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 Post subject: Most useful house shot layouts
 Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:22 pm Post Number: #1 Post
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I believe this probably has been discussed before, can’t remember where exactly... anyway the question is: What are the most useful layouts for a house shot?

Do these layouts vary depending on who you are, for example low tilt-rev dominant vs high tilt-high speed? I am low tilt rev dominant and tend to lean more towards control and low flare layouts for house shots.

If we were to set up a three ball “house shot” tournament arsenal, what three shapes would you choose?

Would you choose three different layouts and if so which ones (control, benchmark, etc?)

Would you rather use the same layout, for example in my case a control layout, in three very different balls?


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 Post subject: Re: Most useful house shot layouts
 Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 4:52 pm Post Number: #2 Post
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I think it would depend on the person throwing the ball and ball choice. But if I were setting up 3 ball THS arsenal, I would choose Benchmark, Long & Strong, and Control. I think those 3 layouts would give you the most versatility.

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PAP: 5" over and 1" up
Speed: 14.5-15.5 MPH at Monitor
Rev rate: approx. 250-300 rpm
Tilt: 13-15 degrees


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 Post subject: Re: Most useful house shot layouts
 Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:21 pm Post Number: #3 Post
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Layouts would definetly depends on ball choice and the style of the individual bowler.

I can't see a 3 ball house shot arsenal without a low flare set up in it. Control and long and strong would the shape of my 2 other choices.

I would definitely want to add a 4th ball, plastic spare ball.

I actually bring 5 to my Wed night league. The shot is so inconsistant from week to weak I have the Benchmark available too. We have had patterns ranging from 43' to 36' while they have been "tweaking" the house shot. Another variable is they put the house shot over the top of the Sport shot from Tues night. So it is far from "typical"

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PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: Most useful house shot layouts
 Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:17 pm Post Number: #4 Post
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Unpopular opinion: I’m on the side that likes limiting layout choices. It seems like that’s what you’re considering too, so I’ll give my experience.

I learned all about layouts and dual angles and tested many many balls and layouts over the years I’ve been on this site. I had a full arsenal according to the standards presented here (plus many more). I struggled to apply it. I’d waver on decision making during games (ex. I need more length than my benchmark, should I switch to an asym with long and strong layout, or should i go to a control ball with a weaker cover/surface). I guessed wrong a lot. After several years of many mental gains but 0 actual scoring improvements, I simplified.

My house shot arsenal last fall season was 3 balls (2 IQ Tour Solids and a Code Black) all with the same layout (50x5x40). One IQ Tour Solid has a weight hole down the VAL and was kept with more surface than the other. I bowled two leagues at the same house and something like 30 tournaments of various size last year. Those 3 balls were all I brought to league, but I did bring others to tournaments. I’d estimate I needed only those 3 balls on 75% of the house shots and challenge patterns I bowled. It was my most successful season on the lanes ever.

The use case for each ball was simple. The IQTS pair were both easy to get to the pocket and the low flare drill provided enough downlane shape for them to be effective in high-scoring environments. As we know, it’s not how much it hooks, but when. I essentially kept two balls that rolled exactly the same except for the length - one or the other was usually going to hook at the right part of the lane to carry the corners. When more core was needed (shape of IQ was wrong from the get go, or they stopped turning the corner as I migrated in, as examples), I switched to the Code Black.

Did it work every single time I was out on the lanes? Of course not. The large asym core in the Code Black was great for moving in with, but it would quit turning the corner at some point as well. All 3 could be prone to rolling out on high friction surfaces. And of course, the layout used wasn’t particularly good for any of these balls on tougher patterns, eapecially early in the block.

I tinkered with that set up this year to try to close those gaps. I tried introducing other covers to expand my range (IQTS and Code Black are both variations of R2S) as well as a few different layouts. With tournament season upon me, I’m mostly settled in again on a pretty simple set up:

2 smooth rolling, sanded symmetricals, 1 with a control drill and 1 with a low flare drill. (In this case, both IQTS).
2 shiny, more angular symmetricals, 1 with a control drill and 1 with a low flare drill. (Soniq has control drill, Hyroad Pearl has low flare)
Plastic

Still all R2S. Low flare IQ is my benchmark, with the control drill IQ (with more surface) serving as a benchmark for tougher conditions. The Soniq takes over as the transition ball and the Hyroad Pearl looks like it will be a winner on high friction conditions.

Other balls will come as needed, but anything outside of those are condition specific. This is my versatile 4 that I think can cover 90% of conditions I reasonably expect to see (not necessarily 90% of all possible conditions). We will see how it works.

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PAP- 4 1/8 over, 3/4 up
Speed - 17-18 monitor
Rev Rate - 475
Rotation - 65
Tilt - 12


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 Post subject: Re: Most useful house shot layouts
 Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 11:43 am Post Number: #5 Post
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[color=#FFBFFF[/color]
Bahshay wrote:
Unpopular opinion: I’m on the side that likes limiting layout choices. It seems like that’s what you’re considering too, so I’ll give my experience.

learned all about layouts and dual angles and tested many many balls and layouts over the years I’ve been on this site. I had a full arsenal according to the standards presented here (plus many more). I struggled to apply it. I’d waver on decision making during games (ex. I need more length than my benchmark, should I switch to an asym with long and strong layout, or should i go to a control ball with a weaker cover/surface). I guessed wrong a lot. After several years of many mental gains but 0 actual scoring improvements, I simplified.

........................

I tinkered with that set up this year to try to close those gaps. I tried introducing other covers to expand my range (IQTS and Code Black are both variations of R2S) as well as a few different layouts. With tournament season upon me, I’m mostly settled in again on a pretty simple set up:

2 smooth rolling, sanded symmetricals, 1 with a control drill and 1 with a low flare drill. (In this case, both IQTS).
2 shiny, more angular symmetricals, 1 with a control drill and 1 with a low flare drill. (Soniq has control drill, Hyroad Pearl has low flare)
Plastic

Still all R2S. Low flare IQ is my benchmark, with the control drill IQ (with more surface) serving as a benchmark for tougher conditions. The Soniq takes over as the transition ball and the Hyroad Pearl looks like it will be a winner on high friction conditions.

Other balls will come as needed, but anything outside of those are condition specific. This is my versatile 4 that I think can cover 90% of conditions I reasonably expect to see (not necessarily 90% of all possible conditions). We will see how it works.


Let us know how it goes...I am interested in simplifying also...

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Left Handed, Stroker, 15 lb
PAP 4.7" up 1/2"
~65* rotation
~18* tilt
250-260 RPM
14-15 mph off hand

Benchmark Layout: 45 x 4 x 45


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 Post subject: Re: Most useful house shot layouts
 Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 6:14 pm Post Number: #6 Post
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Bahshay, I have struggled with this question for quite sometime, and have gone from trying to embrace it to just having one or two favorite layouts that seem to work best for me. I could not reconcile the different layout for an associated ball versus seeing the great bowlers (Pete Weber, et. al.) using just one or two layout across their arsenal. There must be a middle ground that I was missing. Something Richard Shockley said helped me put it in perspective. At the risk of putting words in his mouth (and I do not know if he still feels the same way), I will summarize what he said as to what it meant to me. Using unique layouts on balls for different conditions/reactions only works for bowlers whose average is above 200-210 (house or challenge conditions?) because they have mastered the sport to the extent that they can take full advantage of multiple layouts. That is, these advanced bowlers have the requisite skills (consistency, accuracy, and repeatability) not present in bowlers who average in the 180+ range. For the 180+ bowler, all they need is a good benchmark layout, or layout they have discovered works for them (a basic layout?). They are probably not ready to deal with the changing feel, reactions, and etc. that trying to utilize different layouts would bring to their game. I believe Dean Champ may have made a similar point in older blog posts.


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 Post subject: Re: Most useful house shot layouts
 Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 8:26 pm Post Number: #7 Post
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Glenn wrote:
Bahshay, I have struggled with this question for quite sometime, and have gone from trying to embrace it to just having one or two favorite layouts that seem to work best for me. I could not reconcile the different layout for an associated ball versus seeing the great bowlers (Pete Weber, et. al.) using just one or two layout across their arsenal. There must be a middle ground that I was missing. Something Richard Shockley said helped me put it in perspective. At the risk of putting words in his mouth (and I do not know if he still feels the same way), I will summarize what he said as to what it meant to me. Using unique layouts on balls for different conditions/reactions only works for bowlers whose average is above 200-210 (house or challenge conditions?) because they have mastered the sport to the extent that they can take full advantage of multiple layouts. That is, these advanced bowlers have the requisite skills (consistency, accuracy, and repeatability) not present in bowlers who average in the 180+ range. For the 180+ bowler, all they need is a good benchmark layout, or layout they have discovered works for them (a basic layout?). They are probably not ready to deal with the changing feel, reactions, and etc. that trying to utilize different layouts would bring to their game. I believe Dean Champ may have made a similar point in older blog posts.



I figure that layouts change the asymmetry of the ball. What you really end up with are various degrees of asymmetry in your arsenal. Putting the same layout on 2 different balls does not give you the same layout anyway. You can put the same layout on a mildly asymmetric ball v.s. a strong ball and spin them on a DeTerminator. You do not have the same layout on these 2 balls. You could come closer with a strong balance hole on the mildly asymmetric and no hole on the strong ball. You might even get closer to the same layout if you take a strong ball and put a control layout on it and compare it to the weak ball with the strong balance hole. (if the logic is the same layout using only cover to differentiate for example). I think that the same layout is somewhat of an illusion, but probably as good of a place to start as any (you do not have to overanalize anything). When Richard Shockley says a layout you have discovered works for you, I would interprete that to mean small angles for speed dominant bowler/large angles for a slow speed bowler/lower ratios for a spinner/ etc. Generalizations that should work fine and is plenty complicated for the majority of the bowlers. Using your favorite layout (if found, because you still have to do your homework or your driller should have) is still going to give you a lot of variances especially for the 180+ bowler (because of the different spin times and coverstocks), but believing that you have achieved the same layout on all your balls is not really what I see happening anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: Most useful house shot layouts
 Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:46 am Post Number: #8 Post
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elgavachon wrote:
Using your favorite layout (if found, because you still have to do your homework or your driller should have) is still going to give you a lot of variances especially for the 180+ bowler (because of the different spin times and coverstocks), but believing that you have achieved the same layout on all your balls is not really what I see happening anyway.


What your describing is the very core of what "limited layout" bowlers believe - layouts are just numbers, balls make the difference. A "long and strong" layout doesn't make a ball long and strong, it just makes it longer and stronger than it would be with a benchmark layout.

My go to balls of IQ Tour (pin in ring), IQ Tour (5x40), and Soniq gives me the three reactions Eric described as must haves in this thread (control, low flare, and long and strong, respectively).

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PAP- 4 1/8 over, 3/4 up
Speed - 17-18 monitor
Rev Rate - 475
Rotation - 65
Tilt - 12


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