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 Post subject: Ball layout help please
 Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 11:26 am Post Number: #1 Post
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Hello i am about to drill my ball using my specs for the first time, could you please help?

2 handed, thumbless rightie, prefer the length with back end motion
PAP 5" over 3/8" up
17mph off-hand 350-375 rpm
65*AR 3-7*AT

Normally playing on:
BW Synthetic 42' heavy oil
BW Avin. 39' medium

Balls I am having Hyroad Pearl, No Rules and Special Ops (all pin 4-4.5, top 2.5-3), gonna order Roto Hot Cell as I want to try playing straight and in with an assym urethane. Any suggesrion on layout on which ball to use on which lane on which condition?

Any finger pitches reccomendation is really appreciated?


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 Post subject: Re: Ball layout help please
 Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 3:18 pm Post Number: #2 Post
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2HBowler wrote:
Hello i am about to drill my ball using my specs for the first time, could you please help?

2 handed, thumbless rightie, prefer the length with back end motion
PAP 5" over 3/8" up
17mph off-hand 350-375 rpm
65*AR 3-7*AT

Normally playing on:
BW Synthetic 42' heavy oil
BW Avin. 39' medium

Balls I am having Hyroad Pearl, No Rules and Special Ops (all pin 4-4.5, top 2.5-3), gonna order Roto Hot Cell as I want to try playing straight and in with an assym urethane. Any suggesrion on layout on which ball to use on which lane on which condition?
To be able to play straight and in from the outside of the lane you will need to lower your rotation to find success. Layout and ball choice will help get you to the pocket but carry will be another story.
Any finger pitches reccomendation is really appreciated?

Comment in Color above
Sweetspot 110* Total 2.5:1 Ratio Asymmetrical Benchmark 80-3.5-30

Listed from Strongest to Weakest...
No Rules ............. Benchmark .............. 80-3.5-30

Special Ops ........ Control ..................... 80-3.5-50

HyRoad .............. low flare ................... 75-5-25

Hot Cell ....***Modified Control ... 60-5-50 P4 balance hole ***

***The layout for the Hot Cell is an attempt to help you play the lane straighter with your normal 65* rotation. The 5" pin to PAP is a forward rolling pin position. I lowered the totals to compensate for the weaker coverstock. I did this by lowering the Drilling angle so it will read the lane earlier. So I called it a Modified Control layout.
This is Not going to facilitate you learning how to play the lane with less rotation. It will help you get the ball to the pocket but will not improve your carry percentage. I'm Not saying that you won't be able to get strikes at all. I am saying that you will need to be very precise in where your ball hits the pocket.
If you are able to lower your rotation a Benchmark layout would serve you much better.***

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Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
65* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: Ball layout help please
 Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 4:22 pm Post Number: #3 Post
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although learning to control the rotation urethane is far more suscpetible to speed changes than rotation changes . If I remember correctly there is a video of chris barnes somewhere explaining the same thought process of difference between playing urethane and reactive.

I usually go with a stronger pin placement than usual with urethane to maximise flare but haven't seen the difference the high diff asym core will make so not sure if I would make an adjustment on the hot cell.


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 Post subject: Re: Ball layout help please
 Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:05 pm Post Number: #4 Post
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gunso wrote:
although learning to control the rotation urethane is far more suscpetible to speed changes than rotation changes . If I remember correctly there is a video of chris barnes somewhere explaining the same thought process of difference between playing urethane and reactive.

I usually go with a stronger pin placement than usual with urethane to maximise flare but haven't seen the difference the high diff asym core will make so not sure if I would make an adjustment on the hot cell.

Rotation affects length (skid length and length to roll) very much like speed does. He also doesn't have the extremely high rev rate than many no-thumbers/2-handers have. Thus my recommendation.

To facilitate learning how to lower rotation the Benchmark layout 80-3.5-30 on the Hot Cell would probably be the best idea in my opinion.

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Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
65* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: Ball layout help please
 Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:42 pm Post Number: #5 Post
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Thank you Erik, gunso, much appreciated

My AT is low, may you please recommend any pitches?


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 Post subject: Re: Ball layout help please
 Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 6:00 pm Post Number: #6 Post
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What are your current finger pitches/laterals?

I am not a no-thumber nor am I an expert when it comes to fitting. So, I will have to defer to those that are. But, I am sure they will want to know what you are currently using.

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Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
65* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: Ball layout help please
 Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 6:07 pm Post Number: #7 Post
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Erik I drilled my balls with basic layout for newbie few months ago, and my PSO did it without fitting so I believe no pitches.


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 Post subject: Re: Ball layout help please
 Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 7:08 pm Post Number: #8 Post
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I did a quick search and found this thread...

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=5270&p=66070&hilit=finger+pitches#p66070

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Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
65* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: Ball layout help please
 Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 2:11 pm Post Number: #9 Post
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Erik, gunso

I am technically lost, may I know why pin carry would be a problem?

Is it solved by increasing speed as lowering rotation is a very difficult story? Say 18-18.5 with benchmark layout will be a good option?


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 Post subject: Re: Ball layout help please
 Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 2:40 pm Post Number: #10 Post
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pin carry would only be a problem if the ball doesn't get into a roll before it hits the pins. the solution is slowing down


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 Post subject: Re: Ball layout help please
 Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 4:29 pm Post Number: #11 Post
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gunso wrote:
pin carry would only be a problem if the ball doesn't get into a roll before it hits the pins. the solution is slowing down


Worth a try, either slowing down or lowering rotation, thanks gunso


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 Post subject: Re: Ball layout help please
 Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 7:21 pm Post Number: #12 Post
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Nothing is more frustrating than hitting the pocket flush and leaving 10 pins.

Just slowing the speed down also affects the skid length. It also makes you more rev dominant. Using the wrong layout is still using the wrong layout, You will presented with other issues that affect your ball motion like hooking too early.
Now what do you do? Add More rotation to get more length? Pick the Speed back up?

Your low tilt is the main issue here. Higher rotation counteracts this to a point to be able to get more length before the ball starts to hook.

Loosing tilt too fast and getting to Zero Tilt before the ball hits the pins is what I am referring to when I talk about carry percentage. That is why the lower Pin to PAP Asymmetrical layouts are suggested. To help store that tilt so there is something left when the ball hits the pins.

Maybe I should Not have come up with the Modified Control layout to give you exactly what you asked for. I could have just given you what you need not what you wanted.
But, I wanted to use that example to help explain the error in your thinking on how you are trying to play the lanes.

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Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
65* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: Ball layout help please
 Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 8:35 pm Post Number: #13 Post
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2HBowler wrote:
Erik I drilled my balls with basic layout for newbie few months ago, and my PSO did it without fitting so I believe no pitches.


If he didn't at the very least measure your hand, go to a different driller and start over. -- JohnP


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 Post subject: Re: Ball layout help please
 Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:12 pm Post Number: #14 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:
Comment in Color above
Sweetspot 110* Total 2.5:1 Ratio Asymmetrical Benchmark 80-3.5-30

Listed from Strongest to Weakest...
No Rules ............. Benchmark .............. 80-3.5-30

Special Ops ........ Control ..................... 80-3.5-50

HyRoad .............. low flare ................... 75-5-25

Hot Cell ....***Modified Control ... 60-5-50 P4 balance hole ***

***The layout for the Hot Cell is an attempt to help you play the lane straighter with your normal 65* rotation. The 5" pin to PAP is a forward rolling pin position. I lowered the totals to compensate for the weaker coverstock. I did this by lowering the Drilling angle so it will read the lane earlier. So I called it a Modified Control layout.
This is Not going to facilitate you learning how to play the lane with less rotation. It will help you get the ball to the pocket but will not improve your carry percentage. I'm Not saying that you won't be able to get strikes at all. I am saying that you will need to be very precise in where your ball hits the pocket.
If you are able to lower your rotation a Benchmark layout would serve you much better.***


Erik, got No Rules drilled and played, more than happy with its motion of length and quick transition when exiting the oil with powerful hit

http://i1067.photobucket.com/albums/u42 ... ybtjov.jpg
http://i1067.photobucket.com/albums/u42 ... hsvoa4.jpg

Just want to confirm that if the layout is normal, especially the xhole

I also want to replace the control Special Ops (crazily absorbing oil) by either Snaplock or Codeblack, which one you think that suits me?

Again, thanks a lot for your help, very detailed


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 Post subject: Re: Ball layout help please
 Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:57 pm Post Number: #15 Post
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I am unable to see your pics, try posting them as an attachment.

With the Recommended Control layout....

The Code Red would be closer to the Special Ops.

The Code Black would be closer to the HyRoad.

The Snap Lock will be more like the No Rules.

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Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
65* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: Ball layout help please
 Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:00 am Post Number: #16 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:
I am unable to see your pics, try posting them as an attachment.

With the Recommended Control layout....

The Code Red would be closer to the Special Ops.

The Code Black would be closer to the HyRoad.

The Snap Lock will be more like the No Rules.


Attached below Eric


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


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 Post subject: Re: Ball layout help please
 Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:41 pm Post Number: #17 Post
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How was your PAP measured?

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Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
65* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: Ball layout help please
 Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:14 pm Post Number: #18 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:
How was your PAP measured?


Hi Erik, I made it down 3/8 then go left 5" for my center of grip, it was for drilling

To defined as your suggestion to measure right, then up


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 Post subject: Re: Ball layout help please
 Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:41 pm Post Number: #19 Post
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Had to confirm we are on the same page.
It should have looked like this with no balance needed.


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Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
65* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: Ball layout help please
 Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:52 pm Post Number: #20 Post
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I estimate the layout you have on the No Rules is 90-3.5-60


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Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
65* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16mph off hand


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