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 Post subject: Looking for layout suggestions
 Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 5:58 am Post Number: #1 Post
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I'm currently planning to buy a new ball very soon, and the ball i'm currently set on buying is the Hammer Rip'd Pearl. However the main reason i haven't ordered this ball yet, is i have concerns regarding what i want to do with the ball. I have an ideal for what i want in terms of ball motion. Yet when it comes to a layout for the ball, i don't know where to start. So i was hoping some of you on here could help out with that.

I know many of you likely have the question, why don't you talk with your PSO? I have my reasons, which i will explain. When i first started bowling several years back. I only used my fingers, no thumb. As a right hander, i stood far left on the approach, and threw the ball far right on the lane, with big hooking motion to the pocket. Over the years, the PSO guy knew this, and drilled my balls for length, with angular backend motion. Which fitted me well then...

However about a year ago, i decided to use my thumb in the ball, and started standing much farther right on the approach. With that most of my current balls didn't work well now, they would hook to much for me. After this change, i made the PSO aware of my changes. I ended up having a couple new balls drilled. However the results weren't good. As i felt i was forced to stand farther left to get the results i liked. A lot like how i threw the ball when i first started bowling.

So back to the new ball i want to get, i want to be able to stand more right on the approach, and play straighter up the lane. I would love a layout that has good length, with smooth motion downlane off the breakpoint. With me playing more to the right, i know i'm playing outside on the dryer part of the lane. Still i don't want my ball to be all jumpy when it hits friction, and turn left hard. I have did a little reading on dual angle layouts, however i don't fully understand the numbers, and what might fit my needs best. So i would appreciate any, and all help, in terms of a suggested layout that might fit my style.

Finally.. As for me the bowler. As you know from above, i'm right handed. I throw around 15-15.5mph, not speed dominate at all. I know i'm likely a bit higher on rev rate, due to not using a thumb when i first started bowling. Because even now with my thumb in the ball. My hand stays under the ball a good amount, something i hope to improve on, but for now still a comfort thing for me. As for my PAP, and tilt type info. I honestly have no clue. My PSO has never been to open on sharing such info with me. Another reason i'm asking for layout suggestions here. Lastly i do know my ball has a high track. Anyways i'm open to answering further questions, if needed. Just know in this post i listed mostly everything i know, that might be helpful. Some info i just don't have.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for layout suggestions
 Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 2:30 pm Post Number: #2 Post
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Tell your PSO you want a low flare layout, pin to pap about 2 1/4 inches away.

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 Post subject: Re: Looking for layout suggestions
 Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:06 pm Post Number: #3 Post
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I see a major flaw in your plan.
You want a heavy oil ball to play the lanes in the dry area.

As already mentioned your best chance for success would be to use a low flare layout and I will add, keep up the ball speed.

If you are set on playing the lanes this way then I would actually suggest using a weaker bowling ball.

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 Post subject: Re: Looking for layout suggestions
 Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 9:53 pm Post Number: #4 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:
I see a major flaw in your plan.
You want a heavy oil ball to play the lanes in the dry area.


Hey i appreciate the comments guys, and if anyone else wants to throw in their opinion, go for it.

As for the comment i'm quoting in this reply. I fully understand your point regarding the ball. I'm not saying my plan is to throw this ball straight up the 5 board, and it stay in the pocket. I know my ball speed limits that on balls like this.

However i would love to put a layout on the ball that will tame its reaction overall. I'm trying to get away from the hockey stick type ball motion. I would just love to be able to keep my feet at no worst then 20th board. When i was bowling with no thumb, often i was standing at 25 pushing 30+ with my feet. Now with using my thumb in the ball, i would love to close down my angles some, and be able to stay more right.

Most of my current balls, even with my thumb in the ball. To get a consistent reaction to the pocket, i need to be left with my feet at 25+ board. Just trying to get away from that. That's why i posted this thread.

I just want to find a layout that will make my ball more controlled, and not go hard left off the breakpoint, when it see's a good amount of friction downlane. I know a lot of bowlers want length, with angular motion off the breakpoint. I'm trying to get away from that. Once again, thanks for the replies so far. I'm open to more of them.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for layout suggestions
 Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 3:16 am Post Number: #5 Post
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Ok what are you wanting to hear? A low flare layout like a 90x2.25x45 is the layout to stay further outside. If not go with a pin in ring finger or something like a 70x5x70 depending on your tilt for something smoother but can be swung if needed. Other thing is physical game, try spreading the pinky way out and bring the index in next to the holes to cut down on backend motion.

If you want all the suggestions instead of generic reaction layouts, get your PSO to get your specs and Eric or another of the gurus will gladly give you custom layouts for your release.

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 Post subject: Re: Looking for layout suggestions
 Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:35 am Post Number: #6 Post
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We need:
-Oil pattern (volume, length, house or sport)
-Lane surface (wood, synthetic, etc)
-Speed (15.5 mph I am asuming this is on the monitor correct?)
-Rev rate
-Axis tilt
-Axis rotation
-Your PAP

If your pro shop refuses to give you these numbers tell them Tony from BowlingChat recommended you look for a pro shop that offers better customer service. We can give you a layout and help with ball and surface selection so that you can purchase it from a pro shop willing to work with you.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for layout suggestions
 Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:32 pm Post Number: #7 Post
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Hey 44boyd,

Once again i appreciate you replying, and this time you posted a couple layouts, which is nice. At least something for me to go off of. As for my PSO i will once again ask about my own personal specs as a bowler. I have asked in the pasted though, and was pretty much blown off.

TonyPR,

As for the oil pattern, i know it's some kind of THS at 40 feet, which it was 42 feet just a month, and a half ago. Because about 7-8 months ago, the bowling alley i bowl at. Put in new approaches, and new lanes. I know the new lanes are a harder surface, synthetic(?). The reason they cut the THS back two feet, is overall a lot of people struggled with carry down on these newer lanes.

As for my ball speed, yes i'm going off the monitor that keep score, not off my hand. So that is likely near the end of the lane speed. Like i said above, next time i see the PSO. I will try my best to get all that info. Trust me i know it's important.

The intent of this thread was to try to get some info on a type of layout that would favor what i'm trying to get in regards to ball motion. I understand with my exact bowling specs, you guys could come up with a more defined layout that fits what i'm looking for.

Once again, i appreciate the replies, i really do. I'm sorry i don't have all the info most bowlers should know.. in my case, just know its not for a lack of trying on my part.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for layout suggestions
 Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 4:08 pm Post Number: #8 Post
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http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... _Reference

Check the link and it has “how to’s” on finding rev rate, tilt etc...all you need is some masking tape and a good smart phone or camera. If you want to learn for yourself about dual angle layouts etc, it’s on the wiki page as well. So a smoother backend motion will have a larger VAL angle (50 to 90 degrees).

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 Post subject: Re: Looking for layout suggestions
 Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:02 pm Post Number: #9 Post
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Yes 44boyd gave you a couple of layouts
One for a low tilt bowler and another for a Higher tilt bowler.

Knowing release specs is the only way really to be able to give you good information.
check out this link....

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=373

lilstone87 wrote:
The intent of this thread was to try to get some info on a type of layout that would favor what i'm trying to get in regards to ball motion. I understand with my exact bowling specs, you guys could come up with a more defined layout that fits what i'm looking for.

lilstone87 wrote:
'm currently planning to buy a new ball very soon, and the ball i'm currently set on buying is the Hammer Rip'd Pearl. However the main reason i haven't ordered this ball yet, is i have concerns regarding what i want to do with the ball. I have an ideal for what i want in terms of ball motion. Yet when it comes to a layout for the ball, i don't know where to start. So i was hoping some of you on here could help out with that.

You have an ideal when it comes to ball motion, This ideal is never explained other than the fact you want to play the dry part of the lanes with a style of play and ball that promotes inside play. Good Luck.

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Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand


Last edited by EricHartwell on Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Looking for layout suggestions
 Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:22 pm Post Number: #10 Post
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Okay something I need to look into more, thanks for the info. I'm at the point, I want to be a bit more consistent as a bowler, and with me changing my style up as a bowler, over the last year, or so.

I now want to really dig in, and find a layout that fits my game more. I understand the type of ball matters, so does the surface on it. However I know it's possible to get a certain type of ball motion. It's possible I will have to move a little with my feet, depending on the ball, which is fine.

However I'm not really interested in throwing the ball from far left, to right, with an angular motion to the pocket anymore. I want to close down my angles, and play more to the right. I know when I posted, it might of come off as I wanted to playing a down, and in shot. Playing up the 5 board, with smooth motion off the breakpoint. With the Hammer Rip'd Pearl ball, I know I will likely need to move a bit left to stay in the 1-3 pocket.

As for dual angle layouts, I have done a little reading, and seen a couple video's regarding how to lay a ball out. However the first, and last angle, confuses me a bit. Because the drill angle, supposedly controls the length, 90 being max. Pin to PAP, and then the VAL angle, max of 70.

I'm do a example dual angle layout below, and if one of you don't mind. Comment on it, and what you would expect from it, in terms of ball motion.

Example: 80x2x60

From what I got out of the dual angle articles, and videos I seen. The example layout I typed above, the drill angle of 80 would give a good amount of length, the 2 inch pin to pap would make it low flare, in regards to the Hammer Rip'd Pearl, since it's a asymmetrical ball. Lastly the VAL angle of 60 would tame the ball motion download lane off the friction . Would my thinking here be right? If not, I would love to hear where my thinking is wrong. I'm in no way claiming to be the smart one in this case, so take this as more of me asking type conversation.

Finally I know me having a high ball track, we're limited in regards to layouts. My PSO is aware of my high track. The initial track normally is around one inch off my thumb hole, I have seen it around one, and half inches from the thumb as well. So it has me curious the example dual angle layout I posted above. Would that be problematic for a high track bowler? Has me curious what part of a layout can be the problematic area for high track bowlers. I hope I'm not driving you guys crazy, as I appreciate all the info. I want to learn, and use info like this to benefit me as a bowler going forward.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for layout suggestions
 Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:49 pm Post Number: #11 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:
You have an ideal when it comes to ball motion, This ideal is never explained other than the fact you want to play the dry part of the lanes with a style of play and ball that promotes inside play. Good Luck.


I understand fully. I know what I'm trying to do isn't exactly right. I plan to work on my hand positions, and such. Trust me throwing with no thumb for a long time, has hurt me now with my thumb in the ball. Because I still have the habit of wanting to keep my hand more under the ball, like I had to when I didn't use my thumb.

So I know it's possible to put a certain layout on a ball, and it not react the way I want it to, because of the way I'm throwing it. However I'm at the point, if I know the ball has been drilled to perform the way I want, and it doesn't. Then it's on me to work on my game to get the ball to work the way I want it to.

I know for a fact most of my current bowling arsenal, the PSO drilled it to have good length, storing a lot of its energy, to make an angular move in the backend. Which fit me when I bowled no thumb, and stood far left on the approach. I don't want that now. I just recently seen a ball motion chart, and out of the 4 motions it shown, The "Continuous" motion fit what I want out of my ball. Funny thing is... The Hammer Rip'd Pearl ball I want, is listed as a "Continuous" type ball on there.

EDIT: I know I also mentioned I would mostly be using it on a THS, which the outside part of the lane normally plays dryer. I do want to mention though, with the new lanes my bowling alley put in several months back. The lane surface is harder, and honestly, I notice more oil on the outside part of the lane, compared to the lanes they replaced. I mentioned in a previous post above, how a month, and a half ago, they went from 42 to 40 THS. As carry down was an issue. Compared to the lanes they replaced, the outside part of these lanes now play slicker honestly.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for layout suggestions
 Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:28 pm Post Number: #12 Post
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lilstone87 wrote:
Okay something I need to look into more, thanks for the info. I'm at the point, I want to be a bit more consistent as a bowler, and with me changing my style up as a bowler, over the last year, or so.

I now want to really dig in, and find a layout that fits my game more. I understand the type of ball matters, so does the surface on it. However I know it's possible to get a certain type of ball motion. It's possible I will have to move a little with my feet, depending on the ball, which is fine.

However I'm not really interested in throwing the ball from far left, to right, with an angular motion to the pocket anymore. I want to close down my angles, and play more to the right. I know when I posted, it might of come off as I wanted to playing a down, and in shot. Playing up the 5 board, with smooth motion off the breakpoint. With the Hammer Rip'd Pearl ball, I know I will likely need to move a bit left to stay in the 1-3 pocket.

As for dual angle layouts, I have done a little reading, and seen a couple video's regarding how to lay a ball out. However the first, and last angle, confuses me a bit. Because the drill angle, supposedly controls the length, Controls the length at which the core starts to aid in the ball reaction. 90 being max. Pin to PAP, and then the VAL angle, max of 70.

I'm do a example dual angle layout below, and if one of you don't mind. Comment on it, and what you would expect from it, in terms of ball motion.

Example: 80x2x60
long smooth reaction of the core, flare lines will start to overlap with enough revs basically creating a carrydown type reaction as the ball tracks back over oil lines from the front of the lane. This is why duller surfaces are being used with this type of low flare layout. The core is not really helping the ball to roll.

From what I got out of the dual angle articles, and videos I seen. The example layout I typed above, the drill angle of 80 would give a good amount of length, the 2 inch pin to pap would make it low flare, in regards to the Hammer Rip'd Pearl, since it's a asymmetrical ball. Lastly the VAL angle of 60 would tame the ball motion download lane off the friction . Would my thinking here be right? If not, I would love to hear where my thinking is wrong. I'm in no way claiming to be the smart one in this case, so take this as more of me asking type conversation.
Length of the skid phase is first determined by the ball surface.
Then when the core starts to rev up. The drilling angle combined with the pin to PAP determines when this takes place. Smaller drilling angles will start to rev up during the skid making this phase shorter and getting the ball to hook sooner. Larger drilling angles produce less flare as well as delaying the reaction of the core. The combination of the Pin to PAP and the VAL angle will help determine the length of the hook phase for the core. How long it will take to orientate the core to the roll phase. And during all these transitions the coverstock is reacting to the friction on the lanes and acting both additive and independently to the ball motion.


Finally I know me having a high ball track, we're limited in regards to layouts. My PSO is aware of my high track. The initial track normally is around one inch off my thumb hole, I have seen it around one, and half inches from the thumb as well. high track bowler an inch to 1 1/2" from the thumb. Not a good or even accurate description of you as a bowler. The guys reading this that almost track on the thumb are laughing and saying you are a mid track 3/4 roller.
You need to measure your tilt to determine what type of bowler you are.

http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... =Axis_tilt

No Guessing Unless you want someone to guess on what layout might be best for you.

So it has me curious the example dual angle layout I posted above. Would that be problematic for a high track bowler? I need accurate release specs including PAP to comment intelligently on this.Has me curious what part of a layout can be the problematic area for high track bowlers. Pin locations below the fingers can lead to pulling the bowtie low enough the migrating flare rolls over the finger holes. That is the risk for high track bowlers.I hope I'm not driving you guys crazy, as I appreciate all the info. I want to learn, and use info like this to benefit me as a bowler going forward.

Comments in color above

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45* rotation
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 Post subject: Re: Looking for layout suggestions
 Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:53 pm Post Number: #13 Post
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Eric,

I just wanted to post saying thanks again. I plan to talk with my PSO more about things, and see where it goes. There are times talking with my PSO things can be easy, and other times not so much. A good word for it "moody". One of the main reasons I have never pushed things when talking. Because I'm not trying to be in a pissed off mood myself.

However honestly I have wanted more info on the way I throw the ball for a while now. Ultimately it might be up to me to try to figure it out, or find another PSO who's easier to talk to. Because there can be times it feels like just because I ain't one of the guys always competing in tournaments, and such. It doesn't matter, and as long as the PSO knows, it's all that matters.

So I know some of the stuff I have typed, likely made some of you shake your head. Just understand I'm far from stupid.. It's just a matter of not knowing a lot. Can't force people to help, and share info. Which has been the case for me at times.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for layout suggestions
 Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 12:58 am Post Number: #14 Post
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You can try and install an off road suspension and tires to a race car or lower the suspension of an off road pick up truck and put small car race tires (I’ve seen the later and it’s not pretty). Ball selection is very important, especially taking into acount the coverstock chemical formulation and how it interacts with the core. Layouts will only tune the reaction, ball selection and surface are way more important (not saying layouts aren’t important). The Rip’D Pearl is designed to play inside to out. Many here have learned how to get their specs and layout their own balls because of not so cooperative shops, without your specs not much can be done.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for layout suggestions
 Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 1:37 am Post Number: #15 Post
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TonyPR,

I understand what you're saying, and i know plenty of people probably come here trying to do the same, and end up with a ball that doesn't have the motion they want.

Ultimately i think if i can come up with a controlled layout for the ball, and play with the surface on the ball. I could likely find me a spot to play, that won't push me to far left. If i get this ball drilled, and end up not happy with it. Then it's on me, and i will eat the mistake.

I do appreciate you warning me though. As i do respect your opinion on the matter. However this is one of them, i like the color scheme of the ball. So i'm try to fit a controlled type layout on it, maybe adjust the ball surface a few times, and see what i end up with.

With that said, any newer balls come to mind that would fit playing more right? I don't mind you guys suggesting a different ball. Might end being my next buy, if the Rip'd Pearl turns into MY mistake.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for layout suggestions
 Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 3:33 am Post Number: #16 Post
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Look for a medium flare symmetrical, something like a Hammer Rebel. If you have that much hand, maybe even a Hammer Vibe. The Rip’d is not gonna stay straight-ish long on a THS.

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 Post subject: Re: Looking for layout suggestions
 Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 7:35 am Post Number: #17 Post
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I re read this whole thread again and several things caught my eye:

1)-You say you want less hand under the ball. Having the hand under the ball in my opinion is a great thing as it helps to generate revs, as long as you’re rolling the ball into the lane instead of hitting up on it I wouldn’t say it’s something you need to change. Anyway if you ever want help on your physical game you cold post videos on the certified coaching section and I or other coaches here would be more than glad to help.

2)-Standing 25 or 30 is not deep, play the lane how the lane is asking you to play it, be versatile, sometimes the best carry will be with a smooth arcing ball playing the second arrow while other times a hockey stick shape crossing the 4th arrow will be better. Learn to play all parts of the lane.

3)-I agree that it isn’t a good idea to have all your balls hockey stick shape. For a house shot three to four balls and a spare ball would be a good set. Make sure they all complement each other.

Here’s an example with Hammer/EBI:

1) A smooth benchmark/medium ball such as a Web Tour, GB2 or Tactix. All these ball provide good midlane read and can be drilled with a layout that promotes a smooth continuous shape. They are all versatile balls that can be played from different angles inside or outside.

2) A strong angular Asymmetrical to swing it. Rip’D Pearl, Precision and Paradox V are all great examples.

3) An entry level ball for when the strong angular Asymm is too much or for lower volume patterns. Ultra Heat, Kinetic Emerald or Onix Vibe would be good choices.

Besides those examples, two good balls I like for playing straighter are the Tundra Solid and my current favorite the Purple Urethane from Hammer. Keep in mind I am a two hander and get to try a lot of EBI stuff because my buddy, also a two hander, is on staff and gets all the new releases. One of the great things about not using your thumb is that you can use other people’s balls without having to worry to much about fit. Hope this helps.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for layout suggestions
 Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 8:06 pm Post Number: #18 Post
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Re his 80/2/60 example, I'm surprised on one commented on the difference between symmetrical and asymmetrical balls. -- JohnP


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for layout suggestions
 Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 8:16 pm Post Number: #19 Post
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JohnP wrote:
Re his 80/2/60 example, I'm surprised on one commented on the difference between symmetrical and asymmetrical balls. -- JohnP

I assumed Asymmetrical
lilstone87 wrote:
Example: 80x2x60

From what I got out of the dual angle articles, and videos I seen. The example layout I typed above, the drill angle of 80 would give a good amount of length, the 2 inch pin to pap would make it low flare, in regards to the Hammer Rip'd Pearl, since it's a asymmetrical ball.

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45* rotation
12* tilt
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 Post subject: Re: Looking for layout suggestions
 Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 8:19 pm Post Number: #20 Post
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140 sum of the angles and low flaring pin on an asymmetrical, better be a very strong core with surface and have some rpms in the release if you want it to read. This layout in general also is not very good if the OP has high tilt and or rotation, I know he said he has a high track and in many occasions that translates to low tilt but not always.


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