Sport Layout Ratio Question

Which layout is right for me?

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Olias
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Sport Layout Ratio Question

Post by Olias » March 7th, 2019, 12:29 am

I was reading through info on sport layouts in the BowlingChat research Wiki and I have a question. The Dual Angle Sweet Spot Guide & Examples (File:01DualAngleSweetSpot.pdf) says to: “Use higher ratios for flatter or more demanding patterns to create a stronger reaction to friction," and "Use lower ratios for easier THS wet / dry patterns for more control and mid-lane reaction." However The Sport Bowling Layouts file recommended layouts have a much lower ratio, not a higher ratio. The ones recommended are below 1:1. As an example, for the typical house shot benchmark asymmetric 55 x 4 x 35, the recommended medium length sport pattern given is 30 x 5 x 45.

Which is right or is there something I am missing?
Thanks

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Re: Sport Layout Ratio Question

Post by MegaMav » March 7th, 2019, 2:26 am

I wouldnt recommend high ratios for a sport pattern unless you are looking to walk out of the building without any hair on your head.

Important note in the article:
Use these sport layout balls when playing on the fresh, until the hook-set angle takes you away from the pocket and entry angle becomes flat. Then use slightly more continuous, or angular balls when the pattern breaks down and the pattern has more miss room. These balls are not meant for inside out play, like on house shots.
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Re: Sport Layout Ratio Question

Post by Olias » March 16th, 2019, 7:41 pm

Thanks. That is helpful.

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Re: Sport Layout Ratio Question

Post by deanchamp » March 17th, 2019, 8:53 am

MegaMav wrote:Use these sport layout balls when playing on the fresh, until the hook-set angle takes you away from the pocket and entry angle becomes flat. Then use slightly more continuous, or angular balls when the pattern breaks down and the pattern has more miss room. These balls are not meant for inside out play, like on house shots.
What I'm finding is it's actually harder to get balls to go left to right than it used to, due to the strength of the coverstocks I'm guessing. I don't use any polish on my balls. What layouts/ balls are more continuous and angular without balance holes now? I understand all the theory, but interested in your thoughts. Thanks.
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Re: Sport Layout Ratio Question

Post by MegaMav » March 17th, 2019, 2:21 pm

deanchamp wrote:What I'm finding is it's actually harder to get balls to go left to right than it used to, due to the strength of the coverstocks I'm guessing. I don't use any polish on my balls. What layouts/ balls are more continuous and angular without balance holes now? I understand all the theory, but interested in your thoughts. Thanks.
IMO, the general bowling Joe and Jane throw it worse than ever and companies keep throwing more core asymmetry at them to get the ball to move dynamically on the backend. Sexy right? Chicks dig the long ball.

Well for those that throw it matched its getting more difficult to not have the ball pick up in the middle of the lane with those kinds of balls with in-the-box layouts. I think a lot of them are way too amped up for shape. I've been hanging out on the Radical Fans facebook page helping with layouts and I find myself more in the minority now giving people layouts to compensate for too much or too little of something about their release. It seems the trajectory of ball motion now is to skid and bank, even for low tilt, high rotation players.
Give people the sexy ball motion, even if its like a shotgun at a sharp shooting contest.

To answer your question, I would say continuous and angular are two different motions.
Continuous going forward seems to be Symmetricals with longer Pin to PAPs for most players.
Angular is high ratio sums with middling Pin to PAPs for most players.
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Re: Sport Layout Ratio Question

Post by kajmk » March 17th, 2019, 10:57 pm

The link below has an illustration showing types of ball motion.
I believe the term hockey stick shape is synonymous with angular. If so, it paints a more vivid mental image. Just like high performance cars, it takes a skilled driver to operate and know when to do so.

https://ctdbowling.com/pages/ball-motion" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Sport Layout Ratio Question

Post by deanchamp » March 18th, 2019, 11:51 am

Thanks for your input mate, and I didn't mean to imply they were the same motion, but the required motion.

I've taken most of the side roll out of my shot to control the backend, and using the sports layouts requires oil for some length, but when I increase the side roll to get some shape as I move deeper, I'd still prefer to play tighter to the pocket with enough entry angle to get the corners out. I'm not good enough to cover too many boards consistently!

When people ask for a ball and layout that hooks, my standard answer is throw a rev dominant shot with lots of side roll and you'll get any ball to hook. But is that what you really want?

Many of the senior bowlers in our league are now throwing the latest 'roided up reactives as they replace their older gear, but without the necessary ball speed as the oil depletes they struggle to stay right of the head pin. The modern balls aren't helping them at all.

And looking at the 4 types of ball motion link (thanks), I'm never sold on categorising balls as layouts and surface can pretty much change any of them into something else, regardless of what they may have been intended for.


MegaMav wrote:
IMO, the general bowling Joe and Jane throw it worse than ever and companies keep throwing more core asymmetry at them to get the ball to move dynamically on the backend. Sexy right? Chicks dig the long ball.

Well for those that throw it matched its getting more difficult to not have the ball pick up in the middle of the lane with those kinds of balls with in-the-box layouts. I think a lot of them are way too amped up for shape. I've been hanging out on the Radical Fans facebook page helping with layouts and I find myself more in the minority now giving people layouts to compensate for too much or too little of something about their release. It seems the trajectory of ball motion now is to skid and bank, even for low tilt, high rotation players.
Give people the sexy ball motion, even if its like a shotgun at a sharp shooting contest.

To answer your question, I would say continuous and angular are two different motions.
Continuous going forward seems to be Symmetricals with longer Pin to PAPs for most players.
Angular is high ratio sums with middling Pin to PAPs for most players.
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Re: Sport Layout Ratio Question

Post by kajmk » March 18th, 2019, 4:04 pm

Dean, excellent point about many seniors rolling the latest fire breathing dragons.
Why, I'm not sure. I've dealt with 5 pro shops here in Arizona.
My observation and opinion, 4 top notch, 1 I'd never recommend.
All took time to know their customers and all were honest and skilled.
On the flip side -
I attended a ball demo day at local center in Sun City. I was there just to observe as I was and still am inactive.
I happened to hear question and answer between a couple and a label rep who was frankly distorting reality. What he told them was basically a disservice and insult to the sport.
These people had little or no knowledge of execution or equipment.

All too many people do not seek out knowledge.
I see that at the gym I frequent. It's worse at gyms, because bad technique at best will not yield good results and at the worst, cause injury.
Bowling centers and gyms have the resources to educate or at the minimum, direct their customers to good sources of information.
There is so much EMPTY wall space, multiple tv screens ...

The internet, as we know, can be a wonderful tool.

The bottom line is skilled professionals that care about people.
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Re: Sport Layout Ratio Question

Post by EricHartwell » March 18th, 2019, 9:14 pm

I've seen the Asymmetrical low flare layout called the layout of the future.

I think the future is here.
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Re: Sport Layout Ratio Question

Post by russelldean » March 19th, 2019, 4:18 pm

EricHartwell wrote:I've seen the Asymmetrical low flare layout called the layout of the future.

I think the future is here.

90 x 2 1/4 x 45?
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Re: Sport Layout Ratio Question

Post by 44boyd » March 19th, 2019, 4:58 pm

russelldean wrote:

90 x 2 1/4 x 45?
Could be 1 1/4 inch pin to pap depending on tilt
Stacy

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Re: Sport Layout Ratio Question

Post by EricHartwell » March 19th, 2019, 8:53 pm

russelldean wrote: 90 x 2 1/4 x 45?
For a generic layout yes. My recommendation takes the Long and Strong Ratio and Totals that are based on the Benchmark with the reduced pin to PAP.
44boyd wrote: Could be 1 1/4 inch pin to pap depending on tilt
I factor in many points including all the release specs, starting differential of the ball, coverstrength/prep, other balls in the arsenal, lane condition etc.

The shorter the Pin to PAP, the more overlap of the flare rings that reduces backend reaction and it will also create more carrydown.
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Re: Sport Layout Ratio Question

Post by russelldean » March 26th, 2019, 8:05 pm

EricHartwell wrote: For a generic layout yes. My recommendation takes the Long and Strong Ratio and Totals that are based on the Benchmark with the reduced pin to PAP.

I factor in many points including all the release specs, starting differential of the ball, coverstrength/prep, other balls in the arsenal, lane condition etc.

The shorter the Pin to PAP, the more overlap of the flare rings that reduces backend reaction and it will also create more carrydown.

Tilt 20. Rotation 55. Slightly speed dominant
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Re: Sport Layout Ratio Question

Post by EricHartwell » March 26th, 2019, 10:35 pm

russelldean wrote: Tilt 20. Rotation 55. Slightly speed dominant
Hmm, interesting specs

I have tried to stay away from recommending the Asymmetrical low flare for bowlers with higher tilt especially when coupled with speed dominance.

An Asym with a short pin is really going to get length with a bowler that has 20+ degrees of tilt.
Then you add some speed dominance. Now you start risking the ball rolling, if it even rolls, with too much tilt and bouncing off the pocket deflecting towards the 9 pin for right handers.
Some of the factors in the low flare layouts are the larger Drilling angle and higher totals. Both of these factors contribute to the lower flare.

Slightly speed dominant and tilt on the high side of medium. 85* Totals 1:1.25 Ratio Sweetspot
I'm not going to round to the nearest 5* like I normally do. It would make the drilling angles even smaller.
Benchmark ............... 37-4.25-48
Long and Strong ....... 58-4-47
Control .................... 38-4-67
low flare .................. 58-2.25-47
I don't like it especially if the speed dominance is actually rev deficiency like many older bowlers.

With all that said I would think a little bit outside the box.
I would prefer knowing actual speed and revs along with the PAP and specific ball.
Do you have a specific bowler in mind here or is this just an exercise for the iffy specs?
Eric Hartwell

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Re: Sport Layout Ratio Question

Post by Mongo » March 27th, 2019, 1:21 am

I picked up a Tremendous with the intent of putting a low flare layout on it for the "hooky" USBC pattern (last year's team)

Right now, was planning on a 110 x 1 1/2 x 55

17-18 MPH
375-400 RPM
Rotation - 55
Tilt - 7

Thoughts?
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Re: Sport Layout Ratio Question

Post by EricHartwell » March 27th, 2019, 2:27 am

Mongo wrote:I picked up a Tremendous with the intent of putting a low flare layout on it for the "hooky" USBC pattern (last year's team)

Right now, was planning on a 110 x 1 1/2 x 55

17-18 MPH
375-400 RPM
Rotation - 55
Tilt - 7

Thoughts?
Your idea is extreme in a couple different ways. I feel the Totals are too high and Pin to PAP too short. With this layout I would expect you to need to sand the ball to 500 grit. Obviously you experienced lane conditions that you couldn't overcome last year. I have no doubt that your idea would work to keep you in the pocket playing straighter but I believe your carry will definitely suffer.

I would go with 125* totals at the most and 2.75:1 Ratio
low flare layout ................ 90-2-35

This layout is not really compensated for you being left handed. Normally the totals and Ratio would be a little bit lower.

I have a Tremendous and have experimented quite a bit with surface and ended up bringing it back to the factory 500/1500 surface. It played best for me with the out of the box surface. Disclaimer I do not have a low flare layout on it.
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Re: Sport Layout Ratio Question

Post by Mongo » March 27th, 2019, 3:19 am

EricHartwell wrote: Your idea is extreme in a couple different ways. I feel the Totals are too high and Pin to PAP too short. With this layout I would expect you to need to sand the ball to 500 grit. Obviously you experienced lane conditions that you couldn't overcome last year. I have no doubt that your idea would work to keep you in the pocket playing straighter but I believe your carry will definitely suffer.

I would go with 125* totals at the most and 2.75:1 Ratio
low flare layout ................ 90-2-35

This layout is not really compensated for you being left handed. Normally the totals and Ratio would be a little bit lower.

I have a Tremendous and have experimented quite a bit with surface and ended up bringing it back to the factory 500/1500 surface. It played best for me with the out of the box surface. Disclaimer I do not have a low flare layout on it.
On last year's team, I had a ton of over/under front to back. Since I'm by myself, I'm looking for a something controllable that I can keep in front of me for as long as possible. Any bigger flaring/quick response layouts are out in my mind.

Essentially, I want something that rolls like urethane, but will still hit, that's why I thought about the short pin to PAP.
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Re: Sport Layout Ratio Question

Post by EricHartwell » March 27th, 2019, 5:50 pm

Mongo wrote:Essentially, I want something that rolls like urethane, but will still hit, that's why I thought about the short pin to PAP.
And you have a good Idea just don't take it too far like I tried to explain of you won't get the "hit"
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Re: Sport Layout Ratio Question

Post by russelldean » March 27th, 2019, 7:29 pm

EricHartwell wrote: Hmm, interesting specs

I have tried to stay away from recommending the Asymmetrical low flare for bowlers with higher tilt especially when coupled with speed dominance.

An Asym with a short pin is really going to get length with a bowler that has 20+ degrees of tilt.
Then you add some speed dominance. Now you start risking the ball rolling, if it even rolls, with too much tilt and bouncing off the pocket deflecting towards the 9 pin for right handers.
Some of the factors in the low flare layouts are the larger Drilling angle and higher totals. Both of these factors contribute to the lower flare.

Slightly speed dominant and tilt on the high side of medium. 85* Totals 1:1.25 Ratio Sweetspot
I'm not going to round to the nearest 5* like I normally do. It would make the drilling angles even smaller.
Benchmark ............... 37-4.25-48
Long and Strong ....... 58-4-47
Control .................... 38-4-67
low flare .................. 58-2.25-47
I don't like it especially if the speed dominance is actually rev deficiency like many older bowlers.

With all that said I would think a little bit outside the box.
I would prefer knowing actual speed and revs along with the PAP and specific ball.
Do you have a specific bowler in mind here or is this just an exercise for the iffy specs?
These are my latest specs, now that I am bowling right handed again. My comfort speed is around 20-21. Rpm 400-425. I can, and often do lower speed tilt and rotation. Because often equipment and surface can’t fix my ball missing the midland. And I get over under off the spot.
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Re: Sport Layout Ratio Question

Post by EricHartwell » March 28th, 2019, 2:36 am

russelldean wrote:
These are my latest specs, now that I am bowling right handed again. My comfort speed is around 20-21. Rpm 400-425. I can, and often do lower speed tilt and rotation. Because often equipment and surface can’t fix my ball missing the midland. And I get over under off the spot.
What is your PAP measurement and what ball?

I am surmising that the fresh condition is what is giving you fits and once the pattern blends out and the midlane opens up you get comfortable, yes?
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

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