Layout Advice for Long/Heavy Patterns

Which layout is right for me?

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smcintire
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Layout Advice for Long/Heavy Patterns

Post by smcintire »

Good Day All,

Mo, I'm looking for some advice on layouts for longer and heavier oil patterns. Typically I have a hard time getting anything move on the backend when playing these types of patterns. I have low axis tilt, pretty good axis rotation, between 375-425 rpms, and about average ball speed. I am including a link to a video for reference. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for your time.

v/r

Scott

[youtube][/youtube]
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EricHartwell
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Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer
Location: Michigan

Re: Layout Advice for Long/Heavy Patterns

Post by EricHartwell »

Welcome to BowlingChat.
What kind of surface do you have on your ball?
What ball are you using?
Dull surfaces 500 to 1000 grit are usually recommended for long heavy patterns.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
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Re: Layout Advice for Long/Heavy Patterns

Post by smcintire »

usually I will have tons of surface on my equipment when I am playing these longer/heavier patterns. And typically I will have stronger balls, just depends on all the other variables.
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EricHartwell
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Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer
Location: Michigan

Re: Layout Advice for Long/Heavy Patterns

Post by EricHartwell »

You have very Low Tilt and Very high rotation. What we have coined around here as PDW territory.
The high rotation is the big issue here causing the ball to skid too long.
Pete Weber has an awesome ability to control his speed especially on the longer patterns. While you state you have average speed it is obviously too fast to match up with your layouts for long oil.

In your video your layout of 85-3.5-50 is way too high for your totals for a long oil pattern. The Ratio and totals are considered long and Strong. For long oil you want to use a Benchmark or Stronger layout.

What other layouts and balls are you using?

To accurately give you layout advice I need to know Tilt, Rotation, Speed (off the hand), and Rev Rate.
Check out this link for advice on gathering this information.

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=373" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Lower Ratios and Totals are what you need as well as lower grit surfaces for Long Heavy oil patterns.
Longer pin to PAP on Asymmetricals will also help get a stronger reaction to the friction on the backend.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
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Re: Layout Advice for Long/Heavy Patterns

Post by smcintire »

EricHartwell wrote:You have very Low Tilt and Very high rotation. What we have coined around here as PDW territory.
The high rotation is the big issue here causing the ball to skid too long.
Pete Weber has an awesome ability to control his speed especially on the longer patterns. While you state you have average speed it is obviously too fast to match up with your layouts for long oil.

In your video your layout of 85-3.5-50 is way too high for your totals for a long oil pattern. The Ratio and totals are considered long and Strong. For long oil you want to use a Benchmark or Stronger layout.

What other layouts and balls are you using?

To accurately give you layout advice I need to know Tilt, Rotation, Speed (off the hand), and Rev Rate.
Check out this link for advice on gathering this information.

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=373" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Lower Ratios and Totals are what you need as well as lower grit surfaces for Long Heavy oil patterns.
Longer pin to PAP on Asymmetricals will also help get a stronger reaction to the friction on the backend.
Thanks for your reply. Last time I measured my tilt I was about 03 degrees, I would say I'm pretty close to that, 06 degrees on the high side. axis rotation is between 60 and 80 degrees. Speed of the hand is 17 mph, rev rate is between 375 and 425. As far as layouts I Have many. Ill list the stuff I am using on a regular basis right now.

Inception DCT Pearl: 85 x 3.5 x 50 (asym pearl)
Inception DCT Pearl: 60 x 3.5 x 30 (asym pearl)
Honey Badger: 40 x 4.5 x 35 (asym pearl)
Truth: 80 x 5 x 60 (sym solid)
Truth Pearl: 60 x 4 x 25 (sym pearl)
X2: 60 x 4 x 30 (sym solid)
Covert Ops: 40 x 4 1/8 x 37 (asym solid)
Shadow Ops: 65 x 3.5 x 40 (asym urethane hybrid)
Inception Pearl: 70 x 3.75 x 30 (asym pearl)

As I said I have a lot lol. I have many more but no need to list older stuff that I'm not really using.
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EricHartwell
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Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer
Location: Michigan

Re: Layout Advice for Long/Heavy Patterns

Post by EricHartwell »

I am not sure on the coverstrengths of the Honey Badger and Covert Ops but those 2 with the layouts on them should be good for longer oil with surface.Both of which have longr pins, lower Ratio and Totals I mentioned before.

I have found dull surface on pearl balls to work very well for me.

I will work up a complete list of layouts for you in a couple of days when I can get back to my computer.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
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Re: Layout Advice for Long/Heavy Patterns

Post by smcintire »

EricHartwell wrote:I am not sure on the coverstrengths of the Honey Badger and Covert Ops but those 2 with the layouts on them should be good for longer oil with surface.Both of which have longr pins, lower Ratio and Totals I mentioned before.

I have found dull surface on pearl balls to work very well for me.

I will work up a complete list of layouts for you in a couple of days when I can get back to my computer.
That is awesome thank you. Yesterday I got to practice on the 2017 US Open Pattern (43 feet, high volume). As expected I couldn't get anything to make the corner. After three games the frustration set in and I decided to put a couple balls in the haus machine with 360 pads.

Truth Solid (sym) 80 x 5 x 60
Truth Pearl (sym) 60 x 4 x 25
Inception DCT Pearl (asym) 85 x 3.5 x 50

FINALLY i was able to get the ball to move on the lane! The Truth Pearl gave me the best look from inside as it had the most down lane motion. The Truth solid had good motion but worked better from the outside playing up the boards, and the Inception had the best look in-between the too in the track area. Seems like key for me was SURFACE! Lots and lots of surface.
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EricHartwell
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Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer
Location: Michigan

Re: Layout Advice for Long/Heavy Patterns

Post by EricHartwell »

Sweetspot totals 105*, 1.75:1 Ratio

Asymmetrical Layouts ...
Totally Strong .............. 50-4.5-35
Midlane ...................... 45-4.5-40
Benchmark ................. 65-3.75-40
Long and Strong ......... 85-3.75-40
Control ...................... 65-3.25-60
low flare .................... 85-2.25-40

Symmetrical Layouts (drilling angle to Cg)...
Totally Strong .............. Double Thumb layout
Midlane ...................... 50-4-35 bal hole 1.5" below midline on the VAL
Benchmark ................. 70-4.5-35
Long and Strong ......... 90-4.5-35 option for Motion Hole
Control ...................... 65-4.75-55 adj. to pin in ring finger
low flare .................... 85-5.25-35
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
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Re: Layout Advice for Long/Heavy Patterns

Post by river800 »

Erichartwell,

The honey badger is not stronger enough to handle heavier longer oil patterns on the fresh. I know 3 people that throw them local and the ball needs some friction as the cover is clean through the oil.

The core is barely asymmetrical before drilling. unless this ball in the list has a weight hole it has a higher drill angle than what is listed.
Stats:
Right handed
Pap is 4 3/4 x 3/8 up currently
Speed around 16.5 off hand
Tilt in the 14-16* range
Rev rate: around 325 - 350 or so
Axis rotation in the 25-70* range
I bowl on Brunswick synthetics. Ths...
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EricHartwell
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Posts: 4080
Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer
Location: Michigan

Re: Layout Advice for Long/Heavy Patterns

Post by EricHartwell »

river800 wrote:Erichartwell,

The honey badger is not stronger enough to handle heavier longer oil patterns on the fresh. I know 3 people that throw them local and the ball needs some friction as the cover is clean through the oil.

The core is barely asymmetrical before drilling. unless this ball in the list has a weight hole it has a higher drill angle than what is listed.
Thanks for the ball report.
My comment was to be more about the layouts for which smcintire was asking about.
This just goes to show you that you can have the right layout but choose the wrong ball to put it on.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
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Re: Layout Advice for Long/Heavy Patterns

Post by river800 »

EricHartwell wrote: Thanks for the ball report.
My comment was to be more about the layouts for which smcintire was asking about.
This just goes to show you that you can have the right layout but choose the wrong ball to put it on.
You are welcome.

The honey badger is a great ball when some length and backend is needed, but not on the fresh as it will create over under issues because of the clean cover.

After looking at the video in this thread, I can see why there is difficulty in getting the ball to read the midlane and actually get into a roll.

Maybe he could use something like the old morich midlane drilling?
Stats:
Right handed
Pap is 4 3/4 x 3/8 up currently
Speed around 16.5 off hand
Tilt in the 14-16* range
Rev rate: around 325 - 350 or so
Axis rotation in the 25-70* range
I bowl on Brunswick synthetics. Ths...
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Re: Layout Advice for Long/Heavy Patterns

Post by river800 »

What about using an inception dct solid?

Maybe something like 20 x 4 1/2 x 30 with a decent p3.5 hole and 500 surface?

Erichartwell, what do you think?
Stats:
Right handed
Pap is 4 3/4 x 3/8 up currently
Speed around 16.5 off hand
Tilt in the 14-16* range
Rev rate: around 325 - 350 or so
Axis rotation in the 25-70* range
I bowl on Brunswick synthetics. Ths...
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EricHartwell
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Posts: 4080
Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer
Location: Michigan

Re: Layout Advice for Long/Heavy Patterns

Post by EricHartwell »

river800 wrote:What about using an inception dct solid?

Maybe something like 20 x 4 1/2 x 30 with a decent p3.5 hole and 500 surface?

Erichartwell, what do you think?
I think the totals are too low.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
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Re: Layout Advice for Long/Heavy Patterns

Post by river800 »

EricHartwell wrote: I think the totals are too low.
Ok, well maybe 25 x 4 1/2 x 35 is 60* total, considering his higher rotation and rev rate which is making the ball hydroplane some maybe not. the ball has got to turn over from skid to hook, either small drilling angle, or more surface or a combo of both in this case.
Stats:
Right handed
Pap is 4 3/4 x 3/8 up currently
Speed around 16.5 off hand
Tilt in the 14-16* range
Rev rate: around 325 - 350 or so
Axis rotation in the 25-70* range
I bowl on Brunswick synthetics. Ths...
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Positive Axis Point: 4 ovr, 1 up
Speed: 12-18.5 mph at pin deck
Rev Rate: 360
Axis Tilt: 15
Axis Rotation: 65
Heavy Oil Ball: 15#-Incognito, Obsession Sld, Altered Reality, Astrophyx Prl
Medium Oil Ball: 16# Quantum Violet, Honey Badger Rev, Venom Shock
Light Oil Ball: 15#: StarTrak Ureth -Sky Blue
Preferred Company: Radical, Storm/Roto, Brunswk
Location: Central Florida

Re: Layout Advice for Long/Heavy Patterns

Post by rrb6699 »

interesting. what happens if you use a ball with totals way too low for a bowler? I'm experimenting with totals too high for me but never occurred to me to experiment this way.
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Posts: 4080
Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer
Location: Michigan

Re: Layout Advice for Long/Heavy Patterns

Post by EricHartwell »

rrb6699 wrote:interesting. what happens if you use a ball with totals way too low for a bowler? I'm experimenting with totals too high for me but never occurred to me to experiment this way.
The core will use all its energy while still in the pattern and have nothing left on the back end.
I have experimented with extreme low totals, The A-game needs to be altered to get them to work. Speed is a must, get slow and it will hit like a marshmallow.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
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Re: Layout Advice for Long/Heavy Patterns

Post by bfweld »

EricHartwell wrote: The core will use all its energy while still in the pattern and have nothing left on the back end.
I have experimented with extreme low totals, The A-game needs to be altered to get them to work. Speed is a must, get slow and it will hit like a marshmallow.
I'll back up Eric here and can do so from experience as a fellow low tilt/high rotation bowler...totals way lower than your target sums are not good. My benchmark total is around 105* and I have a track temper drilled at about 38x5 3/16x48 and it is not very useable for me...hits soft just like Eric said, even if I keep it in the oil, it still isn't that useable as the core has already used up too much energy to be able to come back to the pocket hard enough for a strike a good share of the time...too tight/shallow of a line for it or it runs out of steam when trying to open up the lane.
PAP 5x1 1/8
15.5mph off hand
260-270rev rate
7* tilt
70* rotation
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THS Average: 235
Sport Average: 211
Positive Axis Point: 4 ovr, 1 up
Speed: 12-18.5 mph at pin deck
Rev Rate: 360
Axis Tilt: 15
Axis Rotation: 65
Heavy Oil Ball: 15#-Incognito, Obsession Sld, Altered Reality, Astrophyx Prl
Medium Oil Ball: 16# Quantum Violet, Honey Badger Rev, Venom Shock
Light Oil Ball: 15#: StarTrak Ureth -Sky Blue
Preferred Company: Radical, Storm/Roto, Brunswk
Location: Central Florida

Re: Layout Advice for Long/Heavy Patterns

Post by rrb6699 »

understand. the Alpha Crux I throw in the videos in this thread is the product of hating every storm ball I threw. I won it in a tournament, so, decided to try the 40 x 3 3/8 x 60 layout and for me that ball hits with some nice power. now, even moreso with the new turbo power lift inserts. I didn't like those either but, these are the first ones that fit me. I remember the guy didn't have my actual size only larger, so, I went with them. they were holding me back I now know.
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Re: Layout Advice for Long/Heavy Patterns

Post by river800 »

bfweld wrote: I'll back up Eric here and can do so from experience as a fellow low tilt/high rotation bowler...totals way lower than your target sums are not good. My benchmark total is around 105* and I have a track temper drilled at about 38x5 3/16x48 and it is not very useable for me...hits soft just like Eric said, even if I keep it in the oil, it still isn't that useable as the core has already used up too much energy to be able to come back to the pocket hard enough for a strike a good share of the time...too tight/shallow of a line for it or it runs out of steam when trying to open up the lane.
The thing is though, you have a really long pin to pap, which isn't helping on that track temper.

5" - 5 1/2" pin to pap on any decently strong asymm is going to hit weak on the backend on anything less than fresh medium/longer sport and a decent volume for medium tilt. But, we don't use something that long of pin to pap on a low tilt bowler anyway as Mo Pinel has explained many times. I am going to say that the totals aren't "that" low, it is the pin to pap that is the problem on your one ball. Add to the fact that a layout like that isn't for opening up the lane anyway.

2 layouts, 2 different motions
1. hook then roll forward sooner 40 x 4 1/4 x 30 p3.5 hole on fresh
2. some midlane read with more overall hook 50 x 3 3/4 x 35 when broken down some

I just saw this, but your 38 x 5 3/16 x 48 has a 86* total only 20* less than your benchmark total...
Stats:
Right handed
Pap is 4 3/4 x 3/8 up currently
Speed around 16.5 off hand
Tilt in the 14-16* range
Rev rate: around 325 - 350 or so
Axis rotation in the 25-70* range
I bowl on Brunswick synthetics. Ths...
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Re: Layout Advice for Long/Heavy Patterns

Post by bfweld »

river800 wrote:
The thing is though, you have a really long pin to pap, which isn't helping on that track temper.

Have you ever tried a 40 x 4 1/2 x 40 80* total p3.5 hole on a true asymmetrical like a guru or along that lines?

5" - 5 1/2" pin to pap on any decently strong asymm is going to hit weak on the backend on anything less than fresh medium/longer sport and a decent volume for medium tilt. But, we don't use something that long of pin to pap on a low tilt bowler anyway as Mo Pinel has explained many times. I am going to say that the totals aren't "that" low, it is the pin to pap that is the problem on your one ball. Add to the fact that a layout like that isn't for opening up the lane anyway.

2 layouts, 2 different motions
1. hook then roll forward sooner 40 x 4 1/4 x 30 p3.5 hole
2. some midlane read with more overall hook 50 x 3 3/4 x 35

I just saw this, but your 38 x 5 3/16 x 48 has a 86* total only 20* less than your benchmark total...
I'm aware of the issues with long pin-paps on asyms for low tilt bowlers...and the temper can hardly be considered an asym at 0.003 intermediate diff. It's a ball with a quick reaction to friction...so any attempt to use it anywhere but inside/out trying to open up the lane a bit results in too early and too strong of a reaction and it goes Brooklyn. That layout on that ball shows the importance of choosing the correct ball for a layout.

Those layouts you mentioned are heavy oil midlane/totally strong type layouts for me, and any low tilt and rev dominant bowler is going to have limited use for layouts like that unless they consistently see very long and heavy oil patterns.
PAP 5x1 1/8
15.5mph off hand
260-270rev rate
7* tilt
70* rotation
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