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 Post subject: sport layout advice
 Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:07 am Post Number: #1 Post
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Hi everyone,

Been a bit since I have posted but have a couple of things to figure out. First off, I currently have 2 balls drilled for sport conditions, 1 for the shorter length (black guru) and one for the medium length patterns (black guru) at the moment. I have a few other balls for transition on the shorter and medium patterns, the question now is the long sport stuff 43 ft +.

I am well aware of the article in the wiki here, but would like to see a little more of Mo's ideas on longer sport pattern layouts.

I have 3 balls I can use for the longer sport: 15 lbs NIB

1. Cash 4.5" pin to cg, cg 1.5" left...3.1 oz top
2. Guru supreme 3 7/8" pin to cg, cg 1 3/4" left...3.1 oz top
3. Guru mighty 3" pin to cg, cg 1 3/8" ~ left...3.1 oz top

My current ideas for these are:

Sharper breakpoint
Supreme 45 x 3 3/4 x 25 p3.5

Midlane
Cash 35 x 4 1/2 x 40 p3/3.5

Not sure on the guru mighty though.... might just drill this up for a benchmark for a THS

I love surface and will use it so that is not a problem.

_________________
Stats:
Right handed
Pap is 4 3/4 x 3/8 up currently
Speed around 16.5 off hand
Tilt in the 14-16* range
Rev rate: around 325 - 350 or so
Axis rotation in the 25-70* range
I bowl on Brunswick synthetics. Ths...


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 Post subject: Re: sport layout advice
 Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:24 pm Post Number: #2 Post
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river800 wrote:
Hi everyone,

Been a bit since I have posted but have a couple of things to figure out. First off, I currently have 2 balls drilled for sport conditions, 1 for the shorter length (black guru) and one for the medium length patterns (black guru) at the moment. I have a few other balls for transition on the shorter and medium patterns, the question now is the long sport stuff 43 ft +.

I am well aware of the article in the wiki here, but would like to see a little more of Mo's ideas on longer sport pattern layouts.

I have 3 balls I can use for the longer sport: 15 lbs NIB

1. Cash 4.5" pin to cg, cg 1.5" left...3.1 oz top
2. Guru supreme 3 7/8" pin to cg, cg 1 3/4" left...3.1 oz top
3. Guru mighty 3" pin to cg, cg 1 3/8" ~ left...3.1 oz top

My current ideas for these are:

Sharper breakpoint
Supreme 45 x 3 3/4 x 25 p3.5

Midlane
Cash 35 x 4 1/2 x 40 p3/3.5

Not sure on the guru mighty though.... might just drill this up for a benchmark for a THS

I love surface and will use it so that is not a problem.

I would go with a longer Pin to PAP on the Supreme, 4.5"-5"

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Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: sport layout advice
 Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:49 pm Post Number: #3 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:
I would go with a longer Pin to PAP on the Supreme, 4.5"-5"


Lets talk about this for a minute. I know I have seen Mo and Megamav recommend longer pin to paps of 4 3/4 -5" on strong asymm's for people with higher tilt 16* plus for longer patterns, but I have seen layouts like 45 x 3 1/2 x 25 suggested by Mo for a sharper breakpoint (meaning a more rounded hook shape on the backend per say) on longer patterns.

Lets say that my total for a benchmark is 95* with a 1.4:1 ratio which is 55 x 4 1/4 x 40 ~.

75* 1:1.1 35 x 4 1/2 x 40 midlane (love this layout)
75* 1.4:1 45 x 4 1/4 x 30 lower total benchmark
75* 1.9:1 50 x 4 1/2 x 25 totally strong

65* 1.4:1 40 x 4 1/4 x 25 even lower total benchmark
65* 1.9:1 45 x 4 1/2 x 20 lower total totally strong

60* 1.4:1 35 x 4 1/2 x 25 much lower total benchmark

Are these layouts splitting hairs yes, can they make a difference with different surfaces and balance holes added yes.

I understand the importance of getting the ball to read the friction window ASAP on a long pattern, but lowering the total much more with a benchmark ratio could be more usable overall.

There's some info that is being missed here between low drill angles and lower totals.

_________________
Stats:
Right handed
Pap is 4 3/4 x 3/8 up currently
Speed around 16.5 off hand
Tilt in the 14-16* range
Rev rate: around 325 - 350 or so
Axis rotation in the 25-70* range
I bowl on Brunswick synthetics. Ths...


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 Post subject: Re: sport layout advice
 Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:56 pm Post Number: #4 Post
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river800 wrote:
Lets talk about this for a minute. I know I have seen Mo and Megamav recommend longer pin to paps of 4 3/4 -5" on strong asymm's for people with higher tilt 16* plus for longer patterns, but I have seen layouts like 45 x 3 1/2 x 25 suggested by Mo for a sharper breakpoint (meaning a more rounded hook shape on the backend per say) on longer patterns.

Please show a link to one of these examples, I would like to read it.

I roll with lower tilt and am a fan of shorter pin to PAP's on Asymmetrical equipment especially when looking for more total hook. But, on longer patterns playing closer to the pocket More hook isn't necessary. Getting the ball to roll is necessary.

river800 wrote:
There's some info that is being missed here between low drill angles and lower totals.

What information is missing?
Lower drilling angles produce more flare. The result of having a smaller drilling angle is lower totals. You can't really get around it unless you compromise the VAL angle and Ratio.

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Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: sport layout advice
 Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:32 am Post Number: #5 Post
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Here are some old examples from Mo I have on file of higher tilt suggestions:

Axis Tilt: 20 degrees
Rev Rate: 360-370
Speed: 16.76 (ave speed hand to pins)
Axis Rotation: 55
PAP : 5 3/4" by 1/2"

Mo: With 20* of tilt, I like pin to PAP distances of 4 ¼" to 5 ¾" on asymmetrical balls and 2" to 3 ¼" on symmetrical balls. I like angle ratios of .7:1 to 1.5:1. I like a sweet spot of 90*, that yields a benchmark layout of 45 / 5 / 45.

...

17* tilt
45* rotation
17 mph hand
250 revs

Mo:
benchmark asymmetrical = 40* 4 35* total sums 75*
benchmark symmetrical = 45* 4 35* total sums 80*
for drier patterns asymmetrical 45* 2.5 45*
for drier patterns symmetrical 55* 4.5 40*
for oil asymmetrical = 35* 4.5 25*
for oil symmetrical = 35* 3.5 30*

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USBC Silver level coach


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 Post subject: Re: sport layout advice
 Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:23 am Post Number: #6 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:
Please show a link to one of these examples, I would like to read it.

I roll with lower tilt and am a fan of shorter pin to PAP's on Asymmetrical equipment especially when looking for more total hook. But, on longer patterns playing closer to the pocket More hook isn't necessary. Getting the ball to roll is necessary.


What information is missing?
Lower drilling angles produce more flare. The result of having a smaller drilling angle is lower totals. You can't really get around it unless you compromise the VAL angle and Ratio.


The first example is for this bowler in this thread, the sharp breakpoint for long/heavier patterns. Post # 14
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4224&p=35650&hilit=need+help+with+sweet+spot+and+morich+arsenal#p35650

The second one is a hint at something in this thread for a ball with a 30 x 3 x 50
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=9093&p=72147&hilit=help+with+morich+arsenal#p72147
Apparently the ball with this layout wasn't transitioning on "medium" conditions which is understandable, but for short sport, could be a whole another thing.

This might be an example, 30 x 4 x 45 as in this thread for short sport Post # 2
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=12543&p=97076&hilit=medium+tilt+benchmark#p97076

The 30 x 4 1/2 x 55 in the wiki here is very twitchy, can't be used by just anyone. I know this because I have used it, but when I try and tilt the ball more it works much better but I don't have a bunch of tilt so this layout won't work for me so I am going to try something different. This layout is not good for a lower tilt/higher track person. A 35 x 3 1/4 x 55 might be a better option for a lower tilt higher track person for short sport. One thing that I know is we need more examples for "sport" specific layouts because most people won't be able to think outside the box like some of us can.

_________________
Stats:
Right handed
Pap is 4 3/4 x 3/8 up currently
Speed around 16.5 off hand
Tilt in the 14-16* range
Rev rate: around 325 - 350 or so
Axis rotation in the 25-70* range
I bowl on Brunswick synthetics. Ths...


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 Post subject: Re: sport layout advice
 Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:24 am Post Number: #7 Post
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deanchamp wrote:
Here are some old examples from Mo I have on file of higher tilt suggestions:

Axis Tilt: 20 degrees
Rev Rate: 360-370
Speed: 16.76 (ave speed hand to pins)
Axis Rotation: 55
PAP : 5 3/4" by 1/2"

Mo: With 20* of tilt, I like pin to PAP distances of 4 ¼" to 5 ¾" on asymmetrical balls and 2" to 3 ¼" on symmetrical balls. I like angle ratios of .7:1 to 1.5:1. I like a sweet spot of 90*, that yields a benchmark layout of 45 / 5 / 45.

...

17* tilt
45* rotation
17 mph hand
250 revs

Mo:
benchmark asymmetrical = 40* 4 35* total sums 75*
benchmark symmetrical = 45* 4 35* total sums 80*
for drier patterns asymmetrical 45* 2.5 45*
for drier patterns symmetrical 55* 4.5 40*
for oil asymmetrical = 35* 4.5 25*
for oil symmetrical = 35* 3.5 30*


Thank you!

_________________
Stats:
Right handed
Pap is 4 3/4 x 3/8 up currently
Speed around 16.5 off hand
Tilt in the 14-16* range
Rev rate: around 325 - 350 or so
Axis rotation in the 25-70* range
I bowl on Brunswick synthetics. Ths...


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