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 Post subject: Switching from Storm/Rotogrip to Radical - Assistance needed
 Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 2:15 pm Post Number: #1 Post
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Good Morning Everyone,

I posted yesterday and took it down because I wasn't happy with my post. I am in need of your help. I've been in touch with Mo' and have been waiting patiently as i'm sure he is extremely busy.

I have been using mainly Storm/Rotogrip for the past year or so (just came back to the sport after a 21 year hiatus - Military Service). I would like to switch completely over to Radical after reading and hearing nothing but incredible things about the gear and in-fact was able to demo a couple balls last week and loved the Katana and Tremendous Pearl so much that I bought them (still undrilled).

I bowl Sport and THS and currently have a ridiculous Arsenal of 23 balls (its idiotic - I know - all are 2016 and 2017 balls!!!!). I am selling them off slowly. As it stands now I currently have NIB undrilled Radical Katana, Radical Tremendous Pearl, and Radical The Fix. I don't have any Lay-outs for these. I would really like to limit an Arsenal down to no more than 9 + Spare if possible. - Short, Medium, Long Sport Patterns, THS, Spare.

All of my numbers below were obtained by a USBC Gold Coach who I've been working with over the past 8 months.

PAP - 4 Over 1 3/8 Up
Rev Rate - 275
Speed - 17.3 MPH
Axis Rotation - 75 Degrees
Axis Tilt - 17 Degrees

A member helped me with a layout on a DD Trick a little while back and showed that I was Speed Dominant due to my high rotation and put my Asymmetrical Benchmark totals at 85*. I don't know what my Symetrical Benchmark would be.

What would be a good arsenal? What layouts should I have?

I already have the:

Katana
Fix
Tremendous Pearl



Your Help is Truly Appreciated!!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Switching from Storm/Rotogrip to Radical - Assistance ne
 Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 3:21 pm Post Number: #2 Post
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Jmc1972 wrote:
PAP - 4 Over 1 3/8 Up
Rev Rate - 275
Speed - 17.3 MPH
Axis Rotation - 75 Degrees
Axis Tilt - 17 Degrees


Is the speed measured on the monitor or another tool?
Monitor, I'd put you at 80 maybe a little less.
These layouts are a little different because pattern lengths and amount of friction on each vary.
I dont know the specs on the undrilled balls and where the CG is lined up on the asyms.

Radical Katana - 30 x 5 x 45 (Hook, tip and roll. Hook set type of look for the fresh, should be good on longer patterns)
Radical Tremendous Pearl - 50 x 3.5 x 50 (Smoother reacting asym layout, good on shorter patterns)
Radical The Fix - 70 x 4 x 50 (Good ball for medium length conditions)
Radical Cyclops Pearl - 70 x 4 1/8 x 60 (Good for getting in the middle of the lane when necessary, closer to the pocket on mediums 37-40 ft)
Radical Cash - 15 x 4.75 x 30 (The old MoRich midlane hook layout, this is the big ball when you need something to hook when nothing else does, you can see the reaction on this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEbrMHhNrQg).
Radical Mo & Phil Spare - A must on sport conditions, dont hook at your spares!

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 Post subject: Re: Switching from Storm/Rotogrip to Radical - Assistance ne
 Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 3:35 pm Post Number: #3 Post
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MegaMav wrote:

Is the speed measured on the monitor or another tool?
Monitor, I'd put you at 80 maybe a little less.
These layouts are a little different because pattern lengths and amount of friction on each vary.
I dont know the specs on the undrilled balls and where the CG is lined up on the asyms.

Radical Katana - 30 x 5 x 45 (Hook, tip and roll. Hook set type of look for the fresh, should be good on longer patterns)
Radical Tremendous Pearl - 50 x 3.5 x 50 (Smoother reacting asym layout, good on shorter patterns)
Radical The Fix - 70 x 4 x 50 (Good ball for medium length conditions)
Radical Cyclops Pearl - 70 x 4 1/8 x 60 (Good for getting in the middle of the lane when necessary, closer to the pocket on mediums 37-40 ft)
Radical Cash - 15 x 4.75 x 30 (The old MoRich midlane hook layout, this is the big ball when you need something to hook when nothing else does, you can see the reaction on this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEbrMHhNrQg).
Radical Mo & Phil Spare - A must on sport conditions, dont hook at your spares!


Thank you!

I didn’t think to get the undrilled specs. I’ll get that info and post it. Right now the balls are at the shop so I don’t have lug them up and down 3 flights of stairs.

As for ball speed. The measurement was taken using a stopwatch. It was timed three times, averaged and cross-referenced on a speed chart.

The only ball that surprised me is the Cash. I thought I’d see the More Cash. Is the cash a better ball? I’m headed to watch the video now.

Thanks again!!!!!!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Switching from Storm/Rotogrip to Radical - Assistance ne
 Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 3:42 pm Post Number: #4 Post
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Jmc1972 wrote:
The only ball that surprised me is the Cash. I thought I’d see the More Cash. Is the cash a better ball? I’m headed to watch the video now.


Subtle differences. I'd prefer the slightly earlier hook of the Cash on sport.
Splitting hairs IMO.
Its a cover tweak to get it thru the front more with the More Cash, your speed and tilt/rotation already does that for you.
If its an average, we're safe with the selected layouts. As long as its not monitor speed after the ball slows down.

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 Post subject: Re: Switching from Storm/Rotogrip to Radical - Assistance ne
 Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:22 pm Post Number: #5 Post
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MegaMav wrote:

Subtle differences. I'd prefer the slightly earlier hook of the Cash on sport.
Splitting hairs IMO.
Its a cover tweak to get it thru the front more with the More Cash, your speed and tilt/rotation already does that for you.
If its an average, we're safe with the selected layouts. As long as its not monitor speed after the ball slows down.


That makes sense. I’m working on getting the undrilled ball specs. The Katana and Tremendous Pearl are at one shop while the Fix is at another. I’ll likely have the Katana and Tremendous a little later and will post.

I’ve been checking out the balance hole chart. Is the hole location always based on the bowler type? I’m trying to remember - I think my Daredevil Trick was placed 2” on the VAL. I’m not certain why but I do like the ball motion.


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 Post subject: Re: Switching from Storm/Rotogrip to Radical - Assistance ne
 Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:53 pm Post Number: #6 Post
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The start and end points for gradient line balance holes are PSA and PAP.
PAP is based on the bowler, PSA is based on the drilled ball.
2" down the VAL is usually reserved for symmetrical balls to alter the drill angle.

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 Post subject: Re: Switching from Storm/Rotogrip to Radical - Assistance ne
 Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:20 am Post Number: #7 Post
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MegaMav wrote:

Is the speed measured on the monitor or another tool?
Monitor, I'd put you at 80 maybe a little less.
These layouts are a little different because pattern lengths and amount of friction on each vary.
I dont know the specs on the undrilled balls and where the CG is lined up on the asyms.

Radical Katana - 30 x 5 x 45 (Hook, tip and roll. Hook set type of look for the fresh, should be good on longer patterns)
Radical Tremendous Pearl - 50 x 3.5 x 50 (Smoother reacting asym layout, good on shorter patterns)
Radical The Fix - 70 x 4 x 50 (Good ball for medium length conditions)
Radical Cyclops Pearl - 70 x 4 1/8 x 60 (Good for getting in the middle of the lane when necessary, closer to the pocket on mediums 37-40 ft)
Radical Cash - 15 x 4.75 x 30 (The old MoRich midlane hook layout, this is the big ball when you need something to hook when nothing else does, you can see the reaction on this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEbrMHhNrQg).
Radical Mo & Phil Spare - A must on sport conditions, dont hook at your spares!


Hi MegaMav,

The Specs on the labels show:

KATANA:

Top 2.4oz
Pin 3-4”
RG-Min 2.506
RG-Diff .050
INT-Diff 0.020

Tremendous Pearl:

Top 3.8oz
pin 3-4”
RG-Min 2.501
RG-Diff 0.044
INT-Diff 0.018

I’m still waiting on the info from the guy I’m getting the fix from.

Based on the numbers above and the layouts you’ve given me do the need weight holes? If so, where?

Also, is the layout for the fix an Pin-up asymmetrical or Pin-down symmetrical layout?

Thank you for everything!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Switching from Storm/Rotogrip to Radical - Assistance ne
 Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:31 am Post Number: #8 Post
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Should be fine, it more depends upon where the CG is in relation to the Pin and PSA.
Fix should be Pin Up with your high PAP.

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 Post subject: Re: Switching from Storm/Rotogrip to Radical - Assistance ne
 Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:53 am Post Number: #9 Post
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MegaMav wrote:
Should be fine, it more depends upon where the CG is in relation to the Pin and PSA.
Fix should be Pin Up with your high PAP.


Thank you! I’m getting a picture of the box info sent tomorrow on the Fix and will post it. I can’t tell you how much I appreciate everything!


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 Post subject: Re: Switching from Storm/Rotogrip to Radical - Assistance ne
 Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:05 pm Post Number: #10 Post
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MegaMav wrote:
Should be fine, it more depends upon where the CG is in relation to the Pin and PSA.
Fix should be Pin Up with your high PAP.


Hi MegaMav,

I’ve been reading very intently in the wiki section - in fact, I’ve read it several times and I think, rather, I hope some things are beginning to stick. Would you mind doing me a favor and taking a look the info I put together below and giving me your thoughts? I bought a Guru Limited to replace my Code Platinum (my all time favorite ball) and I really would like to try my hand at designing the layout but at the same time I don’t want to ruin the ball and I’m not familiar enough with the core, don’t know what the offset, scoop core is, nor what the cover stock is. Also, I’m not familiar with the Motion hole system. Lastly I may need to make adjustments to layouts you helped me with that were based on the benchmark I gave you. Apparently the gentleman who said I was an 80 had it incorrect. Based on what I’ve studied I’m more of a 90 Asym Bemchmark. Now to figure out the Sym Benchmark.

I have another guy helping me also, better to have 2 people than one. Eric Hartwell is helping in another post. This stuff is difficult.


Here’s what I’ve come up with.

Ok, so time for a Semi-real-world test....it becomes real world after we talk about this study and layout I came up with.

I went back and re-read several of the wiki docs and very close attention to the ball speed chart, sweet spot chart and Dual Ratio Guide (REALLY close attention to this one).

From what I gathered based on my stats since I am right at the #2 and slightly speed dominant I’m not going to make an adjustment and have a sweet spot here of 95*, however I do have a slightly high axis Rotation of 75* so I’m subtracting 5*. Sweet spot is 90*. This gives my me a benchmark to work with for an Arsenal.

The ball im working with is the Radical Limited - just ordered. (I’m replacing a Code Platinum and Code Black which are my down the 5 board break to the pocket every time, get out trouble, feel good balls lol)

Asym with offset and scoop (no idea what the offset is)

RG MIN 2.501
RG-INT .018
RGDIFF .044

Pin to PAP 4 over 1 3/8” Up
17.3 MPH off hand
275 rev rate

Looking for a ball that will read the midland in the middle to late, make a hard, sharp move to the pocket - almost skid-flip. It starts to rev up off the hand, continues revving uu in the skid, loses just a bit of energy, flips and tracks with solid continuation ending behind the 5 pin.

(If could bring back a plate of Hotwings through the ball return well that would be great also Lmao)

3 Layout options
All are +20 for 110* Sweetspot

#1 - Retaining Axis Rotation & Axis Tilt (increase skid, reduce flare)
2:1 Ratio
75* x 4.5 x 25

#2
50* x 4.5 x 60* P4 motion hole (guessing on the hole part)

#3

45* x 4.5 x 65* P4 - the lower drill angle accounts for the higher Tilt rotation which may work better for

my 4.5 Pin to PAP which is a High Flare Pin to Pap which I’m thinking may help to increase the skid to allow the mid/late midland read.

Of course none of these account for the ball numbers.

This is on the (+20). I do have a ball spinner and lots of Abralon and love changing surfaces. This is my first stab at a Layout.

Your help is truly appreciated and I am truly grateful!!!!


Last edited by Jmc1972 on Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Switching from Storm/Rotogrip to Radical - Assistance ne
 Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:07 pm Post Number: #11 Post
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Jmc1972 wrote:

Hi MegaMav,

I’ve been reading very intently in the wiki section - in fact, I’ve read it several times and I think, rather, I hope some things are beginning to stick. Would you mind doing me a favor and taking a look the info I put together below and giving me your thoughts? I bought a Guru Limited to replace my Code Platinum (my all time favorite ball) and I really would like to try my hand at designing the layout but at the same time I don’t want to ruin the ball and I’m not familiar enough with the core, don’t know what the offset, scoop core is, nor what the cover stock is. Also, I’m not familiar with the Motion hole system. Lastly I may need to make adjustments to layouts you helped me with that were based on the benchmark I gave you. Apparently the gentleman who said I was an 80 had it incorrect. Based on what I’ve studied I’m more of a 90 Asym Bemchmark. Re-Read what MegaMav told you in post #2 Now to figure out the Sym Benchmark.

I have another guy helping me also, better to have 2 people than one. Eric Hartwell is helping in another post. This stuff is difficult.


Here’s what I’ve come up with.

Ok, so time for a Semi-real-world test....it becomes real world after we talk about this study and layout I came up with.

I went back and re-read several of the wiki docs and very close attention to the ball speed chart, sweet spot chart and Dual Ratio Guide (REALLY close attention to this one).

From what I gathered based on my stats since I am right at the #2 and slightly speed dominant I’m not going to make an adjustment and have a sweet spot here of 95*, however I do have a slightly high axis Rotation of 17* You mean axis Tilt so I’m subtracting 5*. Sweet spot is 90* Now subtract another 10* for the 75* rotation and being slightly speed dominant = 75* to 80*. This gives my me a benchmark to work with for an Arsenal.

The ball im working with is the Radical Limited - just ordered. (I’m replacing a Code Platinum and Code Black which are my down the 5 board break to the pocket every time, get out trouble, feel good balls lol)

Asym with offset and scoop (no idea what the offset is) finger scoop just means they built the core so your finger holes will not hit it and change the shape of the wt block much

RG MIN 2.501
RG-INT .018
RGDIFF .044

Pin to PAP 4 over 1 3/8” Up
17.3 MPH off hand
275 rev rate

Looking for a ball that will read the midland in the middle to late, make a hard, sharp move to the pocket - almost skid-flip. It starts to rev up off the hand, continues revving uu in the skid, loses just a bit of energy, flips and tracks with solid continuation ending behind the 5 pin. You are talking 3 different layouts to get these reactions. To get the Rev off the hand is Mav's 15* 4.75" 30* that he recommended on a Cash,... To get mid-lane roll is the 30* 5" 45* that he recommended for the Katana,... and to get the almost skid-flip would be your layout #3 (75* 4.5" 25* although it would be more skid flip if you shortened the Pin to PAP distance) for a 2:1 ratio using 100*, I would try 70* 35*


(If could bring back a plate of Hotwings through the ball return well that would be great also Lmao)

3 Layout options
All are +20 for 110* Sweetspot

#1 - Retaining Axis Rotation & Axis Tilt (increase skid, reduce flare)
2:1 Ratio actually 75*:25* is a 3:1 ratio
75* x 4.5 x 25

#2
50* x 4.5 x 60* P4 motion hole (guessing on the hole part) I think you have the motion hole confused with the gradient line hole

#3

45* x 4.5 x 65* P4 - the lower drill angle accounts for the higher Tilt rotation which may work better for

my 4.5 Pin to PAP which is a High Flare Pin to Pap which I’m thinking may help to increase the skid to allow the mid/late midland read. High Flare does not increase the skid. Think of flare as the same as sanding the ball. Low flare is like polishing the ball and high flare is like sanding the ball

Of course none of these account for the ball numbers.

This is on the (+20). I do have a ball spinner and lots of Abralon and love changing surfaces. This is my first stab at a Layout.

Your help is truly appreciated and I am truly grateful!!!!


Some thoughts are in color above. Here is a link to the gradient line balance hole: http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... ntLine.pdf which I think you are confusing with the Motion Hole (Mo does not recomment on the Limited Guru/asymmetrical)


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 Post subject: Re: Switching from Storm/Rotogrip to Radical - Assistance ne
 Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:38 pm Post Number: #12 Post
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elgavachon wrote:

Some thoughts are in color above. Here is a link to the gradient line balance hole: http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... ntLine.pdf which I think you are confusing with the Motion Hole (Mo does not recomment on the Limited Guru/asymmetrical)





I didn’t adjust for Tilt because of this....is it wrong?

Drilling Angle, Sum of Angles, & Ratio Adjustments
Make adjustments based on bowler specs that are extremes
Normal Axis Rotation: 45° - 60°.......Normal Axis Tilt: 13° - 17°

My axis Rotation is 75*. I mistyped 17* - I have a 17* axis Tilt.

Use lower drilling angles for high Axis Rotation
(this may reduce the ratio & sum of angles)

Use lower ratios for high Axis Rotation in conjunction with low Axis Tilt
(helps smooth out breakpoint)

Lower drilling sum slightly for high Axis Tilt -
Lower drilling sum more for high Axis Tilt & high Axis Rotation (i have high Axis Rotation only, should I still do 5?)
(helps ball get into transition quicker - similar to speed dominant bowler)

I lowered totals by 5 based on this....is this also wrong? I’m trying to figure this out?

Because if my speed and rev rate are so close that I’m a number 2 and there really no adjustment so my sweetspot based on that is 95* for benchmark and the calculation is to subtract 5* for my high axis Rotation than that number would be 90*.

If I can figure out how to properly get the benchmark I can then get the others.


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 Post subject: Re: Switching from Storm/Rotogrip to Radical - Assistance ne
 Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:43 pm Post Number: #13 Post
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elgavachon wrote:

Some thoughts are in color above. Here is a link to the gradient line balance hole: http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... ntLine.pdf which I think you are confusing with the Motion Hole (Mo does not recomment on the Limited Guru/asymmetrical)


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 Post subject: Re: Switching from Storm/Rotogrip to Radical - Assistance ne
 Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:54 pm Post Number: #14 Post
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elgavachon wrote:

Some thoughts are in color above. Here is a link to the gradient line balance hole: http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... ntLine.pdf which I think you are confusing with the Motion Hole (Mo does not recomment on the Limited Guru/asymmetrical)


================================================================

I had to go back and re-post this....I tried making changes using color and apparently my code skill is limited to simply spelling the word and apparently there are times where even that is challenged by auto-correct lol.

So I had to correct a typo which I’m sure changes the entire Benchmark tremendously. My Axis Rotation is NOT 17* it’s 75* which is just over the no change mark. My Axis Release is 17*.

Here’s the Re-post without the Motion Holes which I see are not recommended by any means for Asymetric.

Thanks!!!!

From what I gathered based on my stats since I am right at the #2 and slightly speed dominant I’m not going to make an adjustment and have a sweet spot here of 95*, however I do have a slightly high axis Rotation of 75* so I’m subtracting 5*. Sweet spot is 90*. This gives my me a benchmark to work with for an Arsenal.

The ball im working with is the Radical Limited - just ordered. (I’m replacing a Code Platinum and Code Black which are my down the 5 board break to the pocket every time, get out trouble, feel good balls lol)

RG MIN 2.501
RG-INT .018
RGDIFF .044

Pin to PAP 4 over 1 3/8” Up
17.3 MPH off hand
275 rev rate

Looking for a ball that will read the midland in the middle to late, make a hard, sharp move to the pocket - almost skid-flip. It starts to rev up off the hand, continues revving uu in the skid, loses just a bit of energy, flips and tracks with solid continuation ending behind the 5 pin.

(If could bring back a plate of Hotwings through the ball return well that would be great also Lmao)

3 Layout options
All are +20 for 110* Sweetspot

#1 - Retaining Axis Rotation & Axis Tilt (increase skid, reduce flare)
2:1 Ratio
75* x 4.5 x 25

#2
50* x 4.5 x 60*

#3

45* x 4.5 x 65* - the lower drill angle accounts for the higher Tilt rotation which may work better for

my 4.5 Pin to PAP which is a High Flare Pin to Pap which I’m thinking may help to increase the skid to allow the mid/late midland read.

Of course none of these account for the ball numbers.

This is on the (+20). I do have a ball spinner and lots of Abralon and love changing surfaces. This is my first stab at a Layout.

Your help is truly appreciated and I am tr


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 Post subject: Re: Switching from Storm/Rotogrip to Radical - Assistance ne
 Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:20 pm Post Number: #15 Post
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The higher the Tilt, the more you subtract from the totals for a benchmark. I would personally listen to MegaMav. He has a 17* of tilt also, and I am sure he adjusted his recommendations for you using any differences in your specs. both higher tilt and higher rotation add to the length of the skid. You can use any sum of totals for your benchmark (especially factoring in the kind of surfaces you bowl on and also put on your ball). The guides are only to find a starting place. If you have trouble on oil, lower your totals. If you have trouble getting length, increase them.


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 Post subject: Re: Switching from Storm/Rotogrip to Radical - Assistance ne
 Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:22 pm Post Number: #16 Post
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elgavachon wrote:
The higher the Tilt, the more you subtract from the totals for a benchmark. I would personally listen to MegaMav. He has a 17* of tilt also, and I am sure he adjusted his recommendations for you using any differences in your specs. both higher tilt and higher rotation add to the length of the skid. You can use any sum of totals for your benchmark (especially factoring in the kind of surfaces you bowl on and also put on your ball). The guides are only to find a starting place. If you have trouble on oil, lower your totals. If you have trouble getting length, increase them.



Ok. Thanks, that makes sense. If you get a moment would you mind looking at the numbers I came up for the layouts and see if they are correct based on the benchmark I came up with? Or maybe it ignites be better to see if my Benchmark is correct. I did get a bit confused and was unsure if I should make the 5* because it did read to make the change if there was high Tilt “and” high Rotation. I wasn’t sure since I have only high Rotation and it’s minor lay high at that by only a few degrees.

I know I get in trouble at times by over analyzing...I’ve been told by some friends...it’s not rocket science...I tell them to talk with the scientists and engineers in this industry - they may say it’s not rocket science but it’s definately science in motion.

Your help is greatly appreciated!


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 Post subject: Re: Switching from Storm/Rotogrip to Radical - Assistance ne
 Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:42 pm Post Number: #17 Post
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Jmc1972 wrote:


Ok. Thanks, that makes sense. If you get a moment would you mind looking at the numbers I came up for the layouts and see if they are correct based on the benchmark I came up with? Or maybe it ignites be better to see if my Benchmark is correct. I did get a bit confused and was unsure if I should make the 5* because it did read to make the change if there was high Tilt “and” high Rotation. I wasn’t sure since I have only high Rotation and it’s minor lay high at that by only a few degrees.

I know I get in trouble at times by over analyzing...I’ve been told by some friends...it’s not rocket science...I tell them to talk with the scientists and engineers in this industry - they may say it’s not rocket science but it’s definately science in motion.

Your help is greatly appreciated!

#1 is a very high ratio for 17* of tilt.
#2 and #3 are very close together. If you have a very large arsenal, they would seperate a bit, but with a small arsenal they would overlap.


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 Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:49 pm Post Number: #18 Post
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elgavachon wrote:
#1 is a very high ratio for 17* of tilt.
#2 and #3 are very close together. If you have a very large arsenal, they would seperate a bit, but with a small arsenal they would overlap.



Thanks. I’m not sure which one I’ll go with. The Arsenal that was set up for me is mainly for Soort. This Guru Limited is going to be mainly a House Pattern sanctioned and fun league with the wife. Set down on the right side around the 5 board, talk to people about Bowling Companies and Gear, watch the strikes add up and have a good night. Since 2 and 3are close I’ll just go with one of them and make adjustments to the surface as needed to get dialed in.

Thanks!!!!


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