Board index » Mo & Friends » Ball & Layout Advice




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Benchmarks - How do they work?
 Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:24 pm Post Number: #1 Post
Offline
Member

Joined: September 27, 2017
Posts: 55
Reputation: 0
Reputation Power: 1
Good afternoon everyone, I hope you all having a great Football Sunday!!!

I'm hoping someone will take the time to help me understand something. First I want to say I've been reading the Wiki section and doing the University because I want to learn more about the Sport. i am passionate about this sport which I had to take a break from 21 years ago (Army Service - deployments - didn't schedule with Leagues - lol).

I'm trying to figure out how the Asym Benchmark thing works - I was told I'm an 80. How was that number obtained? How is it used? I'm assuming its for layouts (Dual angle) - If the Dual Angle is a 50 x 5 x 30 what is the 50 and what is the 30 (other than degrees - I mean - what is the actual REAL on lane results of these numbers? How can this benchmark be used to figure out a benchmark for Symetrical dual angles? What should I take into account when laying out a ball for a specific pattern - say the New 44' Carmen Salvino Pattern or something like that where not much information is known?

I'm really trying to learn as much as possible. If anyone would like to Mentor someone please let me know. I am dying to learn more!!!!!

_________________
Speed 17.5 off-hand
Rev 275
Tilt 17*
Rot 75*
PAP 4 over 1 3/8 up

Cash, More Cash, Katana x2, Fix, Quick Fix, Intel, Beyond Ridiculous, Tremendous Pearl, Guru Limited, Cyclops Pearl, True Motion & Radical Spare (Waiting to ship - Katana Slash)



Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Benchmarks - How do they work?
 Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:17 pm Post Number: #2 Post
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: April 26, 2007
Posts: 4277
Location: Malta, NY
Reputation: 940
Reputation Power: 10
Much reading to do.

http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/images ... _Guide.pdf

_________________
Please press the Image button if you feel I've been helpful.

“When you prepare for everything, you’re ready for anything.” - Bill Walsh


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Benchmarks - How do they work?
 Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:35 pm Post Number: #3 Post
Online
BCU Graduate Layouts
User avatar

Joined: April 4, 2011
Posts: 3213
Location: Michigan
Reputation: 275
Reputation Power: 3
Jmc1972 wrote:
Good afternoon everyone, I hope you all having a great Football Sunday!!!

I'm hoping someone will take the time to help me understand something. First I want to say I've been reading the Wiki section and doing the University because I want to learn more about the Sport. i am passionate about this sport which I had to take a break from 21 years ago (Army Service - deployments - didn't schedule with Leagues - lol).

I'm trying to figure out how the Asym Benchmark thing works - I was told I'm an 80. How was that number obtained? How is it used? I'm assuming its for layouts (Dual angle) - If the Dual Angle is a 50 x 5 x 30 what is the 50 and what is the 30 (other than degrees - I mean - what is the actual REAL on lane results of these numbers? How can this benchmark be used to figure out a benchmark for Symetrical dual angles? What should I take into account when laying out a ball for a specific pattern - say the New 44' Carmen Salvino Pattern or something like that where not much information is known?

I'm really trying to learn as much as possible. If anyone would like to Mentor someone please let me know. I am dying to learn more!!!!!

You have come to the right place. There are many people here that will assist in your mentoring.

Your Benchmark total of 80* is based on your speed to rev relationship with your tilt and rotation factoring in. It means (if it is correct) that you are speed dominant.

50-5-30 example is a 50* Drilling angle which is the skid zone, the 5 is the pin to PAP distance and the 30 is the VAL angle, the length of the hook zone.
50:30 equates to a Ratio 1.67:1
The Ratio is based on the Dual Angle Ratio Guide ...

http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... atio_Guide

_________________
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Benchmarks - How do they work?
 Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:35 am Post Number: #4 Post
Offline
Member

Joined: September 27, 2017
Posts: 55
Reputation: 0
Reputation Power: 1
EricHartwell wrote:
You have come to the right place. There are many people here that will assist in your mentoring.

Your Benchmark total of 80* is based on your speed to rev relationship with your tilt and rotation factoring in. It means (if it is correct) that you are speed dominant.

50-5-30 example is a 50* Drilling angle which is the skid zone, the 5 is the pin to PAP distance and the 30 is the VAL angle, the length of the hook zone.
50:30 equates to a Ratio 1.67:1
The Ratio is based on the Dual Angle Ratio Guide ...

http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... atio_Guide


Thank you for the help! So to make sure I’m understanding Inc this I’d like to go a bit slow. I’ve gone to the link and using the chart based on my stats below:

17.3mph
275 rev rate
Axis Rotation 75*
Axis Tilt 17*

If I’m reading the chart correctly I come up with a ratio of 1.5:1. Is this correct?

Also, based on the info given of 100* being the sweet spot, is the sweet spot lowered due to speed dominance or conversely increased to say 120 for rev dominants?

_________________
Speed 17.5 off-hand
Rev 275
Tilt 17*
Rot 75*
PAP 4 over 1 3/8 up

Cash, More Cash, Katana x2, Fix, Quick Fix, Intel, Beyond Ridiculous, Tremendous Pearl, Guru Limited, Cyclops Pearl, True Motion & Radical Spare (Waiting to ship - Katana Slash)



Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Benchmarks - How do they work?
 Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:54 am Post Number: #5 Post
Online
BCU Graduate Layouts
User avatar

Joined: April 4, 2011
Posts: 3213
Location: Michigan
Reputation: 275
Reputation Power: 3
Jmc1972 wrote:

Thank you for the help! So to make sure I’m understanding Inc this I’d like to go a bit slow. I’ve gone to the link and using the chart based on my stats below:

17.3mph
275 rev rate
Axis Rotation 75*
Axis Tilt 17*

If I’m reading the chart correctly I come up with a ratio of 1.5:1. Is this correct?

Also, based on the info given of 100* being the sweet spot, is the sweet spot lowered due to speed dominance or conversely increased to say 120 for rev dominants?

Yes the totals are lowered for speed dominance and raised for rev dominance.

Just to clarify things the speed should be off the hand, not from the scoring monitors or timed from release to the pins. If someone told you 80* is your Sweetspot I'm thinking that the speed is from the scoring monitor.

For this example I will assume the speed is off the hand.
Speed to revs 17.3 mph and 275 rpm is very close to matched, only slightly speed dominant and not enough to adjust for.
With 75* of rotation (considered high rotation) this amplifies the speed dominance. Subtracting 5* from the totals.
The base for Matched is 95*. Subtracting 5* for high rotation the Benchmark total is 90*.

Ratio according to the Dual Angle Ratio Guide would be 1:1
The 1.5:1 ratio you listed would be for 17* tilt and Low rotation

_________________
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Benchmarks - How do they work?
 Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:32 am Post Number: #6 Post
Offline
Member

Joined: September 27, 2017
Posts: 55
Reputation: 0
Reputation Power: 1
EricHartwell wrote:
Yes the totals are lowered for speed dominance and raised for rev dominance.

Just to clarify things the speed should be off the hand, not from the scoring monitors or timed from release to the pins. If someone told you 80* is your Sweetspot I'm thinking that the speed is from the scoring monitor.

For this example I will assume the speed is off the hand.
Speed to revs 17.3 mph and 275 rpm is very close to matched, only slightly speed dominant and not enough to adjust for.
With 75* of rotation (considered high rotation) this amplifies the speed dominance. Subtracting 5* from the totals.
The base for Matched is 95*. Subtracting 5* for high rotation the Benchmark total is 90*.

Ratio according to the Dual Angle Ratio Guide would be 1:1
The 1.5:1 ratio you listed would be for 17* tilt and Low rotation


Hummm..

Lol I wish I could say this made sense....I guess it does a little. My speed was taken by my coach by stopwatch and is off the hand.

So assuming I pull the proper ratio from the chart the area that gets most confusing is figuring out the layout ratios. For example - for someone who’s matched what would the Long and Strong calculation be?

110* Total Sums @ what Ratio? How would this apratio be calculated? Assuming it’s based on the benchmark would it be 1:1........

Or .....I may have just had a holy crap moment......is it based on a bowlers ability and range of changing Tilt or rev rate (ball speed) which changes their ratio and gives them more options?

_________________
Speed 17.5 off-hand
Rev 275
Tilt 17*
Rot 75*
PAP 4 over 1 3/8 up

Cash, More Cash, Katana x2, Fix, Quick Fix, Intel, Beyond Ridiculous, Tremendous Pearl, Guru Limited, Cyclops Pearl, True Motion & Radical Spare (Waiting to ship - Katana Slash)



Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Benchmarks - How do they work?
 Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:01 am Post Number: #7 Post
Online
BCU Graduate Layouts
User avatar

Joined: April 4, 2011
Posts: 3213
Location: Michigan
Reputation: 275
Reputation Power: 3
Jmc1972 wrote:

Hummm..

Lol I wish I could say this made sense....I guess it does a little. My speed was taken by my coach by stopwatch and is off the hand.

So assuming I pull the proper ratio from the chart the area that gets most confusing is figuring out the layout ratios. For example - for someone who’s matched what would the Long and Strong calculation be?

110* Total Sums @ what Ratio? How would this apratio be calculated? Assuming it’s based on the benchmark would it be 1:1........

Or .....I may have just had a holy crap moment......is it based on a bowlers ability and range of changing Tilt or rev rate (ball speed) which changes their ratio and gives them more options?

The Benchmark is the A game and for many bowlers its their only game not having the ability to change their release much.

Example for Sweetspot of 1:1 Ratio for the Basic arsenal.

Totally Strong ..........1.5:1 Ratio 70* total .......42-4.5-28
Midlane .................. 1:1.5 Ratio 70* total ...... 28-4-42
Benchmark ............... 1:1 ratio 90* total ........ 45-4-45
Long and Strong ...... 1.5:1 Ratio 110* total .... 65-4-45
Control ................... 1:1.5 Ratio 110* total .... 45-3.5-65

There are examples for this at the bottom of the page for the Dual Angle Ratio Guide

http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... atio_Guide

_________________
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Benchmarks - How do they work?
 Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 5:12 am Post Number: #8 Post
Offline
Member

Joined: September 27, 2017
Posts: 55
Reputation: 0
Reputation Power: 1
EricHartwell wrote:
The Benchmark is the A game and for many bowlers its their only game not having the ability to change their release much.

Example for Sweetspot of 1:1 Ratio for the Basic arsenal.



Totally Strong ..........1.5:1 Ratio 70* total .......42-4.5-28
Midlane .................. 1:1.5 Ratio 70* total ...... 28-4-42
Benchmark ............... 1:1 ratio 90* total ........ 45-4-45
Long and Strong ...... 1.5:1 Ratio 110* total .... 65-4-45
Control ................... 1:1.5 Ratio 110* total .... 45-3.5-65

There are examples for this at the bottom of the page for the Dual Angle Ratio Guide

http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... atio_Guide


I have so much to learn lol. I’m really hoping to work in a pro shop some day and honestly, at this point, it’s going to have to be when I make enough to retire and volunteer my time or maybe the wife and I open a pro shop and hopefully pay people to run it for us while I learn.

This is a true passion. I wish there was a College for this. I’d enroll immediately!

That info didn’t even take into account ball info!!!!!!

Than there’s the added Distance to pin question....why were those particular distances chosen? I’m assuming there’s a rhyme ann reason. As for the 110* - will this skid longer before going into the roll? I hope so - if that answer is yes then I think I got that part down.

_________________
Speed 17.5 off-hand
Rev 275
Tilt 17*
Rot 75*
PAP 4 over 1 3/8 up

Cash, More Cash, Katana x2, Fix, Quick Fix, Intel, Beyond Ridiculous, Tremendous Pearl, Guru Limited, Cyclops Pearl, True Motion & Radical Spare (Waiting to ship - Katana Slash)



Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Benchmarks - How do they work?
 Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:20 am Post Number: #9 Post
Online
BCU Graduate Layouts
User avatar

Joined: April 4, 2011
Posts: 3213
Location: Michigan
Reputation: 275
Reputation Power: 3
Jmc1972 wrote:

I have so much to learn lol. I’m really hoping to work in a pro shop some day and honestly, at this point, it’s going to have to be when I make enough to retire and volunteer my time or maybe the wife and I open a pro shop and hopefully pay people to run it for us while I learn.

This is a true passion. I wish there was a College for this. I’d enroll immediately!

That info didn’t even take into account ball info!!!!!!

Than there’s the added Distance to pin question....why were those particular distances chosen? I’m assuming there’s a rhyme ann reason. As for the 110* - will this skid longer before going into the roll? I hope so - if that answer is yes then I think I got that part down.

The Pin to PAP chosen for the example was a very basic attempt at showing the longer pin to PAP for Asymmetrical ball is Stronger and the shorter is more controllable. 4" is the max flare position and in the middle when determining it. Longer pin to PAP for Higher tilt bowlers, shorter pin to PAP for low tilt bowlers.

The larger the totals the later the roll will be so yes 110* total will roll later than 90* totals.

_________________
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Benchmarks - How do they work?
 Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:53 pm Post Number: #10 Post
Offline
Member

Joined: September 27, 2017
Posts: 55
Reputation: 0
Reputation Power: 1
Jmc1972 wrote:

I have so much to learn lol. I’m really hoping to work in a pro shop some day and honestly, at this point, it’s going to have to be when I make enough to retire and volunteer my time or maybe the wife and I open a pro shop and hopefully pay people to run it for us while I learn.

This is a true passion. I wish there was a College for this. I’d enroll immediately!

That info didn’t even take into account ball info!!!!!!

Than there’s the added Distance to pin question....why were those particular distances chosen? I’m assuming there’s a rhyme ann reason. As for the 110* - will this skid longer before going into the roll? I hope so - if that answer is yes then I think I got that part down.
EricHartwell wrote:
The Pin to PAP chosen for the example was a very basic attempt at showing the longer pin to PAP for Asymmetrical ball is Stronger and the shorter is more controllable. 4" is the max flare position and in the middle when determining it. Longer pin to PAP for Higher tilt bowlers, shorter pin to PAP for low tilt bowlers.

The larger the totals the later the roll will be so yes 110* total will roll later than 90* totals.


Ok, so time for a Semi-real-world test....it becomes real world after we talk about this study and layout I came up with.

I went back and re-read several of the wiki docs and very close attention to the ball speed chart, sweet spot chart and Dual Ratio Guide (REALLY close attention to this one).

From what I gathered based on my stats since I am right at the #2 and slightly speed dominant I’m not going to make an adjustment and have a sweet spot here of 95*, however I do have a slightly high axis Rotation of 75* so I’m subtracting 5*. Sweet spot is 90*. This gives my me a benchmark to work with for an Arsenal.

The ball im working with is the Radical Limited - just ordered. (I’m replacing a Code Platinum and Code Black which are my down the 5 board break to the pocket every time, get out trouble, feel good balls lol)

Asym with offset and scoop (no idea what the offset is)

RG MIN 2.501
RG-INT .018
RGDIFF .044

Pin to PAP 4 over 1 3/8” Up
17.3 MPH off hand
275 rev rate

Looking for a ball that will read the midland in the middle to late, make a hard, sharp move to the pocket - almost skid-flip. It starts to rev up off the hand, continues revving uu in the skid, loses just a bit of energy, flips and tracks with solid continuation ending behind the 5 pin.

(If could bring back a plate of Hotwings through the ball return well that would be great also Lmao)

3 Layout options
All are +20 for 110* Sweetspot

#1 - Retaining Axis Rotation & Axis Tilt (increase skid, reduce flare)
2:1 Ratio
75* x 4.5 x 25

#2
50* x 4.5 x 60*

45* x 4.5 x 65* - the lower drill angle accounts for the higher Tilt rotation which may work better for

my 4.5 Pin to PAP if I read correct is the most Angular into the pocket. I’m looking for absolute most angular I can get to all myself the ability to open up angles when I move left. I’m not the best at doing this and it’s something im working on. The highest angularity is my security blanket, if you will, that helps me trust that the ball will help me if I need it.

Of course none of these account for the ball numbers.

This is on the (+20). I do have a ball spinner and lots of Abralon and love changing surfaces. This is my first stab at a Layout.

_________________
Speed 17.5 off-hand
Rev 275
Tilt 17*
Rot 75*
PAP 4 over 1 3/8 up

Cash, More Cash, Katana x2, Fix, Quick Fix, Intel, Beyond Ridiculous, Tremendous Pearl, Guru Limited, Cyclops Pearl, True Motion & Radical Spare (Waiting to ship - Katana Slash)



Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Benchmarks - How do they work?
 Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:04 pm Post Number: #11 Post
Online
BCU Graduate Layouts
User avatar

Joined: April 4, 2011
Posts: 3213
Location: Michigan
Reputation: 275
Reputation Power: 3
Jmc1972 wrote:
Looking for a ball that will read the midland in the middle to late, make a hard, sharp move to the pocket - almost skid-flip. It starts to rev up off the hand, continues revving uu in the skid, loses just a bit of energy, flips and tracks with solid continuation ending behind the 5 pin.

You are asking for too much.
First you ask your midlane, then you want that reaction to be middle to late. Next you want something almost skid/flip but you want it to rev up off the hand and want it to still have energy and continuation on the back end.
To get what you want you need to drill up 3 or 4 balls.

I suggest you start with a Benchmark and make adjustments from there.

You said you are working with the Radical Limited, is it the Guru Limited?

_________________
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Benchmarks - How do they work?
 Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:36 am Post Number: #12 Post
Offline
Member

Joined: September 27, 2017
Posts: 55
Reputation: 0
Reputation Power: 1
EricHartwell wrote:
You are asking for too much.
First you ask your midlane, then you want that reaction to be middle to late. Next you want something almost skid/flip but you want it to rev up off the hand and want it to still have energy and continuation on the back end.
To get what you want you need to drill up 3 or 4 balls.

I suggest you start with a Benchmark and make adjustments from there.

You said you are working with the Radical Limited, is it the Guru Limited?


That’s why I posted the different layouts. I realized they are all completely different. The ball is the Guru Limited.

So the first number gives me the length, the closer the drill angle the sooner it gets into the roll, the sooner it reads the midlane. The VAL is when the ball comes out of the hook and into the roll, the smaller the number, the shorter the time it has to react?

Maybe I’m just not getting it. My PSO said he’d sit diwn with me over breakfast next week and help me understand it better.

Thanks!!!!

_________________
Speed 17.5 off-hand
Rev 275
Tilt 17*
Rot 75*
PAP 4 over 1 3/8 up

Cash, More Cash, Katana x2, Fix, Quick Fix, Intel, Beyond Ridiculous, Tremendous Pearl, Guru Limited, Cyclops Pearl, True Motion & Radical Spare (Waiting to ship - Katana Slash)



Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
 
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ] 

Board index » Mo & Friends » Ball & Layout Advice


 
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: