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 Post subject: Surprising result from different pin position
 Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 10:31 pm Post Number: #1 Post
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Would anyone have an explanation for this result.
I have an absolute curve, Hammer, which was drilled with the Rico layout. As an experiment in a new grip the finger holes were plugged and the thumb hole became the balance hole. The new grip had the pin an inch right from the thumb hole and the cg was 2 inches right from the grip centre. The ball is in static balance.
Originally I threw this with a track that ran parallel to thumb and fingers, around 2 inches off the holes with a pap of 4.5 over and 1/2 up.
With the new layout the track is now just off both the thumb and fingers with a pap of 5.75 over and 0.25 up.
Can someone explain why the track has moved so drastically, when my release is virtually the same.

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 Post subject: Re: Surprising result from different pin position
 Posted: Tue May 08, 2018 2:08 am Post Number: #2 Post
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This would be a good one to post some pictures of.

The pin is 1" right of the thumb, where is the balance hole?
What is the Pin to PAP measurement?
Where are the bowties located?

The new thumb hole right next to the pin has lowered the differential acting like a P1 hole.
If the old thumbhole is below the midline it is also acting like a P1 hole and reducing the flare. That is why the PAP has moved away from the grip. Higher flaring balls/layouts produce shorter PAP measurements.

With the new rules coming about you will have to plug the old thumb/balance hole.
Drill the fingers deeper for a stronger reaction.

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 Post subject: Re: Surprising result from different pin position
 Posted: Tue May 08, 2018 9:06 am Post Number: #3 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:
..............With the new rules coming about you will have to plug the old thumb/balance hole...........


Mind you, the “have to” only applies to bowlers in competitive play, (for rank or prize or both) and not the every day Jack or Jill neighborhood bowler.

I realize that that probably goes without saying, but..........there are a whole lot more of us non-Pro bowlers out there, who STILL bowl for the fun of it!!

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 Post subject: Re: Surprising result from different pin position
 Posted: Tue May 08, 2018 1:57 pm Post Number: #4 Post
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soupy1957 wrote:

Mind you, the “have to” only applies to bowlers in competitive play, (for rank or prize or both) and not the every day Jack or Jill neighborhood bowler.

I realize that that probably goes without saying, but..........there are a whole lot more of us non-Pro bowlers out there, who STILL bowl for the fun of it!!


The more correct answer would be if you do not intend on bowling USBC sanctioned events, whether they be league or tournament, then the number of holes or drilling of the ball doesn't matter.

There are a whole lot of non-pro bowlers who bowl in leagues in neighborhood centers that happen to be USBC sanctioned.

I understand why some want to flip their nose at USBC, but even if you don't intend to bowl in sanctioned leagues or tournaments, I can't see why you would purposely drill your ball to not be within USBC spec. You never know when you will want to compete and by ignoring the rules you eliminate part or all of your arsenal.


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 Post subject: Re: Surprising result from different pin position
 Posted: Tue May 08, 2018 6:08 pm Post Number: #5 Post
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Hi Eric,
this should help, the initial finger holes are near the bottom of the ball. I plugged the original balance hole which happened to be in one of the new finger holes!


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

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 Post subject: Re: Surprising result from different pin position
 Posted: Tue May 08, 2018 6:53 pm Post Number: #6 Post
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You said you were experimenting with your grip. What changes were made?

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 Post subject: Re: Surprising result from different pin position
 Posted: Tue May 08, 2018 9:49 pm Post Number: #7 Post
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I'm curious what you were hoping to accomplish with that particular layout?

Pin (low RG axis marker) near the thumb on a symmetrical core means there is another pin up and to the left of the fingers that is much more than 6.25" from the PAP. That would be the other end of the low RG axis.

That pin position is going to influence the bow-tie location and possibly push the limit of flare safe zone. No?

Steve

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 Post subject: Re: Surprising result from different pin position
 Posted: Tue May 08, 2018 10:37 pm Post Number: #8 Post
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To answer some of the questions
I increased my span and increased the reverse in both fingers, this feels more comfortable and my hand lies flatter on the ball. I've been experimenting with a number of factors. the main one going back to 15 from 14 that I've used for about 6 years. This has also led to a change in thumb pitch which was around 1/4 reverse and I am now using 1/4 to 5/16 forward. This is also allowing me to relax and lose some of the grip pressure.
As to why drill this layout, I had this ball drilled with Rico you can see the jpeg. Having read an article by Bill hall about low tracks, I thought to experiment bring the pin closer to the thumb than the fingers,use the original thumb hole as the balance hole and only needed to plug the original finger holes. So a change in grip with an experimental layout.
What really was the surprise was how much the track was pulled up from a low track to a very high track almost on the thumb and finger holes
As the ball is a sym I wasn't too concerned about the flare safe or the change in differentials.
As to the legality and competition, this was an experiment and the ball will be dead by 2020!!!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Surprising result from different pin position
 Posted: Wed May 09, 2018 3:53 pm Post Number: #9 Post
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I suspect your bowties have shifted so much that the flare is reversed, with the furthest flares from the holes being the first ones and the ones closest to the holes being the final ones. Put a piece of tape on where your PAP has been in the past and I'll bet it's still there. -- JohnP


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 Post subject: Re: Surprising result from different pin position
 Posted: Wed May 09, 2018 5:20 pm Post Number: #10 Post
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What JohnP said. I'm all for experimentation, but flare safe zones and dual angle guidelines are recommended for a reason.

You've done the rough equivalent for a left handed full roller layout, so how that will react for a righty when it hits the lane is anyone's guess. Anybody want to run this through Blueprint?

How does the ball roll? You've achieved the higher track, but where are the bowties, and what is the reaction like? Does it roll and transition like you expected?

Steve

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 Post subject: Re: Surprising result from different pin position
 Posted: Sat May 12, 2018 11:55 pm Post Number: #11 Post
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Been back to the lanes to study the oil rings..they are reversed and I get about 3" of flare. Bow tie round the back of the ball and it provides quite a bit of control when it comes off the oil on a fresh condition. I've not seen this before as have always used "pin safe " positions. As an experiment it has given me two benefits- grip change is great and influence on tracking will take me back to the drawing board.

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