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 Post subject: Re: Layout advice needed
 Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:03 pm Post Number: #61 Post
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I apologize for the tone, it’s not my intent to come off that way. Point is, he can’t even describe himself as bowler. All he knows is that he has medium speed and only knows his pap after lengthy discussions with a PSO who didn’t give him what he asked for (completely warranted). My poor attempt was to try to get him to move past the PSO mistakes and figure out his game so he can play the straighter lines. To me, the balls aren’t trash the way he had them drilled.

As far as the elite layout, to me, is the low flare layout because it’s very specific to a condition and not as versatile as the other layouts. I don’t think he’s at that stage in his game where he needs to have all of his equipment neutered for a THS.

Again, apologies for the tone.

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 Post subject: Re: Layout advice needed
 Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:13 pm Post Number: #62 Post
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Hey Boomer, and nwohbowler.

I appreciate you guys replying here. I was actually in the process of typing a reply to Boyd, when I saw your replies. I'm happy I'm not the only one who felt the way he replied came off a bit aggressive. Almost as if I was the one in the wrong over all of this. I'm not here to play the "poor" me game.

I came here for suggestions, help, and to vent some of my recent frustrations with my PSO. Which I feel I have the right to, and mostly everyone I seen who has posted, agreed with I had to say in that regard. My whole thing is this. As bowler's we learn to adjust our game to how the lanes are playing, minute by minute. Which I have zero problem with.

However when you get a ball, have a layout in mind. Which you have a good picture in your mind on what type of ball motion you will be getting. You take it to whoever you pick to drill it. You ask them if they can do it, as it's your right as a customer to ask for something to be done a certain way. At the same time, it's their right to either say, Yes, or No. Which in my case my PSO, agreed to do. We all know the result's of that.

So you telling me to adjust my game even more to fit a ball that was drilled wrong. I feel is a unfair comment to make. I didn't ask for a stronger pin to pap distance layout. So I shouldn't have to adjust my game to the point of having to move farther left, and even change my hand position, to get the ball to properly hit the 1-3 pocket.

As for getting comfortable with moving more left, and playing more open angles. Between the way he drilled the Choice ball, and now the Turmoil. With the right surface adjustment, I bet I could do that now. Still that wasn't what I asked him to do. So you telling me to adjust my game for his mistakes, I don't take that very kindly, to be honest with you.


Now if you want to discuss, and talk about hand position adjustments. Lets do it... I don't mind discussing anything you might feel will improve my game. Like I mentioned above I seen the hand position article before, and I use two of them hand positions regularly. Which I know there's like 4-6 of them. But honestly I haven't tried them all, to know when to use each one, to benefit my game. I know Norm Duke is a master of hand positions. There's a good reason he's still able to win titles against these super high rev rate, and two hand bowlers. I was actually very happy for him winning back to back titles, just recently. The little man knows how to bowl, and use hand positions to be successful in today's game. You don't see many guys throwing their main ball at 10 pins like he does, and be as successful doing it.


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 Post subject: Re: Layout advice needed
 Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:27 pm Post Number: #63 Post
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44boyd wrote:
I apologize for the tone, it’s not my intent to come off that way. Point is, he can’t even describe himself as bowler. All he knows is that he has medium speed and only knows his pap after lengthy discussions with a PSO who didn’t give him what he asked for (completely warranted). My poor attempt was to try to get him to move past the PSO mistakes and figure out his game so he can play the straighter lines. To me, the balls aren’t trash the way he had them drilled.

As far as the elite layout, to me, is the low flare layout because it’s very specific to a condition and not as versatile as the other layouts. I don’t think he’s at that stage in his game where he needs to have all of his equipment neutered for a THS.

Again, apologies for the tone.


Hey Boyd,

I honestly don't want any hard feelings, between me, and you. Yes I felt that last reply came off a bit aggressive towards me. Which I commented about that in my recent post, just a few minutes ago.

As for gearing my equipment towards a THS. Currently I bowl at a local alley, once a week. I have a area I like to play. So yes my intention was to gear a couple ball's to play a certain way. If I was to start bowling somewhere else, or bowl tournaments. I wouldn't expect some of the balls I got drilled to match up well with certain patterns, and such.

With that said, I understand you were trying to keep me from having a couple ball's setup to only play a THS a certain way. Well that's my plan currently. I want to be more to the right side of the lane, with straighter angles. I'm not looking to stand left, throw the ball far right for a big angular ball motion on the backend. I want a nice smooth arcing ball motion, one that will let me blend the wet/dry a bit, when playing to the right.

As for explaining more about the type of bowler I am. If you have any questions you want answered, ask away. I don't bite, and I hope I never came off that way. Yes it will be a couple more week's before I get all my bowling spec numbers for you guys. I plan to give you guys all the numbers.

I honestly want Eric, or any of the guys who suggestion layouts here. To take my numbers, and give me what they think will be best for asymm, and symm balls, for strong, to weaker low flare layouts.


EDIT: I was looking over the image layout Eric posted on page three of the Choice ball. From looking at that layout. That layout seems to me something that would be good using the middle part of the lane. As it seems that ball would play nice in the oil. Am I wrong about that? The layout is 45x3 1/2x20. To me that layout seems to favor oil.


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 Post subject: Re: Layout advice needed
 Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:31 pm Post Number: #64 Post
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Sorry I’ve been in the Air Force 23 years and can be direct sometimes, it comes with the job. Do you consider yourself a high rev bowler? How much rotation is on the ball the way you like to throw it? Do you hear the finger/thumb holes thumping as it goes down lane? Do you hit up (lift) on the ball or do you pop it like a yo-yo? What is the motion you see at the back of the lane? Do you go Brooklyn a lot or does your ball come in light? When you try to play straight, what line are you trying to hit? What does your ball do? Have you tried rolling it straight down 15, what happens? 10, what happens? 5, what happens? Are you good at hitting your targets?

Not all lanes play the same, so making adjustments and learning to read the ball motion lets you know if you’re in the wrong ball and/or wrong part of the lane.

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 Post subject: Re: Layout advice needed
 Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:46 pm Post Number: #65 Post
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44boyd wrote:
Sorry I’ve been in the Air Force 23 years and can be direct sometimes, it comes with the job. Do you consider yourself a high rev bowler? How much rotation is on the ball the way you like to throw it? Do you hear the finger/thumb holes thumping as it goes down lane? Do you hit up (lift) on the ball or do you pop it like a yo-yo? What is the motion you see at the back of the lane? Do you go Brooklyn a lot or does your ball come in light? When you try to play straight, what line are you trying to hit? What does your ball do? Have you tried rolling it straight down 15, what happens? 10, what happens? 5, what happens? Are you good at hitting your targets?

Not all lanes play the same, so making adjustments and learning to read the ball motion lets you know if you’re in the wrong ball and/or wrong part of the lane.


Well the high rev thing, I want to say I get a fair bit of revs on the ball. Close to two years ago, I went from no thumb, to using a thumb in the ball now. With that, I still find myself keeping my hand under the ball more thru out my swing, as don't feel my swing is as free as it could be due to old habits, of not using a thumb, having to keep my hand under the ball. I don't want to say I'm rev dominate... But I feel I get a good amount of revs on the ball in general still.

As for rotation, If i was to guess, I don't know what is considered an average range, but I would probably put myself in that range. In a couple weeks I will be able to give you a better ideal on that info. As for hearing the ball rolling over the thumb hole. I only hear that at times on my spare ball. I had a storm mix urethane ball, that has a tiny pancake weight block in it. That ball I did have issues with it rolling over the holes, if I didn't throw it a certain way. that ball seemed to flare like crazy. I was actually given that ball, and so it wasn't originally drilled for me. Pretty sure the PSO just plugged it, and drilled my hand measurements based off where it was previously drilled.

As for lifting, or yo-yo'ing when releasing. I feel it's more lifting. However recently I have been thinking of trying to practice more of a yo-yo type release.

What type of ball motion do I see at the back end of the lane. Well when I do have issues off the breakpoint, the ball is coming off the spot to hard, and goes left. I think my ball speed sometimes hurts me in that area. Another reason I mentioned before the 3 1/2-4 1/4 pin locations seem to be rather strong for me off the spot. To the point having my feet far enough left is key, or it's brooklyn type hits. The only time I feel like I have light hits, or just miss the pocket, I threw a bad ball off my hand, which often times gets to far to the right, and can't recover. I don't feel getting my ball's to hook is an issue overall though.

As for playing straight, this is where I feel I have lead you guys a bit wrong, and I will take blame for that. I rarely play super straight angles, and when I do, it's because the outside part of the lane is playing slick. Which does happen a decent bit with these newer lanes. If I was to give you an area of my sweet spot I like to play, at the arrows I would be aiming between 12-15 board, out to about 5-8 board at the breakpoint. As for my feet at the approach, I like to stay no worst then 20 most the time. However I dunno if this is odd.. But when I go to line my feet up. I line up based off the outside edge of my right foot. I'm right handed as well.

I have lined up at times trying to throw straight up the five board down the whole lane. Same with going up the 10 board. I don't ever recall trying to throw the ball straight down the 15 board though. In terms of accuracy hitting my spots on the lane, I wouldn't say I'm bad at it. But I wouldn't consider myself great at it either. So lets just call it average.

Anyways some of what I typed might come off as a bit confusing. I wouldn't say i'm the best at explaining myself as a bowler. However I typed my answers as honest as I could be. Never one to try to lie about anything. But I do feel I lead you guys into thinking I wanted to play super straight up the right side of the lane. That isn't the case, I just want to play smaller arcing angles up the right side of the lane.

If I was to go off the ball motion chart I have seen online, I want "Continuous" motion. The biggest problem I have right now, is some of the ball's I currently have. Get a bit jumpy off the breakpoint, causing split's, or even brooklyn's at times. Which is why I wanted to try to get away from the 3 1/2-4 1/4 pin to pap distances on a couple of symmetrical balls I have. As the Pink Frost has a .040 Diff, and the Turmoil Solid has .042 Diff. So my thought process was to use a low flaring pin distance, thinking it will help smooth out the breakpoint. If the low flaring pin position did cause me to play a bit straighter as well, I was fine doing that to. Again I don't mind opinions on my way of thinking about this. If you feel i'm off in what i'm thinking, and expecting, feel free to jump in, and share your thought's.


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 Post subject: Re: Layout advice needed
 Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:26 pm Post Number: #66 Post
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That tells a bunch, and I think your Turmoil should be good moving in if you create enough angle at the front to give it time to recover. But back to straight, most no thumb bowlers have low tilt which causes the ball to read/move early. Does your ball seem to hook (start going left) before it gets to where you want downlane before it goes left?

The Tatic Control with a longer pin to pap might be worth drilling to keep you to the right.

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 Post subject: Re: Layout advice needed
 Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:54 pm Post Number: #67 Post
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44boyd wrote:
That tells a bunch, and I think your Turmoil should be good moving in if you create enough angle at the front to give it time to recover. But back to straight, most no thumb bowlers have low tilt which causes the ball to read/move early. Does your ball seem to hook (start going left) before it gets to where you want downlane before it goes left?

The Tatic Control with a longer pin to pap might be worth drilling to keep you to the right.


Well I have both the Turmoil and my Pink ball highly polished, and plan to see how they both act tomorrow. Since they both have the same layout on them. I expect the Solid to be stronger, as it's a stronger ball overall. So if the Pink ball isn't hooking enough, or carrying very well. I will try using the Turmoil. I really want to see how close I can get the turmoil to my Pink ball. Get a good ideal tomorrow of that.

As for does the ball seem to hook, and go left before I want it down lane. Yes that's an issue I face at times. Causes me split's a decent amount when it happens. As everything will seem good, and next thing I know, it's jumping hard going left before I wanted it to. When this happens, it leaves me a bit clueless, as I will feel I threw a good ball, got it to a good spot down lane, just bad end result. If/when I throw a bad ball, I will quickly say it's on me. Not one to blame the ball, or lanes, if I throw a piss poor shot.

I have zero doubt if the Tactic Control had a bit longer of a pin to pap distance, it would be very good for me. Just its current state of the pin being damn near on my PAP. It's hard to get it to carry ten pins, I feel I carry ten pins a bit better with it, when I focus getting around the side of the ball more. I'm pretty sure I asked for a 2 1/2 inch pin to pap distance on it, when I had it drilled. When he drilled this ball, I wasn't yet aware of my PAP info. Once I got that info, I quickly understood why the ball doesn't carry well for me.


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 Post subject: Re: Layout advice needed
 Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:20 pm Post Number: #68 Post
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I lost respect for Mr Shockley when I first saw this video.
Seeing it again I wish there was a way to block content.

A lower average bowler with a poor layout will develop poor habits trying to make it roll with a more optimum shape that is not designed into the layout.
It is a disservice to many a beginner to have them trying to roll a ball in a style that does not fit them.
There are low tilt bowlers that just can not deliver a ball with substantial tilt.
There are high tilt bowlers that can not deliver a ball with lower tilt.
Then to put them into a ball drilled not towards their style will not net help them in my opinion.

Does the layout need to be fine tuned to the degree, no. But it needs to be at least close.
I had a driller at one time that would offer 1 free lesson with the purchase of a ball.
That lesson consisted of making you change your release to fit the drilling he put on the ball. Pathetic.

When a drilling is correct all you have to do is roll the ball with your natural release and it works(period).
No change to your release necessary.
Now all you have to do is play the lanes properly and hit your marks.

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 Post subject: Re: Layout advice needed
 Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:38 pm Post Number: #69 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:
I lost respect for Mr Shockley when I first saw this video.
Seeing it again I wish there was a way to block content.

A lower average bowler with a poor layout will develop poor habits trying to make it roll with a more optimum shape that is not designed into the layout.
It is a disservice to many a beginner to have them trying to roll a ball in a style that does not fit them.
There are low tilt bowlers that just can not deliver a ball with substantial tilt.
There are high tilt bowlers that can not deliver a ball with lower tilt.
Then to put them into a ball drilled not towards their style will not net help them in my opinion.

Does the layout need to be fine tuned to the degree, no. But it needs to be at least close.
I had a driller at one time that would offer 1 free lesson with the purchase of a ball.
That lesson consisted of making you change your release to fit the drilling he put on the ball. Pathetic.

When a drilling is correct all you have to do is roll the ball with your natural release and it works(period).
No change to your release necessary.
Now all you have to do is play the lanes properly and hit your marks.

I was really hoping someone knowledgeable would say something like that because I really really didn't like what he was saying in that video.

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Ball speed at release 17
Axis point 6 3/16" and 1" up
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 Post subject: Re: Layout advice needed
 Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:04 pm Post Number: #70 Post
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Curious Bowler - Why don't you post a video of your self throwing a few shots (I didn't go back to be sure you haven' already done this). See the link below for instructions on how to shoot the video, for Jim's coaching purposes only one ball side and back side view is requested, but for us in this forum multiples might be helpful.

A picture is worth 1000 words and a video is 1000's of pictures. -- JohnP


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 Post subject: Re: Layout advice needed
 Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:25 pm Post Number: #71 Post
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Hey JohnP,

This was something I was planning to do soon, and I agree video does help a lot. If I go practicing Saturday morning, I will try to take a couple video's of me throwing the ball, and try to upload to youtube, as that seems to be the quickest, and likely easy place to do so.


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 Post subject: Re: Layout advice needed
 Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:17 pm Post Number: #72 Post
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That works for us, but if you want Jim to analyze them they should be posted in the "Certified Coaching" forum using his specifications for filming. -- JohnP


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 Post subject: Re: Layout advice needed
 Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2019 5:12 pm Post Number: #73 Post
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Hey JohnP,

I gotcha, and understand. I looked over there, and seen the two angle shots he wants. The back view shouldn't be hard to get. However the side view, might take a little longer to get. As often times when I'm bowling, or practicing it's pretty crowded at the alley. However I think I could talk with management, and might be able to get them to put me a couple lanes away from anyone. Either way, when I do get something to share, I will likely post it in here, and create a thread over there if needed. Anyways I appreciate the help, and suggestion.


Well tonight is league night for me, and honestly I wasn't planning on bringing the Choice ball with me tonight. As I feel it's drilled to be used more to the inside part of the lane. However I ended up saying the hell with it, and I'm now gonna bring it with me. I did have it highly polished as well. But knowing I have both my Pink Frost, and Turmoil already both polished. I decided to take the Choice ball down to 2000, and throw it a couple times tonight, to see where I can play with it. I also threw a couple sanding pads in my bag as well. Just in case I need to scuf the polished surface off the balls, if they're acting funky at the breakpoint during warm up time before league starts. Because for one I haven't thrown the Turmoil hardly at all, and I have no ideal how it will handle being polished for me. So I have a couple pads just in case.

Overall I'm going into league tonight with a clearer mind, with all the recent drilling issues behind me. With the help of some of you in this thread. I now have a better ideal on what to expect from my balls, in terms of ball motion. Because I now know the type of layouts the PSO put on each of my balls. I think knowing this info will help me out a good amount. As before I had an ideal in my mind based off the layouts I asked him to put on my balls, that the overall ball motion would be a bit different. But the layouts were no where close to what I was expecting. So often times when I threw these balls expecting something else, and they didn't do that. I let it bother me. Now I feel I can have a better mindset while bowling. Which yes I will likely have to adjust my game a bit more now. But I now understand the reasoning behind that.


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 Post subject: Re: Layout advice needed
 Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:10 pm Post Number: #74 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:
I lost respect for Mr Shockley when I first saw this video.
Seeing it again I wish there was a way to block content.

A lower average bowler with a poor layout will develop poor habits trying to make it roll with a more optimum shape that is not designed into the layout.
It is a disservice to many a beginner to have them trying to roll a ball in a style that does not fit them.
There are low tilt bowlers that just can not deliver a ball with substantial tilt.
There are high tilt bowlers that can not deliver a ball with lower tilt.
Then to put them into a ball drilled not towards their style will not net help them in my opinion.

Does the layout need to be fine tuned to the degree, no. But it needs to be at least close.
I had a driller at one time that would offer 1 free lesson with the purchase of a ball.
That lesson consisted of making you change your release to fit the drilling he put on the ball. Pathetic.

When a drilling is correct all you have to do is roll the ball with your natural release and it works(period).
No change to your release necessary.
Now all you have to do is play the lanes properly and hit your marks.

Got it, it's not the bowler that needs to be improved, it's the layout.

Exhibit A why bowling's not going to be in the Olympics.

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 Post subject: Re: Layout advice needed
 Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:00 am Post Number: #75 Post
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Well I just got home from league a little bit ago. My thought's from tonight overall. Well I did end up throwing a couple practice games before league tonight. I probably got around 7, or so frames with all 3 balls. My newest ball, the Turmoil. I was a bit off with it, and overall feeling my way with it tonight.

During the ten minutes we get before league starts, I threw the Turmoil a good amount, and threw the Pink ball a couple times. During that time, I still wasn't able to get myself lined up well. As the lanes seemed to be playing pretty dry down lane.

So league started, and I started with the Turmoil. Things wasn't going well, as the ball was hooking to much down the lane. I started moving my feet left, still didn't feel comfortable. So I switched to my pink ball, thinking I throw it a lot, so my comfort level is much better with it. However I got a lot of the same results, while I continued moving more, and more left.

My first game ended with like a 154 I think. Not good at all. I think I might of struck one time the first game. Left the 3-6-10 3-4 times, with at least one split as well. So my second game started, I kept moving little by little left with my feet. Probably 12-15 boards total. Still never found anything close to good, regarding getting to the pocket. So 5th frame hit I had 76. 2nd frame open with greek church, 5th frame open with a 3-10. I actually thought I had it converted, somehow just missed clipping the 3 pin.

So after moving my feet I felt a lot for me, for a night, let alone one, and a half game. I didn't want to keep moving left opening my angles up big, as I know these lanes, if I did that, and had a ball here, or there leak a bit right out to around the 5 board. My ball would have zero chances to recover, and likely leave washout type stuff.

Knowing how dry things were acting down lane. I thought of my Tactic Control. So I pulled it out, took a guess, moved around 7 board left from where I normally throw, and to my surprised, my 6th frame to my first ball in the 10th, I struck every time. I did have to bump 1-2 boards more left, as a couple shots came in a bit high tripping the 4 pin out. My second ball in the 10th, I overthrew the ball, and got it out to probably the 3 board. No chance of getting to the pocket. Left a 1-2-4-8, converted it for a 213 game. Which was nice.

I finished the whole third game with it as well, had to move maybe 1 board during that time. I only left one 10 pin in one, and a half games. Which was shocking in a sense, but I wasn't shocked. As I knew how dry the backend was playing. So my last game, first frame threw a pretty good ball, which was my one 10 pin leave, a weak ten. Still the six pin just missed it bumping out the gutter, and I had a slow roller that just missed getting to it as well. after that I had a couple strikes put together, before I leaked one to far right again, leaving a washout. I converted it. went another 3 strikes, then 9th frame, leaked one a bit right again. Leaving a 1-2-4. Which I thought I threw a good ball at it, ended up over hooking leaving the damn 1 pin. Struck out in the tenth, for a 232.

So the Tactic Control was my saver the last one, and half games. Should of went to it sooner, but tried getting the Pink, and Turmoil ball to work. With how dry the backend's were playing. Having them polished, with their 3 3/4 pin distance, and smaller VAL angle. When they did hook, which was to far down the lane, on the super dry backend's tonight. they went left to hard, to quick. I needed them reading these lanes much earlier tonight. So next week, I might scuf the surface of them both to 3000-4000 grit. Hopefully tame the motion off the breakpoint, if they end up like this again.

Tonight was a shock on how dry they were down lane. My brother, who throws it much faster, while still getting good revs on the ball, struggled badly tonight. He never got lined up, and he averages like 207 himself. So normally i'm use to him adjusting, with his feet, and different balls. Which he did tonight as well. Still he never found a area to get to the pocket, and strike.


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 Post subject: Re: Layout advice needed
 Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:20 am Post Number: #76 Post
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What was your breakpoint when you moved in? Have you tried getting it to the right sooner so it’s a smoother breakpoint?

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 Post subject: Re: Layout advice needed
 Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:48 pm Post Number: #77 Post
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Hey Boyd,

As I moved farther left, I did try bumping in my breakpoint. I think the farthest I moved my breakpoint in was around the 12 board down lane. I did try to get it out to the right more, however you mentioned getting it out to the right quicker.

With them two balls polished, and me not being use to bumping in so far with my feet. I wasn't comfortable trying to push it out to the right quicker. As I was afraid of leaking it to far right, on a bad release, and it getting out near the 5 board. Because out there it is like hitting ice with your ball, it kills the balls motion back to the pocket.

I will say it would of likely been a good ideal trying to get the ball to the right sooner. However I can't remember the last time the lanes played this dry down lane. With that, I was already thinking a lot, and likely way to much. Reason I decided to change to my urethane ball, which matched up well with how dry things were playing down lane.

Being totally honest with you, I feel if I had thrown my Pink, or Turmoil ball, to the right quicker. I still think my ball reaction with them two balls, would of been to much over/under last night. We were bowling on the lower end of the house last night, and I had two people I know who were bowling on the high end of the house, and their lanes were playing slick they said. Which isn't shocking to me, as when we bowl on lanes 33-40, most the time they play more wet overall. We bowl on 39-40 next week, so I expect to bowl on lanes that play more oily then. Anyways I will keep that in mind to try getting the ball to the right quicker, next time I encounter such dry backends like last night.


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 Post subject: Re: Layout advice needed
 Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:42 pm Post Number: #78 Post
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delbowler wrote:
Got it, it's not the bowler that needs to be improved, it's the layout.

Exhibit A why bowling's not going to be in the Olympics.


Nice straw-man.

Not the point at all. What Eric said was you lay a ball out to fit the bowler - you don't need to change the bowler to fit the ball.

That's NOT to say that you don't work to increase the skill level of the bowler.

But look at the Buttorf guy (right spelling?) - awkward form, terrible approach, horrid wrist angle. I'm surprised his whole HAND doesn't fly down the lane - you think he's going to be successful with a low-tilt layout? C'mon. Don't change him - he has won more than you'll ever win, at what, 30? (get off ma lawn, ya punk! LOL)

Comparing a intermediate level athlete to an Olympic level athlete? C'mon.

I can ride a Cannondale or Felt bike and it won't make me an Olympic or TdF rider. In fact, I DO ride wheels made for the TdF (they're specifically cobble-stone rims - light weight but with 36 and 40 spokes) - do the help? Yes (mostly because at my peak fitness, I'm 250# and the tiny 10 spoke rims get CRUSHED under me - ask how I know) - but do they make me an elite cyclist? Obvious answer.

To bring to bowling - will drilling a Crux Prime to fit my delivery make me a PBA caliber bowler? Obvious answer. But will it give me a good tool for my toolbox? Yes. Will I be wasting a LOT of its potential? Probably. Will I get more from it than a Tropical Breeze? ROFL - I sincerely HOPE so.


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 Post subject: Re: Layout advice needed
 Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:51 pm Post Number: #79 Post
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CuriousBowler wrote:
Hey Boyd,

As I moved farther left, I did try bumping in my breakpoint. I think the farthest I moved my breakpoint in was around the 12 board down lane. I did try to get it out to the right more, however you mentioned getting it out to the right quicker.

With them two balls polished, and me not being use to bumping in so far with my feet. I wasn't comfortable trying to push it out to the right quicker. As I was afraid of leaking it to far right, on a bad release, and it getting out near the 5 board. Because out there it is like hitting ice with your ball, it kills the balls motion back to the pocket.

I will say it would of likely been a good ideal trying to get the ball to the right sooner. However I can't remember the last time the lanes played this dry down lane. With that, I was already thinking a lot, and likely way to much. Reason I decided to change to my urethane ball, which matched up well with how dry things were playing down lane.

Being totally honest with you, I feel if I had thrown my Pink, or Turmoil ball, to the right quicker. I still think my ball reaction with them two balls, would of been to much over/under last night. We were bowling on the lower end of the house last night, and I had two people I know who were bowling on the high end of the house, and their lanes were playing slick they said. Which isn't shocking to me, as when we bowl on lanes 33-40, most the time they play more wet overall. We bowl on 39-40 next week, so I expect to bowl on lanes that play more oily then. Anyways I will keep that in mind to try getting the ball to the right quicker, next time I encounter such dry backends like last night.


It sounds like you're at the point where you should start working on some flexibility. I resisted this for . . . a decade? I wanted to stand 20 (ish) and throw 10 out to 7-8 all day long. That was what I wanted to do. Period. Get myself balls that would do that and give me a bit different shape off the back end so I could stay there . . .

A: I couldn't afford it. LOL B: I'd be restricted to a very few conditions.

I watched the WSOB Scorpion and the Major - and saw O'Neill bowl both with RADICALLY different lines. Amazing, really.

I've been cultivating three lines. My comfort zone - 20-10-8 which works a lot of the time and I can use my two main balls (IQTP polished and Crux at 2000) to generally work at my main house. When the lanes are dry (which is not atypical) I've cultivated being able to move left in 3-2 moves (3 at foot, 2 at target) so I'm not shooting WAY right and at the gutter, I'm able to stay in the oil. With that I can get all the way over (and did just a few weeks ago - guess the center ran out of oil, lol) and targeted 20 out to about 13-15 breaking just before the pins. Now, however, I'm setting the ball down at 10, crossing 12 at the arrows and rolling into the pocket with my 500 grit Marvel S. (Guess they bought some oil, LOL)

In all three cases, I'm able to roll 600 or so. Not huge, but consistent. I'm HOPING that I'll be relaxed and able to take that flexibility to Vegas in a couple of weeks. :)

Anyway - just a thought to follow up.


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 Post subject: Re: Layout advice needed
 Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:30 pm Post Number: #80 Post
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Hey Boomer,

Trust me I have no issue working on my game, and honestly last night I tried adjusting for a game, and a half, before I switched to my urethane ball. There's a good chance I could of kept adjusting, and finally found me a spot. However I doubt I would of got close to 500 series for the night, if I did that.

Not to say my main focus was what I would bowl series wise, but we are bowling league, and don't want to completely fall flat on our face's adjusting with one ball thru three games, in which you're struggling to find the pocket consistently. I feel last night I made a lot of adjustments out of my "Comfort" zone. But there's a time to switch to another ball, which I did, and likely waited to long to do.

I had zero trust moving another 5-10 boards with my feet left last night. As I think I would of got to the point of hitting the pocket, however likely opening my angles up to big, causing me a over/under type reaction. With the old lanes we bowled on, I would of likely kept trying to move more left, and swinging it. However with these newer lanes at my center, there's a "hang" spot to the outer edge of the lane, which surprised me a bit when they first put these lanes in, throwing on a THS. Expecting the closer to the gutter the ball got, more friction it would run into down the lane. Yet it doesn't play that way. If you get it to the far right, you better get it there early, hope you still got plenty of hand on the ball, and the ball speed is slow. Because if not, you have no chance getting near the pocket.

Btw I'm not just saying that, to say it. I have talked with some of the other league bowlers, one's that bowl very well, and they feel the same way about how the outside edge of these lanes play slick, not dry. To tell you the truth, I have been told more then a couple times from others in the league, who have bowled all over. The local center I bowl at, with what is supposed to be just a THS. It's very challenging to figure out, from week to week.

There's a father, and son who bowl our league during the summer. They both left hander's who average 230-235, and last summer, which wasn't long after they put the new lanes in. Struggled a good bit, both there averages dropped by 20 pins. The one night we bowled them, I asked them about it, and how they were liking the new lanes they put in. Both told me this is one of the more challenging centers they bowl at, especially bowling league on what is said to be a THS.

Finally I will continue to work on my game, and get more in tune with my two main balls. I will be knocking the polish off both balls though. As last night, the polish may have help extend the balls length a bit, however the backends were so dry, the motion off the breakpoint was to violent to control, and hit the pocket consistently. At least for the two balls I started with. I really think if the Turmoil Solid would of been drilled with the 1 3/4 pin distance, and 60 VAL angle I asked my PSO to put on it. Last night I think it would of worked very well for me.


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