Layout Advice Track Paradox

Which layout is right for me?

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Bluelobstor
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Posts: 53
Joined: July 25th, 2018, 2:29 am
THS Average: 208
Positive Axis Point: 6 1/4 over 0 up or down
Speed: 16.5 off hand
Rev Rate: 450
Axis Tilt: 10
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: AMF XS Technology
Medium Oil Ball: Track Paradox/AMF XS Technology
Light Oil Ball: Combat Tank
Preferred Company: All
Location: Kissimmee, Florida

Layout Advice Track Paradox

Post by Bluelobstor » September 14th, 2018, 4:02 pm

Good Morning Everyone,
I'm a right handed no thumb single handed bowler.
Pap 6" no up or down
Speed 16.5-17 off the hand
Rev rate 450 average
Axis tilt 10 degrees
Axis rotation around 45 degrees
Bowl mostly on Brunswick Anvilane synthetics THS 43' length

I have a paradox that I have not been happy with. I have not liked it since day 1. At the time I didn't know anything about layouts, PAP, or anything really I just bowled. I want to bowl more tournaments and sport leagues and would like to build an arsenal so I have read and learned a lot. I believe my bad reaction with the paradox is due to a 5 1/2 pin to PAP and lower tilt. I find the ball using too much energy too early and just rolls outs.

After reading the wiki about the dual angle layout I believe my sweet spot is around 120-130 +/- 20-30 ratio of 2-2.25:1. Pin to PAP of 5-6 for symmetrical and 2-3 for asymmetrical to retain tilt. Am I close with my assessment or am I way off.

For the Paradox I'm looking for a layout that is long with a smooth arc, not skid/flip. Not sure if this is the perfect ball for this but this is what I have that is a newer ball. I do have a Storm IQ Tour Fusion but the way it is setup the ball is good for drier lanes and is skid/flip. I can stand left and just throw it out to the right and not worry if its going to come back or burn up so I would prefer not to change that ball. I also have a Motive combat tank that I believe is 40-50x4-4 1/2x 40-50 but that is for light to medium when I want to play more down and in. All of my other balls are 10+ years old. I am looking to drill a new ball to replace my AMF bone XS which is my go to ball right now but that will be a special project, Lol.

Back to the Paradox, I was thinking 90x2 1/4-2 1/2x 60. My understanding is the 90 drill angle will give me length, the 60 val will lengthen the second transition for more arc, and the small pin to PAP is low flaring and will help retain tilt. Any thoughts? Am I in left field with this thinking? The ratio is 1.5 which is about .5-.75 lower than ideal.

I am looking forward to all replies and suggestions.

If this layout is good for me would it be better on fresh oil, when the lanes break down, shorter patterns, longer patterns, sport, the THS I bowl on? I appreciate any suggestions or critiques.

Jason
PAP 6 1/4 over 0 up or down. Pap figured from the center of the bridge.
Rev Rate ~450
Speed 16.5 off the hand
Axis Tilt 10 Degrees
Axis Rotation 40-50 degrees
1 Hand 2 Finger Delivery

gunso
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Re: Layout Advice Track Paradox

Post by gunso » September 14th, 2018, 4:15 pm

Mo suggests keeping the Val angle 45 for that layout so I'd stick to that. otherwise I think you'll be happy with it.

Bluelobstor
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Member
Posts: 53
Joined: July 25th, 2018, 2:29 am
THS Average: 208
Positive Axis Point: 6 1/4 over 0 up or down
Speed: 16.5 off hand
Rev Rate: 450
Axis Tilt: 10
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: AMF XS Technology
Medium Oil Ball: Track Paradox/AMF XS Technology
Light Oil Ball: Combat Tank
Preferred Company: All
Location: Kissimmee, Florida

Re: Layout Advice Track Paradox

Post by Bluelobstor » September 14th, 2018, 5:04 pm

Thanks Gunso,
Out of curiosity why keep the val at 45 for that layout? Is the sum too high, ratio too low, not enough time to hook with that high of drill angle? I'm just trying to learn. I believe the ball has oob finish. Should I keep it at that or throw first and see adjustment should be made?
PAP 6 1/4 over 0 up or down. Pap figured from the center of the bridge.
Rev Rate ~450
Speed 16.5 off the hand
Axis Tilt 10 Degrees
Axis Rotation 40-50 degrees
1 Hand 2 Finger Delivery

gunso
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Posts: 291
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Location: Iceland

Re: Layout Advice Track Paradox

Post by gunso » September 14th, 2018, 5:28 pm

don't remember the reason he gave for it. just throw it and adjust surface depending on how you like it. I rarely keep the surface the same on my bowling balls. it all depends on what I'm playing on next

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MegaMav
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THS Average: 230
Sport Average: 200
Positive Axis Point: 4 15/16 Over 3/8 Up
Speed: 15.25 MPH - Camera
Rev Rate: 350
Axis Tilt: 14
Axis Rotation: 40
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical - The Closer
Medium Oil Ball: Brunswck - Method Solid
Light Oil Ball: DV8 - Poison Pearl
Preferred Company: Radical Bowling Technologies
Location: Malta, NY

Re: Layout Advice Track Paradox

Post by MegaMav » September 14th, 2018, 5:40 pm

gunso wrote:don't remember the reason he gave for it.
I do. Flare safeness.
“When you prepare for everything, you’re ready for anything.” - Bill Walsh

Bluelobstor
Member
Member
Posts: 53
Joined: July 25th, 2018, 2:29 am
THS Average: 208
Positive Axis Point: 6 1/4 over 0 up or down
Speed: 16.5 off hand
Rev Rate: 450
Axis Tilt: 10
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: AMF XS Technology
Medium Oil Ball: Track Paradox/AMF XS Technology
Light Oil Ball: Combat Tank
Preferred Company: All
Location: Kissimmee, Florida

Re: Layout Advice Track Paradox

Post by Bluelobstor » September 14th, 2018, 7:33 pm

MegaMav wrote:
I do. Flare safeness.
Thanks MegaMav,
If you don't mind could you expound on that statement a little bit. I thought pin to PAP affected flare. Is it so the track doesn't clip the thumb hole?
PAP 6 1/4 over 0 up or down. Pap figured from the center of the bridge.
Rev Rate ~450
Speed 16.5 off the hand
Axis Tilt 10 Degrees
Axis Rotation 40-50 degrees
1 Hand 2 Finger Delivery

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stevespo
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Posts: 572
Joined: August 11th, 2014, 8:07 pm
THS Average: 225
Positive Axis Point: 5.75" x + 3/8"
Speed: 17+ off hand (camera)
Rev Rate: 375
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Guru Master, Track Paradox
Medium Oil Ball: Radical Primo, Hammer Black Widow Red Legend Pearl
Light Oil Ball: Hammer Arson Low Flare Solid, Radical Jackpot

Re: Layout Advice Track Paradox

Post by stevespo » September 14th, 2018, 8:10 pm

I just drilled an original blue Paradox 90 x 2 1/4 x 45, after seeing Mo present in East Hartford.

I'm a medium rev/speed bowler, but also lower tilt like you. The motion on the ball is quite nice, fairly tame even with a lot of surface (360/500 grit). I rolled a few games on PBA Chameleon and killed it on the fresh. My rev dominant teammate loves short pin (1-2") layouts, so it's worth a try for you.

I find the Paradox is a very versatile ball, but the pin distance and surface treatment is key. I love my 65 x 4 x 40 on house shots and most sport. I had another 30 x 5 x 50, which was nice on heavy sport shots.

I also have a Trilogy that was 65 x 5 3/4 x 45 and as you describe it rolls forward almost instantly, so it's quite condition dependent. Moving in and creating angle - yes. General use, not so much. I plugged it and went 60 x 4 x 40 again and it's more versatile for me.

Steve
18-19 mph (15.5-16.5 on monitor), 375 rpm, PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8 up, AT: 12*, AR: 45*

Bluelobstor
Member
Member
Posts: 53
Joined: July 25th, 2018, 2:29 am
THS Average: 208
Positive Axis Point: 6 1/4 over 0 up or down
Speed: 16.5 off hand
Rev Rate: 450
Axis Tilt: 10
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: AMF XS Technology
Medium Oil Ball: Track Paradox/AMF XS Technology
Light Oil Ball: Combat Tank
Preferred Company: All
Location: Kissimmee, Florida

Re: Layout Advice Track Paradox

Post by Bluelobstor » September 14th, 2018, 11:46 pm

stevespo wrote:I just drilled an original blue Paradox 90 x 2 1/4 x 45, after seeing Mo present in East Hartford.

I'm a medium rev/speed bowler, but also lower tilt like you. The motion on the ball is quite nice, fairly tame even with a lot of surface (360/500 grit). I rolled a few games on PBA Chameleon and killed it on the fresh. My rev dominant teammate loves short pin (1-2") layouts, so it's worth a try for you.

I find the Paradox is a very versatile ball, but the pin distance and surface treatment is key. I love my 65 x 4 x 40 on house shots and most sport. I had another 30 x 5 x 50, which was nice on heavy sport shots.

I also have a Trilogy that was 65 x 5 3/4 x 45 and as you describe it rolls forward almost instantly, so it's quite condition dependent. Moving in and creating angle - yes. General use, not so much. I plugged it and went 60 x 4 x 40 again and it's more versatile for me.

Steve
Thanks Stevespo,

I'm glad to hear that layout worked for you. I'm hoping to have similar results as what you describe.
PAP 6 1/4 over 0 up or down. Pap figured from the center of the bridge.
Rev Rate ~450
Speed 16.5 off the hand
Axis Tilt 10 Degrees
Axis Rotation 40-50 degrees
1 Hand 2 Finger Delivery

Bluelobstor
Member
Member
Posts: 53
Joined: July 25th, 2018, 2:29 am
THS Average: 208
Positive Axis Point: 6 1/4 over 0 up or down
Speed: 16.5 off hand
Rev Rate: 450
Axis Tilt: 10
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: AMF XS Technology
Medium Oil Ball: Track Paradox/AMF XS Technology
Light Oil Ball: Combat Tank
Preferred Company: All
Location: Kissimmee, Florida

Re: Layout Advice Track Paradox

Post by Bluelobstor » September 15th, 2018, 3:55 am

Thanks to all that have answered. One last thing, would I be better off with 2 , 2 1/4, or 2 1/2 pin to PAP?
PAP 6 1/4 over 0 up or down. Pap figured from the center of the bridge.
Rev Rate ~450
Speed 16.5 off the hand
Axis Tilt 10 Degrees
Axis Rotation 40-50 degrees
1 Hand 2 Finger Delivery

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EricHartwell
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Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous
Medium Oil Ball: Motiv Villain, Hammer Nail, Brunswick True Motion
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Columbia Nitrous
Location: Michigan

Re: Layout Advice Track Paradox

Post by EricHartwell » September 16th, 2018, 1:18 am

Bluelobstor wrote:Thanks to all that have answered. One last thing, would I be better off with 2 , 2 1/4, or 2 1/2 pin to PAP?
2" for less flare and more length to roll.
2 1/2" will have more flare and will roll earlier.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

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stevespo
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Posts: 572
Joined: August 11th, 2014, 8:07 pm
THS Average: 225
Positive Axis Point: 5.75" x + 3/8"
Speed: 17+ off hand (camera)
Rev Rate: 375
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Guru Master, Track Paradox
Medium Oil Ball: Radical Primo, Hammer Black Widow Red Legend Pearl
Light Oil Ball: Hammer Arson Low Flare Solid, Radical Jackpot

Re: Layout Advice Track Paradox

Post by stevespo » September 16th, 2018, 11:53 pm

With my 90 x 2 1/4 x 45 Paradox, I'm seeing about 12 oil rings and about 3" of flare in the oil. Ring spacing is about 1/4" apart. Going +/- 1/4" isn't going to produce much of a change, but if you want less flare, go lower.

Obviously, this is a high flaring ball with a tame drilling. With a 4" pin to PAP, my other Paradox is closer to the max flare position and the spacing is more like 3/8" to 1/2" on the rings. It's in the 5"+ range for total flare. Completely different shape.

Steve
18-19 mph (15.5-16.5 on monitor), 375 rpm, PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8 up, AT: 12*, AR: 45*

Bluelobstor
Member
Member
Posts: 53
Joined: July 25th, 2018, 2:29 am
THS Average: 208
Positive Axis Point: 6 1/4 over 0 up or down
Speed: 16.5 off hand
Rev Rate: 450
Axis Tilt: 10
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: AMF XS Technology
Medium Oil Ball: Track Paradox/AMF XS Technology
Light Oil Ball: Combat Tank
Preferred Company: All
Location: Kissimmee, Florida

Re: Layout Advice Track Paradox

Post by Bluelobstor » September 16th, 2018, 11:55 pm

EricHartwell wrote: 2" for less flare and more length to roll.
2 1/2" will have more flare and will roll earlier.
Thank You Eric! I think I will go with 2".
PAP 6 1/4 over 0 up or down. Pap figured from the center of the bridge.
Rev Rate ~450
Speed 16.5 off the hand
Axis Tilt 10 Degrees
Axis Rotation 40-50 degrees
1 Hand 2 Finger Delivery

Bluelobstor
Member
Member
Posts: 53
Joined: July 25th, 2018, 2:29 am
THS Average: 208
Positive Axis Point: 6 1/4 over 0 up or down
Speed: 16.5 off hand
Rev Rate: 450
Axis Tilt: 10
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: AMF XS Technology
Medium Oil Ball: Track Paradox/AMF XS Technology
Light Oil Ball: Combat Tank
Preferred Company: All
Location: Kissimmee, Florida

Re: Layout Advice Track Paradox

Post by Bluelobstor » September 17th, 2018, 12:09 am

stevespo wrote:With my 90 x 2 1/4 x 45 Paradox, I'm seeing about 12 oil rings and about 3" of flare in the oil. Ring spacing is about 1/4" apart. Going +/- 1/4" isn't going to produce much of a change, but if you want less flare, go lower.

Obviously, this is a high flaring ball with a tame drilling. With a 4" pin to PAP, my other Paradox is closer to the max flare position and the spacing is more like 3/8" to 1/2" on the rings. It's in the 5"+ range for total flare. Completely different shape.

Steve
Thank you for this. I think lower flare would be better for me as I don't have a problem getting the ball to move. When I struggle its usually because the ball is moving too early and rolling out.

After taking everyone's input into consideration I think I will go with 90x2x45 unless anyone thinks me not putting a thumb hole in the ball changes anything?
PAP 6 1/4 over 0 up or down. Pap figured from the center of the bridge.
Rev Rate ~450
Speed 16.5 off the hand
Axis Tilt 10 Degrees
Axis Rotation 40-50 degrees
1 Hand 2 Finger Delivery

Bluelobstor
Member
Member
Posts: 53
Joined: July 25th, 2018, 2:29 am
THS Average: 208
Positive Axis Point: 6 1/4 over 0 up or down
Speed: 16.5 off hand
Rev Rate: 450
Axis Tilt: 10
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: AMF XS Technology
Medium Oil Ball: Track Paradox/AMF XS Technology
Light Oil Ball: Combat Tank
Preferred Company: All
Location: Kissimmee, Florida

Re: Layout Advice Track Paradox

Post by Bluelobstor » September 22nd, 2018, 8:24 pm

I drilled the Paradox 90x2x45 and love the reaction I am getting with this ball especially compared to the previous layout.

Once I get a chance to practice a little more with this ball and the new line I have to play then I will try it in league and report back. My AMF XS bone white is rolling so nice right now that I don't want to change at the moment.

Jason
PAP 6 1/4 over 0 up or down. Pap figured from the center of the bridge.
Rev Rate ~450
Speed 16.5 off the hand
Axis Tilt 10 Degrees
Axis Rotation 40-50 degrees
1 Hand 2 Finger Delivery

Bluelobstor
Member
Member
Posts: 53
Joined: July 25th, 2018, 2:29 am
THS Average: 208
Positive Axis Point: 6 1/4 over 0 up or down
Speed: 16.5 off hand
Rev Rate: 450
Axis Tilt: 10
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: AMF XS Technology
Medium Oil Ball: Track Paradox/AMF XS Technology
Light Oil Ball: Combat Tank
Preferred Company: All
Location: Kissimmee, Florida

Re: Layout Advice Track Paradox

Post by Bluelobstor » November 2nd, 2018, 9:06 pm

I've been bowling with this ball a little more and love it. Whenever I want to play down and in because every one else is swinging it this ball works perfectly.

Thanks again for everyone's advice!

I do have one more question.

Right now the surface on the ball is oob. If I change the surface to a slightly lower grit I know the ball should make its move a little earlier but it shouldn't change the shape correct?

Thanks Jason
PAP 6 1/4 over 0 up or down. Pap figured from the center of the bridge.
Rev Rate ~450
Speed 16.5 off the hand
Axis Tilt 10 Degrees
Axis Rotation 40-50 degrees
1 Hand 2 Finger Delivery

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