NEED LAYOUT HELP

Which layout is right for me?

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Lledsmarttam
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Posts: 136
Joined: August 8th, 2017, 1:40 am
THS Average: 198
Positive Axis Point: 5 1/16 by 3/4 up
Speed: 14-15 mph on monitor
Rev Rate: 325
Axis Tilt: 10
Axis Rotation: 70
Heavy Oil Ball: Optimus solid
Medium Oil Ball: Antidote, Zero Gravity
Light Oil Ball: Rave On,Pathogen
Location: Lake Geneva WI

NEED LAYOUT HELP

Post by Lledsmarttam » February 2nd, 2019, 1:27 am

Need layout help for a lefty.
15-16mph monitor
330-360 rpm using 60fps video counting frames for first revolution
15-17* tilt
60-70* rotation
Pap-4-7/8” left 5/16” down
THS on older synthetic lanes

I have him at 90* totals and 1.5;1 ratio benchmark.
Ball is the Rotogrip Hustle Ink

I thought of doing 4.5x65* for the layout but not 100% sure

Looking for control layout but wasn’t sure of pin to pap distance to use?
-Knowledge is power-
PAP-5 1/16 by 3/4 up
Speed-14-15mph on monitor
Rev-325rpm
Tilt-10*
Rotation-70*-90*

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EricHartwell
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Posts: 3588
Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous
Medium Oil Ball: Motiv Villain, Hammer Nail, Brunswick True Motion
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Columbia Nitrous
Location: Michigan

Re: NEED LAYOUT HELP

Post by EricHartwell » February 2nd, 2019, 3:21 am

The Hustle Ink is a low differential. The 4 1/2" pin to PAP is going to reduce the flare. With a 65* VAL you have pretty much drilled the reaction of the core right out of it. If this lefty was rev dominant I would agree.

Working from the Benchmark you figured factoring in the lefty factor and I get xx-4-50 for the Symmetrical Control layout.
I went with the 4" pin to PAP to keep the flare up. If it is for higher friction conditions the pin to PAP could be pushed out to 4 1/2" but it not is too close to the ring finger. Putting it in the Ring finger pushes the Pin to PAP too far on this one.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

Lledsmarttam
Member
Member
Posts: 136
Joined: August 8th, 2017, 1:40 am
THS Average: 198
Positive Axis Point: 5 1/16 by 3/4 up
Speed: 14-15 mph on monitor
Rev Rate: 325
Axis Tilt: 10
Axis Rotation: 70
Heavy Oil Ball: Optimus solid
Medium Oil Ball: Antidote, Zero Gravity
Light Oil Ball: Rave On,Pathogen
Location: Lake Geneva WI

Re: NEED LAYOUT HELP

Post by Lledsmarttam » February 2nd, 2019, 10:49 pm

EricHartwell wrote:The Hustle Ink is a low differential. The 4 1/2" pin to PAP is going to reduce the flare. With a 65* VAL you have pretty much drilled the reaction of the core right out of it. If this lefty was rev dominant I would agree.

Working from the Benchmark you figured factoring in the lefty factor and I get xx-4-50 for the Symmetrical Control layout.
I went with the 4" pin to PAP to keep the flare up. If it is for higher friction conditions the pin to PAP could be pushed out to 4 1/2" but it not is too close to the ring finger. Putting it in the Ring finger pushes the Pin to PAP too far on this one.

I should have clarified that I’ve drilled a motiv octane carbon and a tag for this gentleman. Because both these balls are to long and snappy and I believe the tag is my fault as pin was over bridge. Don’t know exact layout as I didn’t know his pap or tilt until now. He insisted just to put 3 holes in the ball and he would make it work! Lol. And kept blowing off meeting to get said numbers. I work out of my garage so meeting at bowling alley and scheduleing is sometimes difficult. None the less I am attempting to get him something smooth and controllable. That was my intention.
-Knowledge is power-
PAP-5 1/16 by 3/4 up
Speed-14-15mph on monitor
Rev-325rpm
Tilt-10*
Rotation-70*-90*

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EricHartwell
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Posts: 3588
Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous
Medium Oil Ball: Motiv Villain, Hammer Nail, Brunswick True Motion
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Columbia Nitrous
Location: Michigan

Re: NEED LAYOUT HELP

Post by EricHartwell » February 3rd, 2019, 1:03 am

The Hustle Ink is a smooth rolling ball. I don't think you need to try to over control it.
I would stay inside the Basic Range as I suggested and let the core help a little more.

The Lower Differential Cores work much better with Benchmark Layouts and Stronger Pin to PAP positions.

Your Idea will definitely be smooth and controllable but I believe carry will suffer. Maintaining a dull surface will be needed for best results. Even with my suggestion I would recommend getting rid of the factory polish. A 3000 grit matte type finish to start and adjust from there.

A couple of points to consider, one he is left handed, less track wear and traffic on his side.
Two, his higher rotation needs some help burning off to achieve a good roll.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

Lledsmarttam
Member
Member
Posts: 136
Joined: August 8th, 2017, 1:40 am
THS Average: 198
Positive Axis Point: 5 1/16 by 3/4 up
Speed: 14-15 mph on monitor
Rev Rate: 325
Axis Tilt: 10
Axis Rotation: 70
Heavy Oil Ball: Optimus solid
Medium Oil Ball: Antidote, Zero Gravity
Light Oil Ball: Rave On,Pathogen
Location: Lake Geneva WI

Re: NEED LAYOUT HELP

Post by Lledsmarttam » February 3rd, 2019, 2:52 am

EricHartwell wrote:The Hustle Ink is a smooth rolling ball. I don't think you need to try to over control it.
I would stay inside the Basic Range as I suggested and let the core help a little more.

The Lower Differential Cores work much better with Benchmark Layouts and Stronger Pin to PAP positions.

Your Idea will definitely be smooth and controllable but I believe carry will suffer. Maintaining a dull surface will be needed for best results. Even with my suggestion I would recommend getting rid of the factory polish. A 3000 grit matte type finish to start and adjust from there.

A couple of points to consider, one he is left handed, less track wear and traffic on his side.
Two, his higher rotation needs some help burning off to achieve a good roll.
Eric, is there a way to import photos from a cell phone? I can’t seem to copy and paste? I have a still picture of white tape on pap as soon as the ball hits the lane. I can’t seem to figure out how to use the overlay so rotation I listed was my approximation. Maybe he has less? I just know a tag and carbon aren’t what he was looking for and want to dot my i’s and cross my t’s before drilling this ball.

Also everyone in our league that has one, 3 guys, all say they are more ball than they expect but probably because of surface I would imagine but I’m still learning.

Oh yeah and to top it off he is probably one of the best three bowlers in our house and carries a 220+ average with older equipment
-Knowledge is power-
PAP-5 1/16 by 3/4 up
Speed-14-15mph on monitor
Rev-325rpm
Tilt-10*
Rotation-70*-90*

User avatar
EricHartwell
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Posts: 3588
Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous
Medium Oil Ball: Motiv Villain, Hammer Nail, Brunswick True Motion
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Columbia Nitrous
Location: Michigan

Re: NEED LAYOUT HELP

Post by EricHartwell » February 3rd, 2019, 3:43 am

I use my computer here. idk about getting pics off a phone. You should be able to upload an attachment.

I understand your apprehension.
My recommendation is by the numbers and given within the range of the basic arsenal.
For someone with already a full arsenal and carrying a high average these ranges can be extended.

You have feedback from other bowlers telling you this ball has some strength in its coverstock.

Do you believe the cover is strong enough by itself to achieve roll for this bowler?
You also know what he has in his arsenal what is the next ball up from this one.

If I were to open up the range for Lefty's arsenal recommendations I would go with your VAL angle thoughts but with a 4" Pin to PAP so the ball has some track flare.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

Lledsmarttam
Member
Member
Posts: 136
Joined: August 8th, 2017, 1:40 am
THS Average: 198
Positive Axis Point: 5 1/16 by 3/4 up
Speed: 14-15 mph on monitor
Rev Rate: 325
Axis Tilt: 10
Axis Rotation: 70
Heavy Oil Ball: Optimus solid
Medium Oil Ball: Antidote, Zero Gravity
Light Oil Ball: Rave On,Pathogen
Location: Lake Geneva WI

Re: NEED LAYOUT HELP

Post by Lledsmarttam » February 3rd, 2019, 4:01 am

Thank you Eric for your detailed responses and advice.

Could I possibly send the pic to you via email for your evaluation for rotation? All other things I believe are accurate and in place.

https://share.icloud.com/photos/0mXvDwe ... mfield,_WI" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Let me know if this link is viewable please
-Knowledge is power-
PAP-5 1/16 by 3/4 up
Speed-14-15mph on monitor
Rev-325rpm
Tilt-10*
Rotation-70*-90*

User avatar
EricHartwell
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 3588
Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous
Medium Oil Ball: Motiv Villain, Hammer Nail, Brunswick True Motion
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Columbia Nitrous
Location: Michigan

Re: NEED LAYOUT HELP

Post by EricHartwell » February 3rd, 2019, 5:32 am

It is viewable

Camera angle is not optimum but it is easily seen that it is high rotation and medium tilt.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

Arkansas
BCU Graduate Layouts
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Posts: 477
Joined: January 24th, 2012, 11:02 pm
Positive Axis Point: 4 1/2 Left x 3/4 Up
Speed: 18.5 off Hand
Rev Rate: 350
Axis Tilt: 17
Axis Rotation: 55
Heavy Oil Ball: Guru Mighty
Medium Oil Ball: Guru
Light Oil Ball: Torrid Affair
Preferred Company: Radical

Re: NEED LAYOUT HELP

Post by Arkansas » February 5th, 2019, 7:13 pm

EricHartwell wrote:The Hustle Ink is a low differential. The 4 1/2" pin to PAP is going to reduce the flare. With a 65* VAL you have pretty much drilled the reaction of the core right out of it. If this lefty was rev dominant I would agree.

Working from the Benchmark you figured factoring in the lefty factor and I get xx-4-50 for the Symmetrical Control layout.
I went with the 4" pin to PAP to keep the flare up. If it is for higher friction conditions the pin to PAP could be pushed out to 4 1/2" but it not is too close to the ring finger. Putting it in the Ring finger pushes the Pin to PAP too far on this one.
The difference in flare of a symmetrical high diff ball (.054) at 3 3/8" vs 4 1/2" pin to PAP is 0.2" total flare with the angle to the VAL held steady at 30*; 7.6" vs 7.4". I imagine the difference in a low diff ball would be even less, and a higher angle to VAL even less. Just some food for thought.
James Talley

Lledsmarttam
Member
Member
Posts: 136
Joined: August 8th, 2017, 1:40 am
THS Average: 198
Positive Axis Point: 5 1/16 by 3/4 up
Speed: 14-15 mph on monitor
Rev Rate: 325
Axis Tilt: 10
Axis Rotation: 70
Heavy Oil Ball: Optimus solid
Medium Oil Ball: Antidote, Zero Gravity
Light Oil Ball: Rave On,Pathogen
Location: Lake Geneva WI

Re: NEED LAYOUT HELP

Post by Lledsmarttam » February 5th, 2019, 7:52 pm

Thank you Eric
I went with 4”x60 for the hustle. Will be giving it to customer tonight. I will let you know how it rolls.

I assume you have blueprint program??
-Knowledge is power-
PAP-5 1/16 by 3/4 up
Speed-14-15mph on monitor
Rev-325rpm
Tilt-10*
Rotation-70*-90*

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