conditions will always have some friction to work with.

I try not to make ball recommendations. I do not sell bowling balls nor am I here to pimp manufacturers products. Also I don't know what your favorite color is.

I will be more than glad to help you out with layouts when you choose the balls.
How many balls are you thinking for your arsenal?
The off the hand speed was from the Specto and the average is from the Bowler ID. I think that's why the average speed of the Bowler ID is a bit lower. How would I go about getting my pap with the Widow Legend I just got? It definitely flares quite a bit. I am not a no thumb bowler, I have my thumb in the ball. I know I have more revs than speed, but part of that is from having to slow down my approach because when I bought a new pair of bowling shoes I started sticking bad. I'm trying to adjust that a bit, but I don't expect to pick up more than 1/2 to 1 mph on my speed if anything. As for number of balls I'm looking to pick up, probably 2 right now. I have a DV8 Outcast that is drilled for pretty much no hook that works well on light/dry and the Widow Legend I have works pretty well a step up from that on medium. So really what I think I may need is something that works well on heavy and something pearl as an option. I've been looking at some used Motiv and may pick up a Tribal and a Jackal Rising because they seem to fit the 2 catagories I'm looking for. In the future I may pick up a urethane, but I don't know how important that is right now.
Right handed
Rev Rate 420s
Ball speed at release 17
Axis point 6 3/16" and 1" up
Tilt 17 degrees
Rotation 70 degrees

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Re: New arsenal build

Post by nwohbowler » March 13th, 2019, 2:46 pm

TonyPR wrote:Eric Hartwell is the layout guru here, those who follow his advice always end up happy.

I also don’t promote any brand but since my buddy who is also a youth coach in the league I coach is on staff with Track and a two hander too, I get to try most of the EBI new releases.

I am also very rev dominant but with less tilt 7* and rotation 45* and lately I have been loving my Web Tour X x 4.75 x 45 with 360/500/2000 surface. The ball is very versatile, haven’t tried it on wood though. I bowl league on a Pro Anvil high volume 40’ 10:1 house shot but have practiced on a burn on the same house and also on WTBA sport shots. I can get that ball to the pocket with different adjustments using different lines from straight up the second arrow to sliding on 42 lofting and crossing the whole lane, ball is silky smooth (as advertised). Definitely a middle of the road controllable reaction for rev dominant players. I like it so much I may end up drilling another one with a stronger layout and rougher surface.

Anyway, after selecting a good benchmark/middle of the road ball like above you can get a longer and snappier one for less oil such as a Vibe, Destiny Pearl or Tundra and a stronger asymmetrical like a Precision or a Choice Pearl. Want something in between the benchmark and stronger asymmetrical? The Rohdman Pearl or GB3 Pearl could be a good choice. If your playing more on the drier conditions then two lower end balls might be better, something like a Destiny Pearl and a Turbo R could be a good 1-2 punch for drier conditions. Finally I just made the switch from plastic to a 4000 grit Black Hammer as my spare ball, if you can kill your axis rotation (release end over end) for your spares, a urethane is a very versatile spare ball.

Hope this helps, I am sure Eric (MegaMav) can also give you great recommendations from Radical. The Intel Pearl seems like it could really work on dry, Bowling this Month gave it it’s maximum length rating of 20.
Thanks for the input, I've always liked hammer, but with the newer manufacturers out there I was curious about those as well. Which is why I've been looking at Motiv and also look into Radical as well. That said, it may be more beneficial to stick with a company I know has worked for me in the past. Until picking up a used No Rules and getting the new Widow Legend I haven't had anything asymmetrical before. I did learn out to flatten out for my spare shots prior to leaving the sport, but I am having trouble getting that technique back. That said, I don't have much trouble using the Outcast on right side spares with my current release. I may be overthinking and/or getting in over my head by jumping straight into single sweepers on sport patterns and trying to wade into replacing my equipment at the same time.... but I've always been the type to go all in when getting into *or back into* a sport or hobby.
Right handed
Rev Rate 420s
Ball speed at release 17
Axis point 6 3/16" and 1" up
Tilt 17 degrees
Rotation 70 degrees

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Re: New arsenal build

Post by TonyPR » March 13th, 2019, 6:12 pm

Picking up your spares with a weak reactive like the Outcast can often be a better choice than urethane. I just like urethane because it’s easy to keep the pocket for me but what I meant to say is if you can pick up spares consistently with balls other than plastic you get one less space occupied in your bag.

Word of advice for urethane, I don’t know why they advertise them for drier conditions, they are more useful on sport shots or for specific types of players. Weaker reactives are much better for drier/wood/more friction conditions. Storm Tropicals, Ebonite Turbo R, Motiv has the Hydra which I haven’t rolled but have heard great things, and my favorite the original Track Tundra.

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Re: New arsenal build

Post by nwohbowler » March 14th, 2019, 1:17 pm

TonyPR wrote:Picking up your spares with a weak reactive like the Outcast can often be a better choice than urethane. I just like urethane because it’s easy to keep the pocket for me but what I meant to say is if you can pick up spares consistently with balls other than plastic you get one less space occupied in your bag.

Word of advice for urethane, I don’t know why they advertise them for drier conditions, they are more useful on sport shots or for specific types of players. Weaker reactives are much better for drier/wood/more friction conditions. Storm Tropicals, Ebonite Turbo R, Motiv has the Hydra which I haven’t rolled but have heard great things, and my favorite the original Track Tundra.
Ok, good. I mean, I don't have a problem with picking up a urethane at some point, but being able to put it off while I look at more important areas is great too. I used to have a plastic ball that I used for spares but that disappeared somewhere during the 10 year break. I was able to pick up a cheap Tribal yesterday for $30 that is allowing me to try out both a pearlized and pin down ball. I've never thrown a Pin down layout before, but I liked the idea because I thought it may tame the skid snappiness pearls tend to have. It had a switch grip sleeve so I was able to throw it last night even though it was obvious the pitch was a bit off and the span was probably close to an inch short. I had some pretty good luck and overall liked the shape it provided, but I don't really know how much effect moving the thumb back to the correct spot will make yet. If it still works pretty much the same I'll only need a good really strong ball to round out my arsenal for now.
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Rev Rate 420s
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Axis point 6 3/16" and 1" up
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EricHartwell
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Re: New arsenal build

Post by EricHartwell » March 14th, 2019, 9:19 pm

I have your sweetspot at 105* Totals, 1.25:1 Ratio

Asymmetrical layouts
Totally Strong ................. 55-5-30
Midlane ......................... 40-4.5-45
Benchmark .................... 60-4.25-45
Long and Strong ............ 80-4-45
Control ......................... 60-4-65
low flare ....................... 80-2-45

Symmetrical Layouts
Benchmark .................... xx-4-40
Control ......................... xx-4.5-60
low flare (short pin) ....... xx-2-40
low flare (long pin) ......... xx-5-40

This list of layouts is a starting point. Ball choice should be considered before actually choosing a layout.
Eric Hartwell

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Re: New arsenal build

Post by nwohbowler » March 14th, 2019, 9:47 pm

EricHartwell wrote:I have your sweetspot at 105* Totals, 1.25:1 Ratio

Asymmetrical layouts
Totally Strong ................. 55-5-30
Midlane ......................... 40-4.5-45
Benchmark .................... 60-4.25-45
Long and Strong ............ 80-4-45
Control ......................... 60-4-65
low flare ....................... 80-2-45

Symmetrical Layouts
Benchmark .................... xx-4-40
Control ......................... xx-4.5-60
low flare (short pin) ....... xx-2-40
low flare (long pin) ......... xx-5-40

This list of layouts is a starting point. Ball choice should be considered before actually choosing a layout.
Thank you for the layouts. Now I just need to find the right ball for extra heavy conditions and see which one would be best. I would assume that throwing the absolute strongest layout on a ball that's already known to be extra strong would be overkill, correct?
**edit** I have been looking at trying to pick up a Jackal Ghost or Rising. That or possibly a strong ball from Radical. I'm really intrigued with these new brands that weren't around when I bowled before.
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Rev Rate 420s
Ball speed at release 17
Axis point 6 3/16" and 1" up
Tilt 17 degrees
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EricHartwell
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Medium Oil Ball: Motiv Villain, Hammer Nail, Brunswick True Motion
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Columbia Nitrous
Location: Michigan

Re: New arsenal build

Post by EricHartwell » March 14th, 2019, 10:47 pm

nwohbowler wrote:
Thank you for the layouts. Now I just need to find the right ball for extra heavy conditions and see which one would be best. I would assume that throwing the absolute strongest layout on a ball that's already known to be extra strong would be overkill, correct?
**edit** I have been looking at trying to pick up a Jackal Ghost or Rising. That or possibly a strong ball from Radical. I'm really intrigued with these new brands that weren't around when I bowled before.
You are correct about strong ball and strong layout being overkill Unless you are adding a very condition specific ball for a 48' pattern or maybe for poorly maintained lanes with lots of carry down.
If you didn't have such a strong release then it would be different.

The Benchmark is a Strong layout and could serve you well on a Strong ball. This kind of set up is not for the THS conditions, It is just too strong and forces you in deep on the fresh. It is more for the longer sport/challenge conditions. I usually recommend the Long and Strong, Control and low flare layouts for the THS condition.
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Re: New arsenal build

Post by snick » March 15th, 2019, 7:10 am

I recommend the Storm Physix for long patterns. 55x5x30
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Re: New arsenal build

Post by nwohbowler » March 15th, 2019, 2:19 pm

snick wrote:I recommend the Storm Physix for long patterns. 55x5x30
Interesting, so the strongest layout. Is that because it's a hybrid cover so it can handle that strong of a layout without being too much?
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Re: New arsenal build

Post by snick » March 15th, 2019, 6:44 pm

This ball comes to life with strong layouts. Long patterns play like easy street.
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Re: New arsenal build

Post by nwohbowler » March 21st, 2019, 6:34 pm

EricHartwell wrote:I have your sweetspot at 105* Totals, 1.25:1 Ratio

Asymmetrical layouts
Totally Strong ................. 55-5-30
Midlane ......................... 40-4.5-45
Benchmark .................... 60-4.25-45
Long and Strong ............ 80-4-45
Control ......................... 60-4-65
low flare ....................... 80-2-45

Symmetrical Layouts
Benchmark .................... xx-4-40
Control ......................... xx-4.5-60
low flare (short pin) ....... xx-2-40
low flare (long pin) ......... xx-5-40

This list of layouts is a starting point. Ball choice should be considered before actually choosing a layout.
Based on your layout suggestions here, and how well the Black Widow Legend has been working for me as of late *threw a 299 and 268 last night* what would you suggest as a good layout for the Widow Black/Gold? Based on BTM information it should basically be just a stronger version of the Legend, so I'm hoping it would be a good step up for slicker/longer oiled lanes. Or, am I completely off on this thought?
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Re: New arsenal build

Post by EricHartwell » March 21st, 2019, 9:13 pm

nwohbowler wrote: Based on your layout suggestions here, and how well the Black Widow Legend has been working for me as of late *threw a 299 and 268 last night* what would you suggest as a good layout for the Widow Black/Gold? Based on BTM information it should basically be just a stronger version of the Legend, so I'm hoping it would be a good step up for slicker/longer oiled lanes. Or, am I completely off on this thought?
What layout is on the Legend?
I would want to complement it for oilier conditions.
If you are unsure on the layout numbers, post a picture and I will evaluate it.
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Re: New arsenal build

Post by nwohbowler » March 22nd, 2019, 12:11 am

EricHartwell wrote: What layout is on the Legend?
I would want to complement it for oilier conditions.
If you are unsure on the layout numbers, post a picture and I will evaluate it.
They told me it was a 4x4x2 when they drilled it. I'm not sure if my span is important in the layout, but it's 5 to middle and 5 1/16 to ring.
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Right handed
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Axis point 6 3/16" and 1" up
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Medium Oil Ball: Motiv Villain, Hammer Nail, Brunswick True Motion
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Columbia Nitrous
Location: Michigan

Re: New arsenal build

Post by EricHartwell » March 22nd, 2019, 1:16 am

4x4x2= 42-4-35
I did model the layout and it looks accurate.

This is in between Totally Strong and Midlane layout Ratio with the Long and Strong pin to PAP. It is a Strong Hybrid layout that is slightly outside your Range I listed with the Basic arsenal. The shorter pin to PAP is making the smaller totals usable for you. Im guessing you are playing deeper to keep it in the oil.

For something Stronger to put on the Black and Gold I suggest using a similar Ratio and total but utilizing a Stronger Pin to PAP. 45-5-35
Use surface adjustments to separate them further if needed.
The longer pin to PAP is to get the ball to roll sooner not hook more.
If you want more hook I have other ideas.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
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Re: New arsenal build

Post by nwohbowler » March 22nd, 2019, 1:28 am

EricHartwell wrote:4x4x2= 42-4-35
I did model the layout and it looks accurate.

This is in between Totally Strong and Midlane layout Ratio with the Long and Strong pin to PAP. It is a Strong Hybrid layout that is slightly outside your Range I listed with the Basic arsenal. The shorter pin to PAP is making the smaller totals usable for you. Im guessing you are playing deeper to keep it in the oil.

For something Stronger to put on the Black and Gold I suggest using a similar Ratio and total but utilizing a Stronger Pin to PAP. 45-5-35
Use surface adjustments to separate them further if needed.
The longer pin to PAP is to get the ball to roll sooner not hook more.
If you want more hook I have other ideas.

I do tend to keep inside, typically crossing between 20 and 15 out to around 5 depending on the conditions.
I tend to not mess with surface much, is that something that I have to keep up on pretty often? Just as an option, what would the ideas for more hook be? It will probably be a little bit before I can purchase the next ball, so I'm really trying to take my time and make the best decision I can to make the money spent worthwhile.
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Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Columbia Nitrous
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Re: New arsenal build

Post by EricHartwell » March 22nd, 2019, 1:56 am

More hook for Longer oil is not the best option, just saying.

To get more hook than the Legend you need to get the reaction to happen further down the lane and not start up in the oil.
For this I would modify the the Totally Strong layout with a shorter pin to PAP. 55-4-30
It will be more backend with a slightly more angular hook zone.
This will probably need a duller surface than the factory shine for longer oil.
Eric Hartwell

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PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
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330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

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Re: New arsenal build

Post by nwohbowler » March 22nd, 2019, 2:01 am

EricHartwell wrote:More hook for Longer oil is not the best option, just saying.

To get more hook than the Legend you need to get the reaction to happen further down the lane and not start up in the oil.
For this I would modify the the Totally Strong layout with a shorter pin to PAP. 55-4-30
It will be more backend with a slightly more angular hook zone.
This will probably need a duller surface than the factory shine for longer oil.
Interesting, so for long oil a ball that starts up sooner is wanted over a stronger hooking layout? I really don't typically do well with angular breaking balls, so I would guess that it probably wouldn't match up well with my style.... I will probably stick with the initial suggestion you had if that will match up better with my preference for arc/strong arc break.
Right handed
Rev Rate 420s
Ball speed at release 17
Axis point 6 3/16" and 1" up
Tilt 17 degrees
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