Pin up vs pin down discrepancy in reality of ball motion

Which layout is right for me?

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kidlost2000
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Pin up vs pin down discrepancy in reality of ball motion

Post by kidlost2000 » February 24th, 2019, 10:48 pm

So we learned a lot about when to bring a spare ball recently. Why is it when comparing a ball reaction and flare on the pin up vs pin down they are comparing such different pin to pap distances?

Doesn’t really make sense unless pushing an agenda or bias on something. In the symmetric portion of the video we watch and measure Ryan throw a 3 3/4" pin to pap pin up ball. Then we compare it to a 5" pin to pap pin down ball. It’s listed at 4" pin down but when getting to the actual numbers we see it's 5".

Why would anyone be surprised that a 5" pin to pap ball flared less then a 3 3/4" pin to pap ball no matter if up, down, or in between ?

Is it because when comparing same pin to pap measurements on pin up and pin down are too similar?

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EricHartwell
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Re: Pin up vs pin down discrepancy in reality of ball motion

Post by EricHartwell » February 25th, 2019, 1:16 am

Oops

I think the demonstration was more about showing the migrating axis and how it differs for different layouts not so much on how pin up vs pin down layouts roll. While it would have been nice to see how similar they would have been with the same pin to PAP.
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Re: Pin up vs pin down discrepancy in reality of ball motion

Post by kidlost2000 » February 25th, 2019, 2:54 am

Initially that was my thought, but be goes in depth about core numbers in relation to pin up vs down. How pin down reduces core numbers etc.

Then when comparing the two discuss directly how pin up out flares pin down. It's miss leading and I think intentional when re-watching it. Why do this? Especially when comparing such different pin to pap at 3.75" and 5"
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Re: Pin up vs pin down discrepancy in reality of ball motion

Post by EricHartwell » February 25th, 2019, 3:51 am

http://radicalbowling.com/uploads/downl ... s_2018.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

When you look at the drillsheet for the Intel and the chart showing the post drilled numbers for layout A & B it supports what he is saying about pin down flaring less.

What this tells me is that there is more to just pin to PAP for controlling the flare.

Its one thing to view one of Mo's seminars on youtube and another to be there live and be able to ask him questions directly.

Maybe you can get a response out of him on the facebook page to explain.

There was one tidbit of info that was new to me and is the Performance Differential explained as a Pythagorean equation explained as the square root of the sum of the squares of the int diff and total diff.
This number used to be the Differential ratio, int diff divided by the total differential to show the total flare potential.
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Re: Pin up vs pin down discrepancy in reality of ball motion

Post by kidlost2000 » February 25th, 2019, 4:13 am

The chart doesn't really answer anything. It pushes the same points. I doubt the results are much better on fb but we will see.

When looking at Radical videos and throwbot the results don't favor his points in the seminar.
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Re: Pin up vs pin down discrepancy in reality of ball motion

Post by EricHartwell » February 25th, 2019, 4:35 am

I hear you on the throwbot, he talks about the low tilt bowler being at a disadvantage but then throwbot is set up with low tilt for the demonstrations ????
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Re: Pin up vs pin down discrepancy in reality of ball motion

Post by snick » February 25th, 2019, 6:24 am

The pin-up ball in the video is in the maximum flare position, and the pin-down ball is essentially a "Rico" low flare layout.

"pin-up" and "pin-down" vernacular typically refers to pin on center line, either above or below the fingers. In this scenario, the total diff would more similar than the two extreme examples in the video.
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Re: Pin up vs pin down discrepancy in reality of ball motion

Post by kidlost2000 » February 25th, 2019, 6:49 pm

At the 53 min mark he explains that pin down balls take longer to transition. Because the drilled numbers are lower, less diff, int dif then the same pin to pap pin up ball.

That is a great point. In most cases those numbers are smaller and it doesn't appear make that big of a difference. Lets also factor a bowling ball with a higher diff and int diff to begin with, slightly lowering the diff and int diff now means the ball is going to leave 10pins and not carry even though the numbers would still be relatively high compare to other bowling balls?

Using absolutes in bowling doesn't usually go well. This seems to be a case of using absolutes and not having the numbers or on lane results to back it up.


So what happens when we look at one of Radicals own videos comparing pin up vs pin down using the same pin to pap and throwbot?

We see that for the low rev bowler the pin down ball goes longer then the pin up.

We see for the two mid 300-400 rev bowlers the pin up and pin down are nearly identical.

We see for the 600+ rev bowler the pin up ball hooking sooner and much more over all.

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So bring you spare ball seems a bit off
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Re: Pin up vs pin down discrepancy in reality of ball motion

Post by Lledsmarttam » March 11th, 2019, 2:30 pm

EricHartwell wrote:I hear you on the throwbot, he talks about the low tilt bowler being at a disadvantage but then throwbot is set up with low tilt for the demonstrations ????
Funny you should mention this, as I proposed them possibly using different tilts and rotations on the Throbot videos on the Facebook page. I was instantly greeted with other fellow radical fans who agreed. Then Bruns"nick" came in and said how much time he already spends on those throbot videos and to alter the tilt and rotation would almost double or even triple his time on each video. He also stated that it is impossible to go to high on tilt because the machine has the motor that does the rpm and it would hit the floor at some point in increasing the tilt. I however program robots at my day job and believe this could be altered to let them use it but was told its IMPOSSIBLE!


I was also told by Nick that most average bowlers have no clue what tilt even is. He said ask 5 bowlers at league and see how many actually have a clue.

I also did a questionnaire on that facebook page and out of over 100 people the average tilt was right around 12-13*.

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4.5* tilt???? Why that little? average is 12-13* I would say?
45* rotation This is fine with me.
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EricHartwell
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Re: Pin up vs pin down discrepancy in reality of ball motion

Post by EricHartwell » March 11th, 2019, 9:39 pm

Lledsmarttam wrote:
Funny you should mention this, as I proposed them possibly using different tilts and rotations on the Throbot videos on the Facebook page. I was instantly greeted with other fellow radical fans who agreed. Then Bruns"nick" came in and said how much time he already spends on those throbot videos and to alter the tilt and rotation would almost double or even triple his time on each video. He also stated that it is impossible to go to high on tilt because the machine has the motor that does the rpm and it would hit the floor at some point in increasing the tilt. I however program robots at my day job and believe this could be altered to let them use it but was told its IMPOSSIBLE!


I was also told by Nick that most average bowlers have no clue what tilt even is. He said ask 5 bowlers at league and see how many actually have a clue.

I also did a questionnaire on that facebook page and out of over 100 people the average tilt was right around 12-13*.

Throbot stats
4.5* tilt???? Why that little? average is 12-13* I would say?
45* rotation This is fine with me.
He is right though, most bowlers don't know. The exceptions are the math and physics geeks, fans of Radical and of course BowlingChat members.

It is too bad that throw bot was built with the motor on the bottom and can't emulate all bowlers.
Back in the day when E.A.R.L. and Throwbot were designed the better bowlers were low tilt. Higher tilt bowlers were at a disadvantage because ball design did not favor them. With today's strong coverstocks and cores they can now get the ball to roll and be successful.

Impossible is for people who don't want to try. If BrunsNick was paid by the hour rather than salary then maybe the impossible becomes easier.

Maybe with me being an electrician and you being a programmer we should get together and build our own robo-bowler. Im thinking a mechanical arm with a wrist and elbow joint would be a better representation. Maybe pull in someone from the medical industry and use a hand prosthesis as well.
Now all we need is a million dollar go fund me campaign. That doesn't sound completely impossible. lol
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