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 Post subject: Let's build a bag for my house shot
 Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:39 am Post Number: #1 Post
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Currently, my local house shot is wearing me out. I feel like I'm pinched into a zone and not able to take advantage of room that "should" be there. Anytime I get in towards 13-15 and attempt to bump the dry, I either get overreaction, or, more often, hang. If I throw stronger equipment to combat the hang, the ball burns up. It's a slicker house shot (Kegel Ice, 39', 26-27 mils, 10:1), but the surface is a bit rough and the mids tend to read and blow up fairly quickly.

So, for the last 4-5 weeks, I've just been fading the ball from 8-11 out to 6-7. The friction is dependable there, but I'm throwing weaker equipment (Mag 035 - 80 x 4 x 50 and a Rack Attack Solid 80 x 4 x 50) which doesn't really let me create a ton of angle.

What I'd like to try is punch up some stuff where I can get in the oil and blend out the shot, but still have recovery downlane. I've got quite a bit of NIB on the wall, so we've got some options.

My specs
LH
17-18 MPH
375 RPM
Axis tilt - 11 degrees
Axis rotation - 70 degrees

Balls we have to play with
Ebonite Real One
Ebonite Verdict Pearl
Absolute Nirvana
Gamebreaker 2 MVP
Intel Pearl
Beyond Ridiculous
Ridiculous Pearl (orig)
Diva Pearl
Hammer Viral Hybrid
C300 Impulse Solid
Ebonite Destiny Solid
C300 Nitrous
Grease Monkey Whack

Think about it and give me a suggestion or two. I may just punch up something and tell you that you are wonderful.....or you suck. :)

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JMerrell wrote:
Mongo,
We need to work on getting that teddy bear body of yours more open throughout the approach.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's build a bag for my house shot
 Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 11:18 pm Post Number: #2 Post
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Once I looked up the first 2 on your list I didn't go any further and had my mind made up.
This is the 2 ball set I would choose...

Ebonite Real One ........... 60-3.25-60 2000 grit surface

Ebonite Verdict Pearl ...... 80-3.5-40 4000 grit surface

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45* rotation
12* tilt
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 Post subject: Re: Let's build a bag for my house shot
 Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:39 am Post Number: #3 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:
Once I looked up the first 2 on your list I didn't go any further and had my mind made up.
This is the 2 ball set I would choose...

Ebonite Real One ........... 60-3.25-60 2000 grit surface

Ebonite Verdict Pearl ...... 80-3.5-40 4000 grit surface


I've been thinking about a layout to put on that Verdict Pearl, this may be the trick.

Should I be embarrassed in admitting I had a Real One with a 50 x 4 x 60 I forgot about punching up? I noticed it last night.

I also have a Maverick with a 60 x 3.75 x 60. It tends to be good for a game, tops.

Me buying a press a couple of years ago is a blessing and a curse.

Thx for the Verdict suggestion, very possible I put some holes in it soon.

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Mongo,
We need to work on getting that teddy bear body of yours more open throughout the approach.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's build a bag for my house shot
 Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 2:38 am Post Number: #4 Post
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OK, partial follow up.

I had a little time, so I took the Real One out to give it a test run. Because it's drilled to be a little earlier, I took the surface up to 3000. I know it's not exactly what Eric suggested, but it's close.

Anyway, as I figured, it looked great for about 10-12 shots, then you could see it start to read earlier and earlier. Closing in on the second game it was flat 7 or blower 10 just about every shot. However, I still had the problem of hang if I got it out downlane.

I had a Phobia (70 x 4 x 65) in my bag and had a little better recovery with it, but with the higher VAL, it didn't corner like I'd hoped. I've had some success with a Ridiculous Pearl (50 x 3 3/4 x 40), but it really doesn't have the "bounce" off the dry I'm looking for.

In the end, I'm starting to think the combo of the surface and pattern just aren't going to allow bigger angles on the left. I'm better off with weaker stuff in the dry. It's more predictable and consistent throughout the house. Yes, I'd love to get in and wheel on it, but just don't think that's the correct approach.

Gee, imagine that, I may just have to play a shot properly vs. trying to overcome it with equipment. Dang it.

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JMerrell wrote:
Mongo,
We need to work on getting that teddy bear body of yours more open throughout the approach.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's build a bag for my house shot
 Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 3:02 am Post Number: #5 Post
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Funny, your last comment brought a smile. Hey, keep us posted on your experiences on this house and the balls, layouts, surfaces and lines you experiment with. I love following these kinds of threads.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's build a bag for my house shot
 Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 4:16 am Post Number: #6 Post
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TonyPR wrote:
Funny, your last comment brought a smile. Hey, keep us posted on your experiences on this house and the balls, layouts, surfaces and lines you experiment with. I love following these kinds of threads.


Can do. For now, I'm going back to my strategy of low diff/smooth surface stuff (Mag 035 shiny and RA Solid) in the dirt (outside of 10). I picked up a Mag 035 Pearl last night and it should fit right in between.

Really just trying to catch a couple of guys for high avg. in the house. Trying to find something to give me that little bounce that the other guys seem to have.

On the other hand, may just have to throw it a little better. ha ha.


When I get the chance, I'll get some video to illustrate how I'm playing them and the hang I experience.

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JMerrell wrote:
Mongo,
We need to work on getting that teddy bear body of yours more open throughout the approach.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's build a bag for my house shot
 Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:04 pm Post Number: #7 Post
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Well, got energetic and made it down to the drilling room. The result....
EricHartwell wrote:

Ebonite Verdict Pearl ...... 80-3.5-40


I left it with the box surface to see what I had before I started playing with it.

Threw a few shots with the Real One I had (50 x 4 x 60) and it was too much right out of the gate, so, broke out the Verdict Pearl and....well, see for yourself.



A couple of thoughts

- really liking the length. If you watch the video, you can see the ball act like it wants to start up at around 35-37 feet....then it goes another 5 feet.
- ball rolls great, but it's definitely a big asym and not something I'm throwing for 3 games. However, it's going to be a great transition ball and could be a ball I migrate to midway through the 2nd game and stay in.
- That being said, it definitely fits the bill for what I wanted. However, when it's done it is d-u-n done.

I should note that I figured if I was in a drilling mood, I might as well make the most of it and punched up an old Viral Hybrid I had sitting around for longer than I care to admit. Put a 70 x 4 1/2 x 35 on it. I realized I really don't have any taller pins (which is sad given the number of balls I have) so I tried it on this. Great decision. Didn't get any video, but I will. Long and strong is an understatement.

Kudos Eric. Thanks.

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JMerrell wrote:
Mongo,
We need to work on getting that teddy bear body of yours more open throughout the approach.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's build a bag for my house shot
 Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 4:12 am Post Number: #8 Post
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Mongo wrote:
I should note that I figured if I was in a drilling mood, I might as well make the most of it and punched up an old Viral Hybrid I had sitting around for longer than I care to admit. Put a 70 x 4 1/2 x 35 on it. I realized I really don't have any taller pins (which is sad given the number of balls I have) so I tried it on this. Great decision. Didn't get any video, but I will. Long and strong is an understatement.

I found the original Viral solid to be Very skid snappy with surface at 4000 grit and up.

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PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: Let's build a bag for my house shot
 Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 11:53 am Post Number: #9 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:
I found the original Viral solid to be Very skid snappy with surface at 4000 grit and up.


This is the 2nd Viral Hybrid I've punched up (1st one was 50 x 3 x 50) and, for me, both have been the opposite. Good length and big recovery, but not snappy at all.

Then again, like I said earlier, the lane surface (specifically the mids) really seem to be "grabby"

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Mongo,
We need to work on getting that teddy bear body of yours more open throughout the approach.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's build a bag for my house shot
 Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 12:00 pm Post Number: #10 Post
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Actually, now that I mention it, I think that's the general issue I have with that place. You can get the ball through the fronts fine, but everything reads the middles hard that explains why it's so hard to use big angles and open up the lane....well with the stuff I've got now anyway.

So, that being said, is this a situation where I need to keep surfaces smoother or do I also need to look at high sum drillings or bigger ratios? From my experience, higher VAL angles (pin down) tend not to create enough shape, but, then again, pin down stuff generally has some surface on it.

The place is "different", I'll say that.

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JMerrell wrote:
Mongo,
We need to work on getting that teddy bear body of yours more open throughout the approach.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's build a bag for my house shot
 Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:31 pm Post Number: #11 Post
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Hey Eric, I remeasured my PAP and things are a bit different
(see this thread )

The Verdict Pearl which I thought was 80 x 3.5 x 40 is actually 90 x 3 x 50.

Still rolls well, but explains the burn up I mentioned earlier.

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JMerrell wrote:
Mongo,
We need to work on getting that teddy bear body of yours more open throughout the approach.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's build a bag for my house shot
 Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:37 pm Post Number: #12 Post
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Mongo wrote:
Hey Eric, I remeasured my PAP and things are a bit different
(see this thread )

The Verdict Pearl which I thought was 80 x 3.5 x 40 is actually 90 x 3 x 50.

Still rolls well, but explains the burn up I mentioned earlier.

With your permission I would like to post the other thread here and keep the conversation together.

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PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: Let's build a bag for my house shot
 Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:22 pm Post Number: #13 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:
With your permission I would like to post the other thread here and keep the conversation together.


"Make it so" - Jean Luc Picard

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JMerrell wrote:
Mongo,
We need to work on getting that teddy bear body of yours more open throughout the approach.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's build a bag for my house shot
 Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:43 pm Post Number: #14 Post
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Mongo wrote:
I had made some grip changes (shortened span by 1/4", added 1/8" reverse in finger, took out 1/8" reverse in thumb) and noticed my track had changed. For a while, I didn't think anything about it, but finally decided it was time to check my PAP.

Let's just say the results were eye opening.

Old PAP - 4 1/2" over, 1 1/2" up
New PAP - 4 5/16" over, 1 3/4" up.

Over the last year, I had simplified my layouts quite a bit to keep thing simpler. At the time (with the old PAP, they were
45 x 4 1/2 x 70 (pin over bridge, MB just outside thumb)
65 x 4 1/2 x 40 (pin under bridge, MB on VAL)

Well, I noticed I never really had anything that popped off the spot. I now know why. My two main layouts were actually

90 x 3 7/8 x 60
45 x 3 7/8 x 75

Not exactly balls that are going to be very active downlane.

On top of that, my axis tilt/rotation have changed a bit, too.

I was at around 11 degrees of tilt with 65-70 axis rotation.
I'm now at 7 degrees of tilt and 55 degrees of axis rotation.

In other words, I've got ball roll that picks up sooner and layouts that aren't going be very responsive.

I have an embarrassing amount of equipment right now, but I feel like I need to punch up at least one or two balls with "better" layouts. At this point, I'm rambling, but this is a pretty big deal.

Ideas/thoughts?

EricHartwell wrote:
What balls are we talking about?

If you would please post your release specs in your signature similar to what I have in mine. It makes it much easier to reference when discussing layouts.

So with the grip change your release has changed, Now rolling with less tilt and rotation. The ball is going to read earlier, smoother surfaces to help get the ball down the lane.

Your PAP has only changed by 1/4" , That is not much.
There is something amiss about your before and after layouts. They are too much different for only a 1/4" PAP difference. There is no way a 40* VAL angle would be a pin down drilling with your PAP being 1 1/2"+ up from the midline.

90 x 3 7/8 x 60 the pin would be on the bridge.

I would double check PAP measurements re-measure the layouts using a Prosect for accuracy.

Mongo wrote:

My PAP moved a total of 1/2" (1/4" over and 1/4' up. )

I threw many many shots with a plastic ball. The little dot didn't move. :)

1/4" over and 1/4" up is only .35", less than 3/8". Still not much. I have easily that much difference between different balls in my set.
Using the PAP from a non-flaring ball is not going to to set up the layout accurately when drilling up a ball with substantial flare.
Your PAP will be different.

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PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: Let's build a bag for my house shot
 Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:17 pm Post Number: #15 Post
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I'll try a non-flaring ball this week and see what I get. I've always used non-flaring balls because it's so hard to gauge the PAP with the variance of the cores changing ball roll. I can throw 3 different balls and get completely different oil patterns (i.ei initial oil ring)

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We need to work on getting that teddy bear body of yours more open throughout the approach.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's build a bag for my house shot
 Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:34 pm Post Number: #16 Post
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You can do two things:
-get your PAP from a plastic ball as a control in this experiment

Method 1) get your PAP from a low flaring ball (low diff core), a medium one and a high one and average them.

Method 2) use your low flaring ball/core PAP to layout similar balls, same with your medium balls, use your medium flaring/core PAP for those and your high flaring/core PAP for high flaring balls.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's build a bag for my house shot
 Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:18 pm Post Number: #17 Post
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Not sure if this belongs in its own thread or not, but I don't to clutter up the board.

My PAP, axis tilt/rotation combo seems weird to me. Am I crazy?

PAP 4 5/16" over, 1 3/4" up
Tilt 7*
Rotation 55*

In my old brain, it just feels with that PAP I would have more tilt. Maybe it's my 80's thought process, but with a lower track I would think that would equate to more tilt.

Please educate me on this. I feel like I know things, but getting dumber by the minute.

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JMerrell wrote:
Mongo,
We need to work on getting that teddy bear body of yours more open throughout the approach.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's build a bag for my house shot
 Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:56 pm Post Number: #18 Post
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Many people with high tracks have low axis tilt and vice versa but axis tilt doesn’t necessarily correlate with PAP, the example of Mike Fagan is commonly used in this type of discussion as he has a low track with low tilt. Your up coordinate has to do with when your thumb exits in relation to your fingers, a very quick exit usually means a down coordinate and vice versa.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's build a bag for my house shot
 Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:09 pm Post Number: #19 Post
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TonyPR wrote:
Many people with high tracks have low axis tilt and vice versa but axis tilt doesn’t necessarily correlate with PAP, the example of Mike Fagan is commonly used in this type of discussion as he has a low track with low tilt. Your up coordinate has to do with when your thumb exits in relation to your fingers, a very quick exit usually means a down coordinate and vice versa.


I feel like I clear the thumb OK, but my track/PAP says otherwise.

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We need to work on getting that teddy bear body of yours more open throughout the approach.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's build a bag for my house shot
 Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:56 pm Post Number: #20 Post
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So, I went out and measured PAP on 3 different balls

Rack Attack solid - 4 3/8 over, 1 3/4 up
GB2 MVP - 4 5/16 over, 1 3/4 up
Real One - 4 1/4 over, 1 3/4 up

Not much variance between the 3.

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