Layout advice needed

Which layout is right for me?

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44boyd
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Re: Layout advice needed

Post by 44boyd » March 21st, 2019, 4:49 pm

So taking the drama out, I think the short pin and large VAL angle would be a turd unless you’re trying to duplicate a urethane motion.
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Re: Layout advice needed

Post by CuriousBowler » March 21st, 2019, 5:02 pm

Hey Boomer,

It's nice hearing this, however at the same time, it hurts to hear other's pain in dealing with PSO. I honestly wish there were more PS that were held to higher standards overall. As the PS that's at my bowling alley is a McCorvey's Pro Shop. Doesn't come off of as just a local mom, and pop type PS business. So I expect better customer service, but it's far from it.

I could be wrong in this thing... However I feel it doesn't matter what layout standard you're wanting to use. It's a very easy process to learn. Youtube has a couple different dual angle videos showing how to lay a ball out. Something I could do in 20 minutes, taking my time, just learning to do it.

To me the hard part is getting people's hand measurements right, with pitches, and such. Which oddly I feel my local PSO is pretty good at. So it sucks to see this kind of customer service when asking for a certain layout to be put on a ball. Like I mentioned in my other post, I actually looked on his back wall as I was talking to him about drilling my ball, and he had a pro sect sitting right there. Which makes doing a dual angle layout very simple, and easy to do. Honestly seeing the pro sect was the only reason I ended up letting him drill the ball, after all the attitude he gave me. I figured.. He has my PAP info, and layout on the paper I gave him. He has the tool, and he has my other ball to quickly pull my hand info off of. So I figured he has everything he need's in front of him, should be a quick, and easy process. Boy was I wrong on that.....

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Re: Layout advice needed

Post by CuriousBowler » March 21st, 2019, 5:14 pm

44boyd wrote:So taking the drama out, I think the short pin and large VAL angle would be a turd unless you’re trying to duplicate a urethane motion.
Boyd If that layout ended up forcing me right, and to play a bit straighter line, that would be okay with me. The only thing with the short pin to pap distance, is concern of hitting the pocket good enough to carry well.

So at this point.. Anyone who has used a pin distance around 1 3/4 on a symmetrical ball, and see this post. How was your pin carry overall? Was it okay? I don't mind bumping up the pin distance a bit if needed. As I know this is a symmetrical ball. So its characteristics are of a smoother ball motion compared to an asymm ball. So I don't know how a 2 to 2 1/2 inch pin to pap distance will play with this type of ball, with a higher VAL angle.

With that said.. I know it's likely very hard to suggest... Again due to not having all my bowling specs. In general, I'm just asking those who have had symmetrical balls with pin to pap distances in that smaller range, how do you feel your pin carry overall was? I fully understand I might be forced to play smaller/straighter angles. Which I don't mind at all.

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Re: Layout advice needed

Post by 44boyd » March 21st, 2019, 5:29 pm

The short pin layouts you are referring usually have a smaller Val like 45 to help kick the backend. I would be afraid of that large a VAL like 60 you end up with a spare ball. All depends on your stats. Take this video as an example, he’s getting movement because it’s a 33 foot pattern. Most house shots are in the 39-42 foot range.

[youtube][/youtube]
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Re: Layout advice needed

Post by CuriousBowler » March 21st, 2019, 5:44 pm

44boyd wrote:The short pin layouts you are referring usually have a smaller Val like 45 to help kick the backend. I would be afraid of that large a VAL like 60 you end up with a spare ball. All depends on your stats
You very well might be right here Boyd. Because I had my PSO plug, and redrill my Choice ball. Which he was supposed to be redrilling it 90x2 1/4x45. I'm 100% sure that isn't drilled right either. I will post again in just a little while a picture of the choice ball. Feel free to say whatever you guys want. My feelings won't be hurt. I might take a picture of the redrilled Choice ball, and my DV8 Tactic Control urethane ball.

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Re: Layout advice needed

Post by CuriousBowler » March 21st, 2019, 6:07 pm

Well here's the choice ball he drilled twice. Second time supposed to be 90x2 1/4x45. Which it might be close to what it should be... But I will let you guys judge. Other ball is the DV8 Tactic Control. Which from my eyes looks like the pin is damn near on the PAP. Which makes me wonder why it loves to leave 10 pins LUL. He drilled all three of these balls.

Ebonite Choice Layout supposed to be: 90x 2 1/4x45
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

DV8 Tactic Control:
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

EDIT: Looking again a bit closer... No way the pin on the Choice is at 2 1/4 based off of the PAP I'm going by. I know when he redrilled that ball. I did not have my PAP then. Which is when he was being smart asking me for it. Then he ended up saying never mind he would get it off the ball. Which honestly whatever PAP he used/come up with, was probably not right. However even the VAL angle seems smaller then 45 as well.

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Re: Layout advice needed

Post by 44boyd » March 21st, 2019, 6:41 pm

The Tatic control looks like the low flare, Choice looks like a 45x4x20. If money isn’t an issue, I would just quit talking to this guy and go somewhere else. It’s hard talking to a wall sometimes
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Re: Layout advice needed

Post by EricHartwell » March 21st, 2019, 8:56 pm

CuriousBowler wrote:Well here's the choice ball he drilled twice. Second time supposed to be 90x2 1/4x45. Which it might be close to what it should be... But I will let you guys judge. Other ball is the DV8 Tactic Control. Which from my eyes looks like the pin is damn near on the PAP. Which makes me wonder why it loves to leave 10 pins LUL. He drilled all three of these balls.

Ebonite Choice Layout supposed to be: 90x 2 1/4x45
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

DV8 Tactic Control:
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

EDIT: Looking again a bit closer... No way the pin on the Choice is at 2 1/4 based off of the PAP I'm going by. I know when he redrilled that ball. I did not have my PAP then. Which is when he was being smart asking me for it. Then he ended up saying never mind he would get it off the ball. Which honestly whatever PAP he used/come up with, was probably not right. However even the VAL angle seems smaller then 45 as well.
I still say this guy does NOT know how to layout a ball with the Dual Angle System.
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Re: Layout advice needed

Post by imagonman » March 21st, 2019, 9:00 pm

CuriousBowler wrote:Well here's the choice ball he drilled twice. Second time supposed to be 90x2 1/4x45. Which it might be close to what it should be... But I will let you guys judge. Other ball is the DV8 Tactic Control. Which from my eyes looks like the pin is damn near on the PAP. Which makes me wonder why it loves to leave 10 pins LUL. He drilled all three of these balls.

Ebonite Choice Layout supposed to be: 90x 2 1/4x45
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

DV8 Tactic Control:
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

EDIT: Looking again a bit closer... No way the pin on the Choice is at 2 1/4 based off of the PAP I'm going by. I know when he redrilled that ball. I did not have my PAP then. Which is when he was being smart asking me for it. Then he ended up saying never mind he would get it off the ball. Which honestly whatever PAP he used/come up with, was probably not right. However even the VAL angle seems smaller then 45 as well.

Well not having the ball in front of me my best guess on those Choice pin positions is:
1st drill = 60* - 4-1/4" 45* { 90* would put the MB on the other side of the thumb. The pin is above & between fingers, no way its under 4"}
2nd drill = 45* -3 to 3-1/2"- 20-25* at best. { Again 90* would put the MB even further left of the thumb}

The Tactical is probably as you guessed, in the axis.

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Re: Layout advice needed

Post by CuriousBowler » March 23rd, 2019, 12:55 am

Hey guys,

I just wanna say thanks for all you guys replying recently. My knee is still bothering me pretty good, so going practice is a no go for me. So I won't be talking with my PSO tomorrow. However I will talk with him about how he drilled my ball wednesday, as he copied the ball I gave him to only take hand measurements off of. Depending on what he says when I bring it up to him soon. I will show him both balls if he tries to get any attitude when I do bring it up.

Eric I wanna say thank you for taking the time to actually post that image, with my PAP specs, showing the layout he put on the Turmoil Solid. Same as my weaker pink ball. Now I know the type of layout both have on them. Which makes sense to me, as I have thrown the columbia 300 pink frost ball for a two years now.

Over that time, that ball has for the most part been a bit stronger then I was hoping it would be when I had him first drill it. Makes plenty of sense now though.. with its pin being in one of its most unstable positions, plus the smaller VAL angle of 35. Currently the pink ball isn't as strong as it once was, has been used plenty. Still can be strong at times though. Probably drain it this weekend, as its due again for that.

I did have him hit the Turmoil Solid with 2000 grit pad after he drilled it. As it had a 500/4000 finish on it. Which was much closer to 500 then 4000, as it for sure looked dull OOB. I'm thinking of taking it up to 4000-5000 grit, and polishing it pretty good before I bowl league this week. See if I can move a bit more right with it. As even if I get something worked out with the PSO. I'm confident in saying the Turmoil Solid with its current layout, is mine to keep. So I will try to tame it down a bit with a higher surface, and polish, to see if maybe I can bump a bit right closer to my comfort zone.

I do want to say with the pin at that 3 3/4 range above my ring finger. The couple ball's I have with that.. Ball's he drilled. I would consider them stronger for me off the breakpoint, which makes things tricky for me at times when using them. Also I have two balls, not including the choice he first drilled with the pin up in the bridge. I have one ball like that, and one pin down at the bridge as well.

I feel with the pin being around my PAP distance, When I have thrown them balls. They get to my breakpoint, and go left pretty hard. So overall them two ball's are tricky for me, often making me move pretty far left to hit the pocket correctly, and not go brooklyn. I just felt like mentioning the 3 3/4-4 1/4 pin to pap distances are pretty strong down lane for me, with the way I like standing a bit more right, and my overall ball speed.

Anyways I still plan to work on getting my bowling specs in a couple more weeks. So you guys can have more then just my PAP info, and ball speed, to go off of.

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Re: Layout advice needed

Post by CuriousBowler » March 25th, 2019, 8:03 pm

Well as you guys know here, I wasn't happy at all with the way my PSO drilled my Turmoil Solid last week. At this point, what is done, is done. I can't change that now. I still plan to let him know of his mistake, and see if he will offer me a new ball, and put the layout I wanted on it. Either way, I don't plan to use him drilling my balls going forward.

I ended up taking the Turmoil Solid up to 4000-5000 grit, and polished it good. Now it has the same layout, and surface as the pink ball. The pink ball is overall a weaker ball. So I plan to bring both balls with me this week, and see where I can play both of them. Hopefully I can keep both of them close still, and when the pink ball just isn't hooking enough, I will be able to use the Turmoil, and carry better. Overall I'm trying to take the negative of the way he drilled the ball, and still use the ball in a positive way for when I need to use it.

With it now highly polished. I want to see if I can bump a bit more right, closer to where I play with my pink ball. If I could get within 5 boards of the pink ball, I will be very happy honestly. Either way, I plan to make both balls work, and likely still use them a lot in league.

Now over the last day, or so, I started looking into "RG And Differential" in bowling balls. Which I know Eric mentioned this to me before, but now I understand it a bit more now. Which I agree is very important to know, when trying to pick a ball, to fit a current way you want to play the lanes. With that said, I wanted to ask anyone who has a good understanding of "RG And Differential" in bowling balls. With RG, and differential. What area would you put Low, Medium, and High, for both?

I have a understanding of low RG will make the ball read sooner, and high RG being later. As for differential, Lower makes the ball have less flare potential, high giving the ball more potential for higher flare. I know the ball's coverstock, and the layout used, also change things some as well. I'm just trying to find a good number area for Low, Medium, and High, to keep in mind in the future when buying a ball, knowing what I want to try to get out of it, in terms of overall ball motion.

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Re: Layout advice needed

Post by EricHartwell » March 25th, 2019, 9:54 pm

Too many people put too much emphasis on the Rg of a ball. The differences in Rg only relate to inches in difference on the lanes. Surface adjustments can change the reaction length by a number of feet.

I use the total differential as a reference when trying to set the pin to PAP distance to get the desired amount of flare post drilling. It is just as you said about the flare potential.

Differential
.000-.025 low differential
.025-.040 medium differential
.040-.060 high differential
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Re: Layout advice needed

Post by CuriousBowler » March 25th, 2019, 10:42 pm

I must say with the issues i have had with my PSO drilling my balls, and posting images of how they are laid out. With your help Eric showing the layout i actually got on the Pink Frost, and Turmoil Solid. With the other info i have taken in recently, i understand the reasoning behind the ball motion i'm seeing with these balls.

As i type this i can't remember if i ever mentioned it. But i throw 14lb balls. As 15lb is to much for my weak wrist, and i overall get way to tired from 15lb balls over multiple games.

With that said. I know from your help Eric. My PSO has the pin to pap distance on these two balls, right at its most unstable position. Being that they're symmetrical balls as well. That pin position promotes a high flare, which isn't something you want playing the dry, trying to keep ball motion smooth overall. Then to top it off he used a 35 VAL angle. Not to mention the pink ball has a .040 diff, and turmoil .042, which means they already have high flaring potential.

So now i understand the reasoning behind having to stand farther left with the pink ball, then i wanted. Because the way the ball is laid out, it is ment to be in the oil a bit more, and have a strong finish down lane.

Which for the longest time i tried standing far right, and throwing more of a down, and in shot. That didn't work out well, even at a higher grit, and highly polished. Now i am able to stand more right with it. But i think that's mostly due to the newer lanes. As the new lanes don't seem to dry out nearly as much as the old lanes. New lanes carry down is for sure an issue more often then not. Overall the outside part of these lanes seem to play slicker overall now.

Finally back when i got the Pink Frost bowling ball. Which was probably close to two years ago. I told him i wanted a ball to play outside, with a down, and in style of play. I honestly think the Pink Frost ball was a fine choice by him. But the 3 3/4 pin to pap distance, and smaller VAL angle he used was overall piss poor choice. As i feel that was to strong of a layout to play outside in the dry part of the lane. Not even highest possible surface, and a high polish on top, would keep this ball straight long enough for a down, and in style. At least not at my 15-15.5mph ball speed, playing up the dry boards.

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Re: Layout advice needed

Post by 44boyd » March 25th, 2019, 11:13 pm

I think you’re making this harder than necessary. You have soft speed, that makes playing outside hard. Get a urethane or entry ball if you want to stay out. Or learn to take your hand out of it. Changing a VAL from 35 to 70 is not going to drastically change the motion of your ball to allow you to do that.
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Re: Layout advice needed

Post by CuriousBowler » March 25th, 2019, 11:31 pm

44boyd wrote:I think you’re making this harder than necessary. You have soft speed, that makes playing outside hard. Get a urethane or entry ball if you want to stay out. Or learn to take your hand out of it. Changing a VAL from 35 to 70 is not going to drastically change the motion of your ball to allow you to do that.
Boyd not trying to turn anything into more then it is... I mostly post, and reply to discuss, and learn new stuff. Which I feel I have learned a ton from you guys over these past couple weeks alone. As for the VAL angle.. I wouldn't even put that as the top issue in what I posted.

I could be wrong here, and you guys are feel to set me straight. The big issue to me, is where he put the pin to pap distance. Am I wrong for feeling it's stupid to take a symmetrical .040 Diff ball, and put the pin to pap distance at 3 3/4? For someone who's trying to play more of the dry part of the lane. To me that seems wrong.

I would think... You would likely want to put the pin distance in a low flare position. Especially for a down, and in style of play. For a right hander releasing the ball, the ball wouldn't be going right much at all, so over 60 feet of lane you just need the ball to motion left, enough to carry consistently. Which I feel can easily be done with a low flare layout. I honestly hate even getting this far into it.. Because I don't have all my specs to give you guys right now.

However I don't feel my ball speed is to slow to prevent me from throwing a down, and in type shot if I wanted. I know ball choice would be limited to a lower end ball. Still I feel a shorter pin distance could help with this a decent amount as well. As for my hand, I am more then capable of being more up the back of the ball when needed as well. I never once stated I only throw the ball this way, as if my hand is stuck in one position. Also I do have a urethane ball. I actually posted a picture of it in this thread. But I feel my PSO might of put the pin a bit to close to my PAP. As often times it can/will leave me ten pins as it hits to soft. You're more then free to look at it, it's up above near the top of this page. The DV8 Tactic Control. I am able to play it much straighter up the dry, but like I said carry isn't great with it, likely due to the pin location I mentioned above.

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Re: Layout advice needed

Post by 44boyd » March 26th, 2019, 12:45 am

You have 2 different pin positions on the choice/turmoil vs the urethane. The low flare on a strong ball could be what you’re looking for, but what you have is more versatile for different conditions. Put the 3 3/8 pin on the urethane and it might be what you need. Low flare layout on that ball is probably not kicking the 10 out.

As far as hand, just because you come up the back doesn’t mean you’re taking your hand out. Up the back makes the ball read sooner. You can do tricks to delay the ball rolling ala Michael Haugen Jr. Here’s a link http://www.bowl4fun.com/ron/tip11.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Layout advice needed

Post by CuriousBowler » March 26th, 2019, 1:45 am

44boyd wrote:You have 2 different pin positions on the choice/turmoil vs the urethane. The low flare on a strong ball could be what you’re looking for, but what you have is more versatile for different conditions. Put the 3 3/8 pin on the urethane and it might be what you need. Low flare layout on that ball is probably not kicking the 10 out.

As far as hand, just because you come up the back doesn’t mean you’re taking your hand out. Up the back makes the ball read sooner. You can do tricks to delay the ball rolling ala Michael Haugen Jr. Here’s a link http://www.bowl4fun.com/ron/tip11.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Yeah the Choice he originally drilled it whatever he figured was best. The ball overall was a bit to hard off the spot for me. So I asked him to put 90x 2 1/4x45 on it. As you see he didn't do that either. As for the urethane I do think I mentioned a low flare layout. But I'm pretty sure the pin distance we talked about was about 2-2 1/2 inches from the PAP. Based off my 4 1/4 right by 1 1/8 up, that pin distance is likely less then an inch probably closer to half an inch off my PAP, if I was to guess looking at it.

The Turmoil was supposed to be laid out 60x 1 3/4x60. Instead he copied my Pink ball, and Eric was nice enough to give me layout specs he put on the ball. Which now I have two balls with same layout, overall neither ball has a layout close to what I wanted. But as I mentioned in my other post, I plan to use both these balls, and take advantage of when one isn't carrying well to try the other ball.

As for hand positions, I have seen that article before, and I actually spread my index finger at times, and other times I spread both my index, and pinky finger. So overall I do mix things up when I feel it might be useful... Not saying I always make the right adjustment. We all struggle adjusting at times.

Out of the 4 balls I posted pictures on here. My big issue is I have layouts on these balls, none of which are what I wanted to put on them. If my PSO would of did what I asked, I would have 4 different layouts, in which I would of had an ideal on what I was getting from them. Lucky for me, Eric, and other's help. They were able to explain the layouts on my ball's. So now I have a better ideal on how, and where I should use these balls. The current layout on the choice ball has me a bit all over the place, in terms of where, and how to use that ball. To me it seems to be something I want to keep more in the middle part of the lane, in more oil.

Overall... I feel if all 4 of these balls would of had the kind of layouts I wanted on them. This thread likely wouldn't of been created. Because I'm not saying I know everything at all... Because I don't, and you guys have helped me a ton recently. So in a way I'm happy this has happen. Still I feel I had a pretty good ideal on what I would of had with each ball, with what I wanted on them. Instead I got two balls with matched layouts, with stronger pin to pap distances, then I would of liked. A urethane ball that looks good, but in terms of carrying, is average at best. Finally the Choice ball turned into a $300 mistake, something I don't see myself throwing much on the THS I bowl league on every Wednesday.

Finally.. Boyd, Eric, and others who have posted in this thread. I appreciate every reply you guys have posted. I welcome discussion, and if you feel my way of thinking regarding a certain subject is wrong. Please respond, and tell me about it. Because I want to learn more, as I plan to keep bowling league once a week, and I would love to take steps to improve my game going forward. Anything I can do to make things easier on myself, and a bit more enjoyable, I'm all for that. Which currently I don't feel that way. I think a lot of that has to do with me having balls drilled, with whatever the PSO wanted to put on the ball the day he drilled them.

However that whole deal stops now... I think once I get another ball, or two drilled by another PSO, and with my bowling specs in mind. I will start having more fun again, and bowl better because of it. My spare game has been suffering as of late, due to all of this honestly. But now I know what I got, I can't change what layout's these balls have on them. So no need to upset myself over that anymore. As redrilling them at this point, is out of the question. So I will just work to adjust my game to them, as I now know what I have, and what to expect in terms of ball motion from these balls.

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Re: Layout advice needed

Post by 44boyd » March 26th, 2019, 9:26 am

Edited to get rid of my tone.

[youtube][/youtube]
Last edited by 44boyd on March 26th, 2019, 5:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Layout advice needed

Post by boomer » March 26th, 2019, 4:18 pm

wow - this thread took on a pretty accusatory tone all of a sudden.

Curious got advice from Eric after quite a bit of discussion. He wanted to try something and his PSO didn't deliver what he asked.

We should ALL be dissatisfied with that.

But accusing him of wanting "elite" equipment is a bit disingenuous. I'm not a 230 bowler (I'm 200+) but do you not think I could make use of that equipment? Having some of those tools in my box and knowing how/when to use them would definitely help me. Having them drilled in a fashion that I'm prepared for would also definitely help me.

Honestly - that's all Curious was asking for.

I find a LOT of that type of disussion elitist and highly irritating. I've seen that video brought up many times - and it always seems to be used as a club. "you don't need THAT, go back to your plastic ball until you can hit the 7.334253 board every time" - which is BS. It's elitist. "This equipment is for US, the good bowlers. You can have it when you're good."

I remember when I "graduated" from a used ball to a brand new Eraser Boost (smelled soo good) and my average in one house jumped - because now I had a ball that could actually deliver on the "new" synthetic lanes in that house. The old Teal Hammer had to be either scuffed massively for THAT house, then brought back for the other house . . . now I had a ball that I could use for either house.

Just last night (and last week) it seems the house we're at now changed oil, or the machine is not working correctly, and we're getting a LOT more oil. Thankfully I have a ball that's way more aggressive, but doesn't come out very often. Well, it's getting a lot more lovin these past two weeks. But thankfully I've got that tool in my bag (plus it makes everything smell all minty!) that I can take out.

Curious seems, to me, to be trying to build a toolbox. Using his preferred area of the lane he wants some tools that give him what he needs.

Should he learn to use multiple lines? Of course. Does that mean he's not worthy of equipment he can use in his preferred area of the lane? No.

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Re: Layout advice needed

Post by nwohbowler » March 26th, 2019, 4:39 pm

44boyd wrote:So your a below 200 average bowler who thinks they need an elite bowlers layout? Like there are 500 things to work on before you just keep beating the dead horse of the PSO. The layout he gave you is usable and yes I understand not what you asked for. But still, those layouts don’t force you left if you can make adjustments with your hand.

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Not for nothing, but I agree with boomer about the somewhat elitest sounding comment. There's nothing wrong with trying to get a specific layout regardless of average. Now, will the person be able to get the most out of that layout? Maybe not, but that doesn't really matter. If he asked for a specific layout it's the PSO's job to give that to him. Should a good PSO be able to discuss and possibly change a customer's mind if they are coming in asking for something completely inappropriate for them? Sure, but if, in the end, the customer stays consistent with what they want the the PSO can either refuse to drill the ball, or they can drill it as requested. To drill it differently is not an acceptable option.

Also, what in the world is "an elite bowler's layout"??
Right handed
Rev Rate 420s
Ball speed at release 17
Axis point 6 3/16" and 1" up
Tilt 17 degrees
Rotation 70 degrees

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