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 Post subject: Need help to my Guru Master
 Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 5:38 pm Post Number: #1 Post
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Drilled a Guru Master 2 weeks ago. 70*3 3/4*50 #2000 grit (pin next to ring finger).

When play in oil (around 10th board), it hydroplanes, struggles to hook, and hardly turns into roll phase. Only when I swing it to outside dry board (5-6th), it produces a smooth hooking motion. it has very small flare. Oil rings are packed within 1".

I tried the original Guru 80 * 3 3/4 * 30 #2000 grit. The ball skids long but comes back very strong. Storm Code Platinum 40 * 4 * 50 #4000 exhibits strong mid-lane and continuous back-end. Even miss in a bit, it holds and still turns at the end of the pattern, unlike the Guru Master which goes straight and barely turns. Both Guru and Code Platinum have larger flare.

I expected the Guru Master has a stronger coverstock than Guru and Code Platinum, and should read lane soon. Unfortunately, it is not what I saw.

Would the 120 angle sum be the prime suspect or the 70* drilling angle too large? Would a P3 hole help?


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Adrian
Right handed

(Sep 2018)
PAP: 5 1/8 up 3/4
Speed: 15.5 mph (Kegel Specto)
Rev: 350 RPM
Axis tilt: 18-20*
Axis rotation: 60*


(Old)
PAP: 5 5/8 up 3/4
Speed: 14 mph off hand
Rev: 300 RPM
Axis tilt: 15*
Axis rotation: 60*


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 Post subject: Re: Need help to my Guru Master
 Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 6:26 pm Post Number: #2 Post
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That is odd. The Master cover is stronger (IMO) than the original black Guru, and the cores are identical. Even playing inside that 9.5:1 flood in the center of the lane, the ball should make a strong move off the end of the pattern.

The 1" flare is also confusing. My Gurus in that layout range (~65x4x45) flare significantly, with lines 3/8" to 1/2" apart and covering 4-5".

Is this a brand new ball? Has it been de-oiled/baked/detoxed recently?
Anything unusual about the CG/MB? Was it plugged?

The 70+50 sum might be a little high for that condition, and a P3 might help, but first take the surface down to 1000, 500 and see if you can get it to read earlier...

Steve

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18-19 mph (15.5-16.5 on monitor), 375 rpm, PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8 up, AT: 12*, AR: 45*


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 Post subject: Re: Need help to my Guru Master
 Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 7:23 pm Post Number: #3 Post
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1" total flare on a ball like that with a strong pin-to-PAP doesn't make much sense to me. Even with the higher drilling angle, that's surprising.

Maybe recheck your PAP and the layout on that ball to be sure?


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 Post subject: Re: Need help to my Guru Master
 Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 9:52 pm Post Number: #4 Post
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The layout with your PAP should look like what I attached.

It is strange that you have such little flare, something is not right.


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Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: Need help to my Guru Master
 Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:42 am Post Number: #5 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:
The layout with your PAP should look like what I attached.

It is strange that you have such little flare, something is not right.


What is that that you used to show what the layout would look like?


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 Post subject: Re: Need help to my Guru Master
 Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 8:17 am Post Number: #6 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:
The layout with your PAP should look like what I attached.

It is strange that you have such little flare, something is not right.


That's what my other balls usually look like, but the first track of this ball is very close to my thumb hole unless I intentionally give more tilt to it.

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Adrian
Right handed

(Sep 2018)
PAP: 5 1/8 up 3/4
Speed: 15.5 mph (Kegel Specto)
Rev: 350 RPM
Axis tilt: 18-20*
Axis rotation: 60*


(Old)
PAP: 5 5/8 up 3/4
Speed: 14 mph off hand
Rev: 300 RPM
Axis tilt: 15*
Axis rotation: 60*


Last edited by ads on Fri Mar 30, 2018 2:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Need help to my Guru Master
 Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 8:36 am Post Number: #7 Post
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stevespo wrote:
That is odd. The Master cover is stronger (IMO) than the original black Guru, and the cores are identical. Even playing inside that 9.5:1 flood in the center of the lane, the ball should make a strong move off the end of the pattern.

The 1" flare is also confusing. My Gurus in that layout range (~65x4x45) flare significantly, with lines 3/8" to 1/2" apart and covering 4-5".

Is this a brand new ball? Has it been de-oiled/baked/detoxed recently?
Anything unusual about the CG/MB? Was it plugged?

The 70+50 sum might be a little high for that condition, and a P3 might help, but first take the surface down to 1000, 500 and see if you can get it to read earlier...

Steve


It is brand new one I bought from Buddiesproshop.com last year. What worry me is even Storm Code Platinum, with less aggressive surface, can handle this lane condition.

Will do some tests on lower grit, then P3, and last resort, go for a strong layout.

Most of my balls are 2nd hand balls from my teammate and they works very well with the desired layout. However, I don't have the same luck with my brand new balls. Out of the 3 Radical balls

1. Guru: 80 - 3 3/4 - 30, very good
2. Ridiculous Asym: 65 - 4 3/8 - 30, unpredictable back-end, after a P3, better now.
3. Guru Master: 70 - 3 3/4 - 50, struggling now

My spec ratio should 2:1 but my personal favourite is 1:1 also works well on most balls. Wonder if 2:1 is the only option for my Radical tools.

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Adrian
Right handed

(Sep 2018)
PAP: 5 1/8 up 3/4
Speed: 15.5 mph (Kegel Specto)
Rev: 350 RPM
Axis tilt: 18-20*
Axis rotation: 60*


(Old)
PAP: 5 5/8 up 3/4
Speed: 14 mph off hand
Rev: 300 RPM
Axis tilt: 15*
Axis rotation: 60*


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 Post subject: Re: Need help to my Guru Master
 Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:29 pm Post Number: #8 Post
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ads wrote:

That's what my other balls usually look like, but the first track of this ball is very close to my thumb hole unless I intentionally give more tilt to it.

If your track is closer to your grip, your tilt is not 15* as listed, it is lower. Assuming your PAP is correct.

The program I used to model the layout is the Drillsheet Database, it is an excel program that was developed by Excel4Bowling.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=9436&hilit=database

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Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: Need help to my Guru Master
 Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:53 pm Post Number: #9 Post
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ads wrote:
That's what my other balls usually look like, but the first track of this ball is very close to my thumb hole unless I intentionally give more tilt to it.


As Eric said, your tilt is at least wrong. Your PAP might be wrong as well. It's worth remeasuring on that ball.

Both of those can change with a fit change. Is this ball the same as your others?


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 Post subject: Re: Need help to my Guru Master
 Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 6:16 am Post Number: #10 Post
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The Kid wrote:

As Eric said, your tilt is at least wrong. Your PAP might be wrong as well. It's worth remeasuring on that ball.

Both of those can change with a fit change. Is this ball the same as your others?



The small flare and close to thumb hole track only appear on this ball only. I intentionally tried 2 different balls together with the Guru Master the same league night. Neither the Guru Original or Storm Code Platinum behaved the same.

The close to thumb hole track may be explained by fit (my fit on these balls are the same w/ ST.) or release hand position but the small flare is very strange. Need to try something different (grit change, balance hole, or even a new layout) to see the difference.

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Adrian
Right handed

(Sep 2018)
PAP: 5 1/8 up 3/4
Speed: 15.5 mph (Kegel Specto)
Rev: 350 RPM
Axis tilt: 18-20*
Axis rotation: 60*


(Old)
PAP: 5 5/8 up 3/4
Speed: 14 mph off hand
Rev: 300 RPM
Axis tilt: 15*
Axis rotation: 60*


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 Post subject: Re: Need help to my Guru Master
 Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 2:51 pm Post Number: #11 Post
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Locate your PAP and see if it is the same on the Guru Master as it is on your other equipment.

This would be a good one to spin up on a DeTerminator to help figure out what is going on.
The Mass Bias could have been marked incorrectly.

Where did you get the ball from?

An e-mail to Radical with the serial number from the ball would confirm that you have an authentic Radical product and not a counterfeit.

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Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: Need help to my Guru Master
 Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 4:26 pm Post Number: #12 Post
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He bought it new from buddiesproshop.com. there is zero chance it is not an authentic Guru master.


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 Post subject: Re: Need help to my Guru Master
 Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 4:50 pm Post Number: #13 Post
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gunso wrote:
He bought it new from buddiesproshop.com. there is zero chance it is not an authentic Guru master.

Somehow I missed that bit of info. I was just trying to explore all possibilities. Thank you.

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Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: Need help to my Guru Master
 Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:23 am Post Number: #14 Post
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Thank you for all your help. Will update again of all the test results including PAP measurement.

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Adrian
Right handed

(Sep 2018)
PAP: 5 1/8 up 3/4
Speed: 15.5 mph (Kegel Specto)
Rev: 350 RPM
Axis tilt: 18-20*
Axis rotation: 60*


(Old)
PAP: 5 5/8 up 3/4
Speed: 14 mph off hand
Rev: 300 RPM
Axis tilt: 15*
Axis rotation: 60*


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 Post subject: Re: Need help to my Guru Master
 Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:13 am Post Number: #15 Post
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Redrilled the ball eventually from 70-3.75-50 to 60-4.5-30.

Flare rings did separate from each other a bit (before was just next to each other and nearly overlapped) but still not as much as my black Guru with 80-3.75-30, or Ridiculous Asym with 65-4.25-35. Can't figure out why? (because my PAP is 1/2 shorter because of increased tilt?)

The down lane motion was improved noticeably. It read the lane better and was able to turn the corner smoothly.

_________________
Adrian
Right handed

(Sep 2018)
PAP: 5 1/8 up 3/4
Speed: 15.5 mph (Kegel Specto)
Rev: 350 RPM
Axis tilt: 18-20*
Axis rotation: 60*


(Old)
PAP: 5 5/8 up 3/4
Speed: 14 mph off hand
Rev: 300 RPM
Axis tilt: 15*
Axis rotation: 60*


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