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 Post subject: Static weights start today....what about finger/thumb weight
 Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:16 pm Post Number: #1 Post
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Most of the discussion and focus has been on side weights....what about finger vs thumb?


Playing around with 3ozs of positive side weight vs 3ozs negative side weight with a few different styles of bowlers and conditions on blueprint shows almost a 2 board difference. Nothing I'd really pay attention to considering we are swinging roughly 6ozs of weight.......

Before signing out and calling it a night I tried the differences in finger weight. This got interesting. A ball with say 1/2oz finger weight to zero finger weight had about the same reaction. As the finger weight increased to 1, 2, and almost 3ozs the ball reaction given by blueprint was noticeably different. In most cases more so then any weight hole option would generate. As finger weight increased so did the ball length. You also had a decrease in hook. So 1/2 oz finger weight hooked sooner and more total boards then a ball with higher finger weight. This was tested on a symmetric ball with a 5" pin to pap and a 20 degree val angle. I increased or decreased the pin to cg distance of the ball to create more or less finger weight.

Then keeping the same layout I started to try the results of increasing thumb weight. Once again increasing the pin to cg distance and the balls initial top weight in order to do so. As thumb weight increased so did the balls hook. The ball would hook sooner and more total boards the same as increased finger weight did the opposite.

Curious if USBC knew this and didn't care and what manufactures may consider when trying to take advantage of this in future drilling suggestions. I would have never guessed you'd see minimal results with changing side weight and a more noticeable results with finger/thumb weight like I did when running these simulations with blueprint.

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 Post subject: Re: Static weights start today....what about finger/thum wei
 Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:39 pm Post Number: #2 Post
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kidlost2000 wrote:
Most of the discussion and focus has been on side weights....what about finger vs thumb?


Playing around with 3ozs of positive side weight vs 3ozs negative side weight with a few different styles of bowlers and conditions on blueprint shows almost a 2 board difference. Nothing I'd really pay attention to considering we are swinging roughly 6ozs of weight.......

Before signing out and calling it a night I tried the differences in finger weight. This got interesting. A ball with say 1/2oz finger weight to zero finger weight had about the same reaction. As the finger weight increased to 1, 2, and almost 3ozs the ball reaction given by blueprint was noticeably different. In most cases more so then any weight hole option would generate. As finger weight increased so did the ball length. You also had a decrease in hook. So 1/2 oz finger weight hooked sooner and more total boards then a ball with higher finger weight. This was tested on a symmetric ball with a 5" pin to pap and a 20 degree val angle. I increased or decreased the pin to cg distance of the ball to create more or less finger weight.

Then keeping the same layout I started to try the results of increasing thumb weight. Once again increasing the pin to cg distance and the balls initial top weight in order to do so. As thumb weight increased so did the balls hook. The ball would hook sooner and more total boards the same as increased finger weight did the opposite.

Curious if USBC knew this and didn't care and what manufactures may consider when trying to take advantage of this in future drilling suggestions. I would have never guessed you'd see minimal results with changing side weight and a more noticeable results with finger/thumb weight like I did when running these simulations with blueprint.

I read a book once (don't remember exactly who wrote it) where they were saying all offset weights were just one weight. It is the distance you move that weight from the track which matters. Therefore; if you have a parellel track (equal distance from fingers and equal distance from thumb), that finger/ thumb weight is said distance from track. It does not matter if it is finger or thumb wt., you will get the same reaction. If your track is farther from fingers than thumb, then finger wt is farther from track than thumb wt and it will give you a different reaction. We just ignore the holes in the ball and it is the distance from the track that the wt is. doesn't matter if it is finger or thumb wt.
Bill (Blueprint) has taken it a step farther and said that wts do effect reaction, but sometimes they cancel each other. If you move the CG very far to get side wt., you actually lower the top wt and they cancel each other out. With the ability now to move 3 ozs instead of only one, that will change. You can move the side wt a greater distance and by using a ball with more initial top wt, you can have both. He also says that the ball roll will effect the wt shifts differently because the wts will be on the negative side of the roll more time for some and not for others. It has been brought up on this forum, that we can use the distance from PAP instead of the track and come up with the same ideas.
You might change the PAP in the Blueprint to show PAP changes of over and up v.s over and down for example and run the same tests and see if you get different results. Change tilts also. the results are probably not "graphable" ( each bowlers specs will have different results as to what each imbalance will cause compared to the same static imbalance to someone with different specs).
Please let us know what you find out. With the modern cores, these static shifts are still very small shifts in the center of the ball. However; they did decide (using throwbot) that these shifts did cause them to use different laydown points. i took that to mean that when you used heavy negative wt, you had to move throwbot to a different position and then the ball reacted very similar using an overlay view.


Last edited by elgavachon on Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Static weights start today....what about finger/thum wei
 Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:59 pm Post Number: #3 Post
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elgavachon wrote:
I read a book once (don't remember exactly who wrote it) where they were saying all offset weights were just one weight. It is the distance you move that weight from the track which matters. Therefore; if you have a parellel track (equal distance from fingers and equal distance from thumb), that finger/ thumb weight is said distance from track. It does not matter if it is finger or thumb wt., you will get the same reaction. If your track is farther from fingers than thumb, then finger wt is farther from track than thumb wt and it will give you a different reaction. We just ignore the holes in the ball and it is the distance from the track that the wt is. doesn't matter if it is finger or thumb wt.
Bill (Blueprint) has taken it a step farther and said that wts do effect reaction, but sometimes they cancel each other. If you move the CG very far to get side wt., you actually lower the top wt and they cancel each other out. With the ability now to move 3 ozs instead of only one, that will change. You can move the side wt a greater distance and by using a ball with more initial top wt, you can have both. He also says that the ball roll will effect the wt shifts differently because the wts will be on the negative side of the roll more time for some and not for others. It has been brought up on this forum, that we can use the distance from PAP instead of the track and come up with the same ideas.
You might change the PAP in the Blueprint to show PAP changes of over and up v.s over and down for example and run the same tests and see if you get different results. Change tilts also. the results are probably not linear ( each bowlers specs will have different results as to what each imbalance will cause compared to the same static imbalance to someone with different specs).
Please let us know what you find out. With the modern cores, these static shifts are still very small shifts in the center of the ball.



So far I have only tested it with two different bowlers stats on bp for the results. Read online somewhere and haven't gone back to find it in reference to USBCs testing using throwbot. It was stated that the USBC article stated when trying to test finger weight with the throwbot they encountered issues with the launch angle and they were unable to do the testing needed to document it. Or something along those lines.

I've not gone back through all of their stuff to try and find this because their site does not typically make this stuff easy to find. I believe it was posted in the ball motion study...somewhere. maybe lol

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 Post subject: Re: Static weights start today....what about finger/thum wei
 Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:08 pm Post Number: #4 Post
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kidlost2000 wrote:


So far I have only tested it with two different bowlers stats on bp for the results. Read online somewhere and haven't gone back to find it in reference to USBCs testing using throwbot. It was stated that the USBC article stated when trying to test finger weight with the throwbot they encountered issues with the launch angle and they were unable to do the testing needed to document it. Or something along those lines.

I've not gone back through all of their stuff to try and find this because their site does not typically make this stuff easy to find. I believe it was posted in the ball motion study...somewhere. maybe lol
I must have added that to my statement before you posted what you were writing. I edited mine, but I just edited the word linear to mean graphable. What i understood them to say about throwbot was that when they used the 2.6 ozs on the negative side, the initial track started at a different location on the lane, so to keep the overlay the same, they would have to move throwbot a few boards. Kind of line the ball would fall slightly left or right with the different imbalance is how I visuallized it.


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 Post subject: Re: Static weights start today....what about finger/thum wei
 Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:19 pm Post Number: #5 Post
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elgavachon wrote:
I must have added that to my statement before you posted what you were writing. I edited mine, but I just edited the word linear to mean graphable. What i understood them to say about throwbot was that when they used the 2.6 ozs on the negative side, the initial track started at a different location on the lane, so to keep the overlay the same, they would have to move throwbot a few boards. Kind of line the ball would fall slightly left or right with the different imbalance is how I visuallized it.
Found it:
Here is their quote: "The results showing us that thumb weights are affecting E.A.R.L.’s launch angles make sense. When a ball with imbalance rotations – like in
E.A.R.L.’s back swing – it tends to oscillate back and forth as the center of mass goes around in a circle. Combine that with E.A.R.L.’s axis
rotation and now that ball is also oscillating left and right while E.A.R.L.’s is spinning the ball up. As E.A.R.L. follows through and releases the
ball, balls with thumb weight will cause the weight to be on one side of the oscillation, balls within negative thumb, or finger weight, will be on
the opposite side of the oscillation. Our measurements on total hook and total angle were unaffected by this since we measure hook and
angle from the initial trajectory. However, the launch angles needed to be adjusted to make sense of the average ball paths. By using this
information, we were able to adjust the launch angles by rotating the ball paths. The unadjusted and adjusted ball paths can be seen on the
next page."

CORE16-ImbalanceEffectswithFixedPinPlacement.pdf

Keep in mind that that they did not change the bowler's specs on E.A.R.L. and do other graphs. According to Bill's testing with Blueprint, the different specs would produce different graphs. (He was using a version of Blueprint not yet available to the public).


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 Post subject: Re: Static weights start today....what about finger/thumb we
 Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2018 7:21 pm Post Number: #6 Post
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Will the Storm VLS method continue to be an effective tool for drilling?


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 Post subject: Re: Static weights start today....what about finger/thumb we
 Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:54 pm Post Number: #7 Post
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So after playing with different bowler styles and pin to pap options the results stayed the same.

If comparing a pin up vs pin down layout with the same pin to pap the ball reaction of the pin down hooked sooner, and more total board then the pin up option. Pin down having more thumb weight, pin up having more finger weight. When doing the same two layouts and adjusting the ball pin distance and top weight so that the pin up drilling and the pin down drilling have almost identical static weights the layouts when graphed on the lanes on sport or house conditions overlapped each other showing no difference.

If keeping the pin up layout and giving the ball 2-3 ozs of finger weight vs the same pin up layout and 1-2 ozs of thumb weight the ball with the thumb weight hooked sooner and more total boards. Once again the differences can be anywhere from 2-5 boards depending on the static weight differences for finger vs thumb weight. This was more surprising to me then 3ozs positive side weight vs negative side weight that was 1 to 2 boards difference max.

I'd like to see the on lane difference with a real bowler throwing a ball with 3ozs finger weight vs 0 finger weight on the same ball and the same layout. Just out of curiosity.

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 Post subject: Re: Static weights start today....what about finger/thumb we
 Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 7:32 am Post Number: #8 Post
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The new static weight rules were not intended to change the way we layout balls. They simply allow existing balance holes to be filled that would otherwise (under the 1oz rules) result in illegal balls.

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 Post subject: Re: Static weights start today....what about finger/thumb we
 Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 1:47 pm Post Number: #9 Post
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Can't wait to see what the mad scientist Mo comes up with.His facebook live video a few weeks ago he said he has 6 new sym and 6 asym layouts coming after the 20th this month.

Kid thanks for posting the info with blueprint.Very interesting stuff as a rev dominant bowler I find the smaller val angle of 20 interesting.I need length with less backend hook.Any layout I use with a larger val angle puts the thumb close to cg seems balls always hook earlier for me.Early hook is not my friend.


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