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 Post subject: Low flare symmetric THS layout for higher tilt and rotation
 Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 11:54 am Post Number: #1 Post
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Since on a symmetric you can get lower flare with either longer or shorter pin to pap distances...

For medium high tilt and rotation, do I want a pin to pap around 3" or less? Thanks!

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 Post subject: Re: Low flare symmetric THS layout for higher tilt and rotat
 Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:08 pm Post Number: #2 Post
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todvan wrote:
Since on a symmetric you can get lower flare with either longer or shorter pin to pap distances...

For medium high tilt and rotation, do I want a pin to pap around 3" or less? Thanks!

3" on a higher differential ball will still give a good amount of flare.

It depends on ball choice. What ball are you considering?

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12* tilt
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 Post subject: Re: Low flare symmetric THS layout for higher tilt and rotat
 Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:55 pm Post Number: #3 Post
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I am looking a the Radical Beyond Ridiculous. Is low flare a good layout for playing up and in on the same line as your first ball (up the boards) after it stops hitting?

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~60* rotation
~17* tilt
~250 RPM
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 Post subject: Re: Low flare symmetric THS layout for higher tilt and rotat
 Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 4:29 pm Post Number: #4 Post
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I am hesisitent to say that you will be able to stay on a burned hyo line without moving.
Is the Beyond Ridiculous a clean enough coverstock to be able to do this? I don't know.

What is your first ball,layout and surface out of the bag?

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PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
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12* tilt
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 Post subject: Re: Low flare symmetric THS layout for higher tilt and rotat
 Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:43 am Post Number: #5 Post
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So really, the original question was about getting low flare on a symmetric ball - short pin-pap to burn tilt and rotation faster for my stats?

My first ball out is a Motiv Forza GT, kept around 2000. About a XX x 4 x 60 with a balance hole 2" down Val line. This gives me a nice controlled medium strong arc to play on the fresh.

When this ball starts to leave corner pins (lefty-usually 1.5-2 games worth) I can adjust in somewhat, but it really doesn't have as much pop as it needs (with my rev rate) to play much swing. I have a higher flaring, shiny, Motiv Revolt Vengeance that usually can step in at this point and gets great recovery.

The only time this 2 ball strategy doesn't work well is when the back ends are jumping. Once the GT line is gone, the Vengeance can be jumpy and difficult to control. This is where I need a ball to play a similar line, not burn up, but also be controlled on the backend.

I was thinking maybe a weaker semi-shiny, but solid cover. My PSO thinks I should try the Beyond Ridiculous....it looks like a controlled light medium ball with the recovery I want.....but to make sure it is less ball than the GT, I was considering a lower flare layout.....what do you think? Thanks!

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PAP 4.5” up 1/2"
~60* rotation
~17* tilt
~250 RPM
~15 mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: Low flare symmetric THS layout for higher tilt and rotat
 Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:34 pm Post Number: #6 Post
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I am not a fan of the short pin Symmetrical drillings. I have found them to be very skid flip in their reaction. My experience with the short pin is with lower tilt. Thus my reluctance to recommend it.

I do not know of anyone rolling such a layout. The loww flare choice is for the longer pin to PAP. I can compare you to my anchor bowler who has 20* of tilt and he has the ability to turn it sideways when he needs to get it to turn the corner. His low flare setups are with 5" pin to PAP. He has one pin up and one pin down. The pin down covers more boards of total hook, later roll. The pin up has a shorter hook zone that he will play straigher.

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 Post subject: Re: Low flare symmetric THS layout for higher tilt and rotat
 Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 5:07 pm Post Number: #7 Post
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Ok, thanks. I will likely stick with my normal benchmark layout range (pin usually in or very close to ring finger) and let the cover and surface determine where it fits...unless you think a xx x 5 x 40 type layout might be what is needed ....

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~60* rotation
~17* tilt
~250 RPM
~15 mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: Low flare symmetric THS layout for higher tilt and rotat
 Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:05 pm Post Number: #8 Post
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I like the idea of 75-5-35.
2 reasons, 1. the 35* VAL to get the pin away from the fingers a little bit more and 2. to keep the hook zone smaller so it doesn't force you to swing the ball when you would rather play more up the boards.

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Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: Low flare symmetric THS layout for higher tilt and rotat
 Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 2:37 pm Post Number: #9 Post
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Quote:
I am not a fan of the short pin Symmetrical drillings


Hi Eric, short pin seems like a reasonable approach for high tilt high rotation. Short pin symmetrical allow burning off the excess rotation and tilt. So, the ball can get to the roll phase quicker. Seems to me the long pin symmetrical would produce skid flip instead. Please advise. Best regards.

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Revs 300 - 350 rpm
AR - 70 to 80 degrees
AT - 17 degrees
PAP - 5" over 1/2" up


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 Post subject: Re: Low flare symmetric THS layout for higher tilt and rotat
 Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 5:52 pm Post Number: #10 Post
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jsluk wrote:

Hi Eric, short pin seems like a reasonable approach for high tilt high rotation. Short pin symmetrical allow burning off the excess rotation and tilt. So, the ball can get to the roll phase quicker. Seems to me the long pin symmetrical would produce skid flip instead. Please advise. Best regards.

First off 18* of tilt of todvan and your 17* of tilt is not high tilt. It is right there in where I consider optimal. Also his rotation is on the higher side of medium, again not at the extreme like yours is.
Secondly when you have such an extreme difference between tilt and rotation and you burn tilt off to fast there will be no tilt left to equal rotation when you want the ball to be in the roll phase. So it will actually still be trying to hook and burn off rotation when it hits the pins. This is what I contributed to poor carry when I tried it.
Thirdly when you have a strong pin position, one that burns tilt and rotation quickly, it makes for a more skid flip type reaction. Especially with high rotation.

The problem here is trying to find a layout to make up for not having optimal release specs. Specifically too much rotation.
Layouts help but are not the cure. Learning to change the release to be able to adapt to changing lane conditions is a much better solution. Also the reluctance to move and play what the lanes are giving you is another issue.

Layouts are not miracle cures. They are to be used to optimize what you as a bowler do with the ball.

If you are getting skid flip reaction out of long pin to PAP Symmetrical balls try adding surface and getting the shine off the ball.

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Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: Low flare symmetric THS layout for higher tilt and rotat
 Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:45 am Post Number: #11 Post
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Eric, again thanks for your detail explanations. Best regards.

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Lanes - synthetic; light oil sharp breaking THS
14 mph off hand
Revs 300 - 350 rpm
AR - 70 to 80 degrees
AT - 17 degrees
PAP - 5" over 1/2" up


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