Layout advice needed

Which layout is right for me?

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CuriousBowler
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Re: Layout advice needed

Post by CuriousBowler » March 11th, 2019, 11:52 pm

Eric is there any easier way? I personally don't own a stand to hold my phone, and getting that close off the floor might be a bit tricky. I know you can trace the ball track, and the distance between it, you can chart for axis tilt. Axis rotation seems to be more of the tricky one to get.

Anyways hopefully i'm not driving you nuts with questions. I just figured i would ask. Because the easier, the better it will be for me.

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EricHartwell
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Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
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Re: Layout advice needed

Post by EricHartwell » March 11th, 2019, 11:59 pm

CuriousBowler wrote:Eric is there any easier way? I personally don't own a stand to hold my phone, and getting that close off the floor might be a bit tricky. I know you can trace the ball track, and the distance between it, you can chart for axis tilt. Axis rotation seems to be more of the tricky one to get.

Anyways hopefully i'm not driving you nuts with questions. I just figured i would ask. Because the easier, the better it will be for me.
Yes getting the tilt is much easier by measuring across the ball from the initial track. Rotation is the tricky one.
You can use your shoe to hold the phone in lieu of a stand to find rotation.
Tilt is more important....

http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... =Axis_tilt" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

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Re: Layout advice needed

Post by CuriousBowler » March 19th, 2019, 11:04 pm

Hey Eric,

I league bowl tomorrow, and the main PSO should be back in. So good chance if he's up to it, I will be getting the Turmoil Solid drilled tomorrow. I know I mentioned throwing the 80x5.25x80 layout on it. However I have been thinking of maybe something like 65x5 1/2x55. I know the drill angle wont matter unless a weight hole is used, which I have no plans on having one.

The one thing I'm curious about, is the VAL angle. I wonder how wide I can get the VAL angle while keeping it still above the fingers. With my PAP of 4 1/4 right, and 1 1/8 up. Do you think the 55 VAL angle will put it to close to the middle finger? Requiring to drill the pin out in the middle finger? I'm just curious how wide of a VAL angle is safe while still keeping it above the fingers.

I wouldn't even ask this, if I had a pro sect handy, because then I would just map it out myself, and see where the pin would end up. However knowing some of you guys on here have likely done many of layout's on balls, something like this you likely know more about, and be able to tell me if it will be problematic in the sense of the pin needing to be drilled out with that VAL angle.

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Re: Layout advice needed

Post by EricHartwell » March 19th, 2019, 11:59 pm

CuriousBowler wrote:Hey Eric,

I league bowl tomorrow, and the main PSO should be back in. So good chance if he's up to it, I will be getting the Turmoil Solid drilled tomorrow. I know I mentioned throwing the 80x5.25x80 layout on it. However I have been thinking of maybe something like 65x5 1/2x55. I know the drill angle wont matter unless a weight hole is used, which I have no plans on having one.

The one thing I'm curious about, is the VAL angle. I wonder how wide I can get the VAL angle while keeping it still above the fingers. With my PAP of 4 1/4 right, and 1 1/8 up. Do you think the 55 VAL angle will put it to close to the middle finger? Requiring to drill the pin out in the middle finger? I'm just curious how wide of a VAL angle is safe while still keeping it above the fingers.

I wouldn't even ask this, if I had a pro sect handy, because then I would just map it out myself, and see where the pin would end up. However knowing some of you guys on here have likely done many of layout's on balls, something like this you likely know more about, and be able to tell me if it will be problematic in the sense of the pin needing to be drilled out with that VAL angle.
80-5.5-55 will put the pin on the left side of the middle finger, Not recommended.
Pin in the middle finger would be approximately 80-4.75-55 Depending on span measurements.
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PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

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Re: Layout advice needed

Post by CuriousBowler » March 20th, 2019, 12:07 am

Earlier I was actually thinking there would be a chance the pin could even be to the left of the middle finger, like you mentioned. Which isn't something I have seen really on a bowling ball in terms of pin placement for a right hander. With you mentioning that placement isn't recommended.... Now you have me a bit curious as to why? So if you see this, and don't mind replying again, feel free to explain the reasoning. Because I love learning more info in regards to this kind of stuff. Something I can remember moving forward as well.

From my own thinking, I think it might be in regards to ball tracking over holes. However I rather hear your take, if you don't mind. Thanks again Eric.

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Re: Layout advice needed

Post by EricHartwell » March 20th, 2019, 12:46 am

The Pin represents the Low Rg axis prior to drilling. The Low Rg moves away from drilled holes.

With this said low flare layouts produce PAP locations further way from the grip than do high flare layouts. Couple this with the low Rg moving in a worst case scenario and you could have a ball that flares backwards and on to the holes. If you are lucky it will be such a low flare layout it won't get to the finger holes.
Yes you were correct thinking it could roll over the holes.

I listed the Pin in the middle finger. It is a viable, tunable option for you. If it is too strong, too much flare for your liking then drill the middle finger deeper to reduce the flare.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

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Re: Layout advice needed

Post by CuriousBowler » March 20th, 2019, 10:13 pm

Hey Eric,

I ended up going with a different layout all together. Went with 60x1 3/4x60. Well i'm posting because i feel the drill results are off, especially the pin to pap distance. I'm attach a picture of how it looks, remember i gave him my pap info of 4 1/4 right, 1 1/8 up. Tell me what you think when you get a chance to look at this post.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Layout advice needed

Post by 44boyd » March 20th, 2019, 10:28 pm

Yeah that’s not 1 3/4 pin to pap, looks like a 50x4x40 or 35
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Re: Layout advice needed

Post by CuriousBowler » March 20th, 2019, 10:37 pm

I plan to reply a little bit later, with something else i want to mention. Probably be around 10-10:30pm ET. As l just started league for tonight.

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Re: Layout advice needed

Post by CuriousBowler » March 21st, 2019, 2:52 am

Well i just got home a little bit ago, and i mentioned posting again tonight with something i felt i was right about, and i feel proved myself right when i finished league tonight.

What i wanted to mention.. was i gave him a ball i still use to get my hand measurements off of. Well as i was finishing up with him getting my ball. I quickly noticed the pin to pap distance was off, and very similar to the ball i gave him to get my span info off of. There's zero doubt he knew the piece of paper i gave him with my PAP info, and dual angle layout i put on it, is what I wanted on the Turmoil Solid.

As when i first asked him about drilling a ball for me. I told him i had my PAP and a layout on a piece of paper. Which i gave him. Well he looked at the paper. However instead of him saying okay i will get this drilled up for you, i got nothing but hell from him. He quickly said "How you know that's your PAP, with a quick do you even know what the numbers on this dual angle layout mean?"

Which i replied well my PAP came from the one guy who works your PS, here, and there. I said he did it about two weeks ago on a saturday morning. He then said... well how you know that's your PAP. I said well he asked me to throw a couple ball's(same ball) with my hand more up the back of the ball, and couple with more side rotation. Told me he would get me a average between the two. Then he replied back.. well technically you should of been throwing a plastic ball. Which in turn he's giving me a hard time, while questioning one of his own staff guys ability to help customers in his proshop.

With all that... i told him "Hey you actually came in when he was getting ready to pull my PAP info off the ball. You were right there. So i don't want to hear it. Plus i told him when i brought the Choice ball in to get it plugged, and redrilled with a dual angle layout. You got shitty asking me what was my PAP info, as he needed it to be able to put that layout on the ball."

So that day i replied well you're the PSO, and you have drilled many balls for me... So you tell me what my PAP is. Which i mentioned even after that, when i got the choice ball back, you still never gave me my PAP info. Which during this another guy who works the proshop, and a guy i know who bowls league were in there. So he tried getting all big chested on me, saying i never asked for my PAP info. I replied saying me, and you both know that's a lie.

So finally i point at the 60x 1 3/4x60 layout on the piece of paper. I said yeah that first 60 is the drill angle, which isn't a big deal with this ball being symmetric ball, and without a weight hole, it really doesn't matter. Then i said the 1 3/4 is the pin to pap distance. Last number is the VAL angle, and the higher it is, the longer the hook phase is, which helps give the ball a more controlled arc motion.

His reply after this was "the internet doesn't tell you everything. Which i took as him trying to come off as he won the battle. But knew i was right, and I wasn't completely dumb on what the type of layout i brought him, and what it would do."

Finally after all this he had me heated, and i said "hey if you didn't want to drill the ball, that's all you had to say. I didn't come in here for a arguement. Which i feel you're trying to turn this into. I told him i would just take my ball, and leave. Which i should of done. But then he calmed down, and said no no i will do it, i got this. So i left the ball in there, and walked out. Came back in about ten minutes later to bring him my ball to get my span specs off of, he was finishing up with a customer before me still.

He then tried to play nice saying yeah that layout will be a more controlled arc layout. Which i said yeah i know.. that's why i brought you it, as that what i wanted on this ball. Now back to after i got the ball, threw it few times during warmup before league. Which with what he put on the ball, as i expected it forced me farther left then i wanted. I knew the layout he put it on, was similar to a ball i have had for a while, so i knew how this ball acted, knew that ball was weaker overall, and so i was able to play where i like with it. Knew that wouldn't be the case with this ball. As it was overall a strong ball.

Anyhow as i was going to put my ball i have had for awhile now, which i still use often as it plays like i want it, but it is time to replace it. Well i put that ball, and the Turmoil solid, side by side. Guess what? Pin was damn near same spot as the ball i gave him only to take hand measurements off of. Also the DV8, and Columbia 300 logos were both damn near same spot, below my fingers, and above the thumb. So to me this ultimately shows, and tells me.. he ignored the layout i gave him, and pretty much copied the layout from the ball I gave him for hand specs, which is the ball I have in the picture down below, side by side with the Turmoil Solid.

With all that.. it pisses me off. However i plan to mention this to him soon, and gauge his response. I want to see if he will admit the mistake, and offer to fix it. Either way, i'm beyond the point of being done with him as a ball driller for me. Also want to mention he runs a McCorvey's(?) Proshop here, he the main guy running this one though. Anyways here's a picture i took of the two balls side by side tonight, as i put my equipment up after league. I will let you guy's judge on how they're both drilled.

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Last edited by CuriousBowler on March 21st, 2019, 3:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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EricHartwell
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Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
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Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous
Medium Oil Ball: Motiv Villain, Hammer Nail, Brunswick True Motion
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Columbia Nitrous
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Re: Layout advice needed

Post by EricHartwell » March 21st, 2019, 3:02 am

Your driller doesn't know how to use the dual angles. I would be pissed!

I had a similar experience and I refused to pay or accept the ball. He wanted me to roll it and try.
I told him NO F2#<ing way, credit my card or I will make an even bigger scene. I already had several people in the bowling alley wonder what was going on. In this case I ordered the ball through the shop. He even tried to get me to let him plug and re-drill it. I said NO, again swearing at him.
I have never gone back to that shop even though the driller no longer works there.
I wanted 55-3.5-55 he drilled it 60-5-15 the pin was almost 3" above my ring finger. I wanted pin next to the ring finger. I just felt my blood pressure go up thinking about it.
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12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

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Re: Layout advice needed

Post by CuriousBowler » March 21st, 2019, 3:22 am

Eric,

What pisses me off the most, is this PSO I don't feel is dumb at all. I feel he knows things pretty well. However I feel he gets lazy with customers, and has this my way, or highway thing about him. As I mentioned before... More often then not, when asking him about doing something for you, it comes with an attitude, and you're doing this, this, and this wrong. However there are rare times, he is really nice, which is the person I like dealing with.

Now back to me feeling like he knows what he's doing. I know over the last couple years, he has been the guy who has been big in helping bring PBA proam's, and PBA related event's to our local bowling alley. He knows some of the older PBA guys pretty well. He has mentioned in the past, he bowled the PBA tour at one time. Which I do believe he did. He's older now, and he doesn't do that anymore. I have seen him bowl league a few times as well.

Today I did look around, and he does have a pro sect as well. So he has to tools to mark up a dual angle layout, and honestly. From watching a couple vid's myself. Give me 20 minutes with a pro sect, and I could map my own dual angle layout. I would be slow at first, due to not being used to drawing it up. However the layout itself isn't hard at all with a pro sect. Now as for the hand span part, that is where i have zero clue on doing, but I know I could do it. As for the drilling itself, I don't have all the tools to do it myself, or i would, no questions about it.. At this point.

Another thing I want to mention. Me, and my brother, both feel this way. He has his favorites, and if you're not one of them. Goodluck dealing with him. Hell his favorite's, which are local bowlers. He lets them come in, and use his tool's no question asked. He doesn't give them shit either. However his favorites likely bowl a couple times a week, and when there's local tournament's, or PBA events. These guys take part in them.

However someone like me who currently only bowl's league once a week, and try going practice once a week on the weekend. It's like you don't mean shit... Why are you bothering me? That's how things feel. The big issue I have with all this.. Over the last two years alone. I bet I have spent just as much, if not more money in his proshop buying, and getting balls drilled, compared to his favorites. You would think the customer who spends money, you would try to treat well, to keep them coming back. In my case, and I know several other local league bowlers, feel this way as well. He's just a prick very often, I know several local guys who refuse to use him for anything, and I know a couple of them league bowl 2-3 times a week, at the local center. Which his proshop is in.

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Re: Layout advice needed

Post by CuriousBowler » March 21st, 2019, 3:43 am

Eric I honestly want to thank you for even taking the time reading a lot of the things I have posted here. I know as much as I want to beat my head into a wall tonight, even though this wasn't you dealing with this tonight. I know you understand, and likely feel my pain as well.

Re-reading your last reply. Which I did read, but was a quick overlook, before my reply above this. Due to still being angry, and pissed off about this whole deal tonight. Seeing that layout image you posted, makes me want to bite my tongue in a sense. Because that is totally not what I wanted. I see you likely looked at that recent image of the two balls, side by side as well.

Which just shows you he pretty much copied my ball, and threw the layout I gave him out the window. I do plan to question him on this as well. Likely even saturday morning, when I have been going practicing. I really want to see what he has to say about this.

I want to see if he tries to admit he was wrong, or try to get an attitude about it. Because I plan to be real nice at first, however if he gets shitty.. I plan to get shitty back, and likely make a scene in his proshop. Which right outside of it, on Saturday's is where a lot of the league bowlers get put for practice. The other end of the house is where the youth kid's are bowling their league. 40 lane bowling center.

As I mentioned in my other post, even if he's nice, admits the mistakes, offers to fix it for free. Which I will likely let him, if he makes this whole discussion pleasant. Any small bit of attitude, I will end things after I voice my anger, and not let him touch the ball at all. Still after this encounter, fixing the mistake, or not. He will not layout my ball's again. Between the $300 Choice ball mistake he was the main cause of, which just happen within the past 2 months, and this now.. It's damn near beyond a forgivable ordeal by him.

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Re: Layout advice needed

Post by imagonman » March 21st, 2019, 5:02 am

I'm sorry for your ordeal. Life should NOT be this difficult! With that said, why do you continue to give this clown your business? He treats you like a 3rd class jamoke, is a rude, condescending, arrogant, cocky self important jerk & is taking your money. I wouldn't have let him touch that ball after the original tet-a-tet re: your PAP & layout. NOW you have a BRAND NEW ball that is for all intents useless to you. The only solution for you is he replaces that ball w/ a BRAND NEW ball, no excuses! PERIOD! Not plugging and re-drilling NO WAY! Then take it elsewhere to someone who knows what they're doing & gives YOU what you want with some form of Customer Service, not a know it alll attitude. That layout is an EXACT copy of the other ball & is nowhere near what YOU Asked for. Now you must demand satisfaction, i.e. New in Box replacement.
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Re: Layout advice needed

Post by CuriousBowler » March 21st, 2019, 2:33 pm

Hello imagonman,

After my last reply last night, I actually thought about that. As one of the reasons I got this ball, was because I liked its color scheme. So it's very likely... Just like the Choice ball he screwed up. If he plugs it, it will have three spots with black filler. Which won't make the ball look as good as it did.

Also I did get to throw the ball around 10 times during our 10 minutes of practice before league last night. The spot I found to work this ball to the pocket was 5-10 board more left with my feet, then I intended to use it. I will say this though, the video's I seen of this ball showed a more controlled motion ball. Even though it's listed as a medium-heavy ball. However with the layout he put on it, once it hit the breakpoint, it was to hard off the spot for my liking.

With that said, I feel if he would of put the correct 60x1 3/4x60 layout on this ball. I would of very likely been able to play very close to my sweet spot. However the stronger pin location, with the shorter VAL angle he used. Pushed me much farther left with my feet. Overall not happy.

I actually almost feel like posting a picture of my Choice ball, and my DV8 urethane ball I had him drill. I have a good feeling the choice ball I had him plug, and redrill isn't a 90x2 1/4x45 layout either. As for my DV8 Tactic Control. Just looking at the ball, the pin looks to be maybe a inch off my pap. Which makes sense now.... Because this ball is very smooth overall, however to get it to carry 10 pins, I have to be damn near perfect, with the hand position, or it's 10 pin city.

After mentioning all that now. I will take blame on some of this. However it wasn't till about two weeks ago I actually got my PAP info, which was from one of the other guys that work the PS. So I actually think my PAP info is likely pretty close to what it actually is. So now knowing my PAP info just looking at these balls, I can picture where the pins should be located based off the layouts I asked him to put on these balls. Which now I feel all three of these balls are off, and likely off by good amounts.

Eric when you see this post, I wanted to ask.. Could you do another one of them layout images of 60x1 3/4x60 based off my PAP, when you have a chance. As I would love to have it handy especially when I question him on his mistakes. Because if he comes off as shitty, and tries to blame me. I would love to pull my phone out, and show him what the layout should look like based off my PAP. I can kind of picture the proper pin location already myself. Likely around a inch to the side of my ring finger, and a likely a bit lower as well with the 60 VAL angle.

Being honest with you guys, after posting my last post on here last night, which was near midnight. I didn't get to bed till after 2am this morning. Due to being pissed about how he drilled this ball, and thinking how my three newest ball's are all likely laid out wrong.

Once the first of next month gets here. I will be ordering myself a pro sect, armadillo, and some wax pencils as well. As I plan to start rough drafting my own layouts, plus use them two tools to help get both mine, and my brothers bowling specs while we practice sometime this next month.

Finally I did talk to a league guy last night that I know well, and I mentioned how the PS guy messed up my drilling on my ball, and how I was pissed off about it. I asked him who he gets his done thru. Which he mentioned a guy, which I have heard his name via another league guy as well. The guy doesn't have a proshop from what I know. He does this work out of his garage, but from what I heard he know his stuff. So I might get up with him soon, and see about him doing my ball drilling's for now on. I think dealing with this guy could work out well. Either way, now knowing my PAP info, I can't let the current PSO continue to drill, and copy my other balls, when I'm asking for different layouts on each ball.

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Re: Layout advice needed

Post by 44boyd » March 21st, 2019, 2:51 pm

Do you like conflict? Why on Earth would anything but a refund regardless of attitude be accepted? You can layout your own equipment, but without your release specs you’re still just guessing. Get your specs, Eric can recommend layouts for the balls you have and you can lay them out yourself. Why waste time money on another guess that might not be what you’re looking for?
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Re: Layout advice needed

Post by imagonman » March 21st, 2019, 3:44 pm

As to the layout he put on the Turmoil. Looks like what eric said, 70 - 3-3/4" - 35 is what I got duplicating it on my old Rhino. {Yellow lines See pic}. I also put what you were looking for on the same ball ** - 1 -3/4 - 60, the dot of tape is pin. The drill angle on a symm ends up in the thumb, which would give you a 95* DA {White lines}. The only way to get a 60 -1-3/4 - 60 is to use an asym w/ the MB way right & low 6-3/4" on the VAL, that is the dashed line you see.

Was wondering why you changed the layout from 5 -5 1/2" Pin to the 1-3/4" pin?
1-3-4 - 60-VAL.jpg
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Re: Layout advice needed

Post by CuriousBowler » March 21st, 2019, 3:49 pm

Hey Boyd,

I already knew I was overall laying this ball out blindly, which I was okay with, and I even let Eric know that. The plan is/was after this ball any other ball I have will be done with all my specs. The current plan is to get all that done sometime next month. Currently even if I wanted to try to get them now, it likely isn't happen, due to me dealing with soreness at the top of my right knee. Which is very bothersome right now when trying to bowl. Last night was tricky alone, and today as expect the soreness is worst.

So I'm try to rest my knee as much as possible these next couple week's, and see where things are. As for conflict... That really isn't me at all. I know you likely read my last couple post above. Which you will see yesterday, he tried to turn a simple drilling a ball with a layout. Into questioning my PAP measurements, the layout I asked him to put on the ball, and pretty much telling me the internet is useless. Which didn't surprise me, because I know plenty of older people who think the internet is the devil, and has zero usefulness to it. Which is by far wrong, as you can learn a lot off the internet.

Ultimately I got shitty with him yesterday, and told him to give me my ball, and I would leave. Because I didn't come in there to argue with him, and get put into a pissed off mood. Which overall he did last night, after seeing how he drilled the ball up. The main reason I let him do this ball last night, is he ended up changing his tune quickly, after I got on him. Plus I noticed he did have a pro sect hanging on the wall. So with me giving him my PAP info, plus the layout. I figured he was more then capable of drilling this layout. This was the first time when he has got a new ball from me to drill. He had PAP info in front of him to go off of.

I still want to make it clear... I don't feel he's incapable of drilling a dual angle layout. I feel it's mindset issue with him. In the sense, he has it in his mind how he's going drill something, and does it that way regardless of what you tell him. He overall comes off as rude, not caring, and disrespectful to customer's demands.

Overall yesterday he had zero excuses not to drill my ball like I wanted, and he ended up copying the ball I gave him to get my hand span measurements off of it. So any excuses, or misunderstanding are out the window at time point, and I promise you guys it will not happen again.

As for questioning him last night, I was about 95% sure he totally screwed up the drilling as I got the ball from him. But I wasn't 100%, reason I posted here. Which Eric confirmed he totally did, and he did indeed copy my other ball's layout. To top it off I got this ball back probably 20 minutes before league was starting, I was already not super happy. However I didn't want to incapable of bowling last night, reason I decided to wait to question him, the next time I see him. Because I bet 100% if I would of did it last night, things would of really blew up, and likely needed to leave the bowling alley, and not bowl league.

Not something I wanted to happen last night, there's always another day to take the issue on. The ball isn't going anywhere. I know, he knows, and the other guy who helps run the PO at times knows he drilled that ball yesterday. So when I do bring it up to him, there's no hiding his mistake, and I will be sure to let him know about it, and how disappointed I am. Even if he offers to plug, and redrill the ball. I will tell him no, and mention this was a new ball, which will not longer have that feel to it, with 3 plugged holes on it. I will mention I feel he owes me a new ball as well. See how he responds to that. If he does care, he will try to fix it. If not, he will never get any business from me again.

The ball drilling will be over with regardless, however I will make it a point to not buy anything out of his PO again. Plus I will make it a point to anyone I know, that bowls at this alley, not to do business with him. You can bet your ass I will cost him future business, if he doesn't try to own his mistake, and make things right.

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Re: Layout advice needed

Post by CuriousBowler » March 21st, 2019, 4:21 pm

imagonman wrote:As to the layout he put on the Turmoil. Looks like what eric said, 70 - 3-3/8 - 35 is what I got duplicating it on my old Rhino. {Yellow lines See pic}. I also put what you were looking for on the same ball ** - 1 -3/4 - 60, the dot of tape is pin. The drill angle on a symm ends up in the thumb, which would give you a 93* DA {White lines}. The only way to get a 60 -1-3/4 - 60 is to use an asym w/ the MB way right & low 6-3/4" on the VAL, that is the dashed line you see.

Was wondering why you changed the layout from 5 -5 1/2" Pin to the 1-3/4" pin?
1-3-4 - 60-VAL.jpg
Well overall I'm not worried about the drilling angle. I just put 60x60 to keep the ratio 1:1. As the drilling angle means nothing without a weight hole in it for this ball. As for the reason for switching from 5 1/2 pin to pap to 1 3/4. Eric replied at one point regarding the pin being that far left, and possibly being problematic. Since my PAP is 4 1/4 right. That puts the pin more to the left side of the middle finger. Not trying to cause any possible ball track issues.

Plus overall the longer pin would of likely caused the ball to come off the spot a little harder then I wanted, and ultimately I rather it be a bit more smooth arc motion. I honestly thought about 1 1/2 pin to pap. But I didn't want to go to low, and have carry issues with the pin being to short.

Honestly I'm open to pin to pap distance adjustments. I know one thing though.. I don't want pin distance putting the core at its most unstable position. Which currently the way the PSO drilled it, it's right near that spot.

Overall like Eric, and a couple others suggesting layouts for symmetrical ball. The drill angle can be xx for all I care, as I have zero plans of a weight hole, with the new rules. Which come into play in just a couple more months. The main thing for me is the pin to pap distance, and VAL angle. I dropped it from 80 to 60, as I didn't want to make it hard for the ball to go thru its motions properly before hitting the pins. As I mentioned to Eric earlier in the thread, even at 80, if the ball had trouble getting into a roll hitting the pocket. I feel I could adjust slowing my ball speed to give it time. Adding ball speed is more of an issue for me. Another reason I think a smaller pin to pap distance might benefit me. I could be wrong on that though.

At this point... The ball is drilled wrong. So I'm open to more layout discussion. Ultimately I know we're playing a guessing game without all my ball specs. But I will say after throwing the Turmoil Solid last night if that ball did have the xx-1 3/4-60 layout on it. I feel confident saying I would of been able to play much closer to my comfort area, with the ball having that smooth motion off the breakpoint. Which as I said before, I like keeping my feet more right.. Again not saying playing straight up the 5 board either. I don't mind a smaller swing path of the ball going down the lane. Just not wanting to be forced far left having to keep the ball in a ton of oil to hold its line, and hit the pocket.

EDIT: Looking at that image of the pin location with it being 1 3/4. That is very close to where I was picturing it being on the ball. Which still put it about a inch, or so right of the ring finger. Which is a safe distance, no worry of ball cracking due to being to close to the finger hole.

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Re: Layout advice needed

Post by boomer » March 21st, 2019, 4:45 pm

wow - it's a saga.

I've been through similar.

When I met my wife, who bowls backup, I saw her ball literally fighting itself. She had it drilled righty. I took her second ball to a different pro shop near where I used to live and mentioned it to him. I said, how does this look for a backup bowler. He said fine if it's a lefty-backup, LOL. He re-drilled it for a low-rotation backup bowler and magically the ball did what it was supposed to. Her previous driller ONLY did things his way. Unfortunately I don't go to the center near where I used to live because. . . I don't live there anymore! LOL

Where we live now (her grandmother's house, which we own) we've gone through 3 drillers and am looking at our fourth. This new guy looks to be really cool - does NOT talk down to me, talks straight to her (well, he's as tall as I am and she's a foot shorter so. . . LOL) and actually listens - so I have hope!

But
we've had a guy who literally would NOT talk to her . . .
We've had a guy who drilled everything exactly the same (even with different pin distances) . . .
We've had a guy who drilled everything "old school" - PER-friggin-FECT fit on thumbs, but didnt' believe in the whole modern drilling things. Nice guy, but do NOT mention dual-angle.

Sigh. All this to say - "I feel your pain"

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