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 Post subject: Sweet spot/ratio confirmation
 Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 12:19 am Post Number: #1 Post
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This bowlers stats are...

Right handed
12-13mph-on monitor
200rpm
9* tilt
45*-60* rotation
PAP 5 9/16 by 3/4 up

110* +or- 20 with a 2:1 ratio for benchmark.

This correct?

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PAP-5 1/16 by 3/4 up
Speed-16mph on monitor
Rev-325rpm
Tilt-10*
Rotation-70*-90*


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 Post subject: Re: Sweet spot/ratio confirmation
 Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 1:05 am Post Number: #2 Post
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Lledsmarttam wrote:
This bowlers stats are...

Right handed
12-13mph-on monitor
200rpm
9* tilt
45*-60* rotation
PAP 5 9/16 by 3/4 up

110* +or- 20 with a 2:1 ratio for benchmark.

This correct?

By the time the ball gets to where the speed is measured, it has slowed down due to friction. Mo always added 2 to 2.5 mph on the speed to get approximate to the off hand speed. You listed the speed as 12 to 13 so average it to 12.5 and add 2.5 you would get 15 mph which would be matched at 200 rpm. I would use matched at 95* unless I knew the bowler and they had trouble with obvious excess RPMs.


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 Post subject: Re: Sweet spot/ratio confirmation
 Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 1:31 am Post Number: #3 Post
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I do know the bowler. He is my father and I bowl leagues with him.
I think he is slightly rev dominant. His speed isn't very consistent. Actually ranges between high 11 to low 13 on monitor. I put him to 100 for his slight rev dominance and 110 for low tilt.

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PAP-5 1/16 by 3/4 up
Speed-16mph on monitor
Rev-325rpm
Tilt-10*
Rotation-70*-90*


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 Post subject: Re: Sweet spot/ratio confirmation
 Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 1:34 am Post Number: #4 Post
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Lledsmarttam wrote:
I do know the bowler. He is my father and I bowl leagues with him.
I think he is slightly rev dominant. His speed isn't very consistent. Actually ranges between high 11 to low 13 on monitor. I put him to 100 for his slight rev dominance and 110 for low tilt.

Sounds good then.


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 Post subject: Re: Sweet spot/ratio confirmation
 Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 1:39 am Post Number: #5 Post
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Is there a way I can post a personal video on here? Every time I try to post any images says "file to large".

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PAP-5 1/16 by 3/4 up
Speed-16mph on monitor
Rev-325rpm
Tilt-10*
Rotation-70*-90*


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 Post subject: Re: Sweet spot/ratio confirmation
 Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 1:50 am Post Number: #6 Post
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Lledsmarttam wrote:
This bowlers stats are...

Right handed
12-13mph-on monitor
200rpm
9* tilt
45*-60* rotation
PAP 5 9/16 by 3/4 up

110* +or- 20 with a 2:1 ratio for benchmark.

This correct?

Nothing beats first hand experience, seeing a bowler in action. With that said I would say to trust your instincts.

Once you drill one ball for someone example Benchmark drilling. Anything drilled after that is adjusted within the Range around it to predict the new ball motion.
5* is not alot and barely noticeable by most bowlers

With your Father having issue keeping the speed up then using totals of 130* for Control or Long and Strong would be a good idea. Benchmark is a Strong reaction that would be more usable on fresh conditions.

Asymmetrical Benchmark ... 75-3-35
Symmetrical Benchmark .... 90-4.25-30 drilling angle to Cg to position Cg towards grip center.

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Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
65* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: Sweet spot/ratio confirmation
 Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 1:56 am Post Number: #7 Post
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He currently has a ball drilled 90x5x40. It is a Pyramid Pathogen with OOB finish 2000 polish. He has trouble using this ball even on fresh (sometimes to much hook).
Would it be recommended to go higher in total and lower in ratios?
If static weights allow would adding a P1 hole be a good idea?

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PAP-5 1/16 by 3/4 up
Speed-16mph on monitor
Rev-325rpm
Tilt-10*
Rotation-70*-90*


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 Post subject: Re: Sweet spot/ratio confirmation
 Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 1:59 am Post Number: #8 Post
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Lledsmarttam wrote:
Is there a way I can post a personal video on here? Every time I try to post any images says "file to large".

Post the video on Youtube then use the [youtube] youtube link [/youtube] and put the link inside the brackets.

If it is pictures, I use photobucket, then use the [img]link%20to%20pic[/img]

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Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
65* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: Sweet spot/ratio confirmation
 Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 2:08 am Post Number: #9 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:
Nothing beats first hand experience, seeing a bowler in action. With that said I would say to trust your instincts.

Once you drill one ball for someone example Benchmark drilling. Anything drilled after that is adjusted within the Range around it to predict the new ball motion.
5* is not alot and barely noticeable by most bowlers

With your Father having issue keeping the speed up then using totals of 130* for Control or Long and Strong would be a good idea. Benchmark is a Strong reaction that would be more usable on fresh conditions.

Asymmetrical Benchmark ... 75-3-35
Symmetrical Benchmark .... 90-4.25-30 drilling angle to Cg to position Cg towards grip center.


Pin in ring for control layout
Correct?
How about low flare?

_________________
-Knowledge is power-
PAP-5 1/16 by 3/4 up
Speed-16mph on monitor
Rev-325rpm
Tilt-10*
Rotation-70*-90*


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 Post subject: Re: Sweet spot/ratio confirmation
 Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 2:29 am Post Number: #10 Post
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Lledsmarttam wrote:
He currently has a ball drilled 90x5x40. It is a Pyramid Pathogen with OOB finish 2000 polish. He has trouble using this ball even on fresh (sometimes to much hook).
Would it be recommended to go higher in total and lower in ratios?
If static weights allow would adding a P1 hole be a good idea?

The Pathogen is a lower differential ball and drilled with a 5" pin to PAP has a very long hook zone.
Lowering the Ratio means raising the VAL angle making the hook zone even longer.

The trouble with raising totals especially with Symmetricals is you can't make the drilling any larger.

Using a stronger pin to PAP will make the hook zone shorter but it will also make it more angular.

What part of the lane is he using, is he is playing the outside in the friction?
Sounds like he is bowling on lanes with alot of friction. Maybe the coverstock is too strong for him to match up to it.
Layouts can help but remember the major factor in ball motion is the Coverstock.

Has he tried any other surfaces on the ball?

Lledsmarttam wrote:
Pin in ring for control layout
Correct?
How about low flare?

Pin in the Ring finger Symmetrical is a low flare 90-5-55 and is +35* a bit outside his Range.
The Pathogen is basically the Symmetrical low flare.

Asymmetrical Low Flare ...... 90-2.25-40
Asymmetrical Control .......... 80-3-50

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Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
65* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: Sweet spot/ratio confirmation
 Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 3:08 am Post Number: #11 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:
The Pathogen is a lower differential ball and drilled with a 5" pin to PAP has a very long hook zone.
Lowering the Ratio means raising the VAL angle making the hook zone even longer.

The trouble with raising totals especially with Symmetricals is you can't make the drilling any larger.

Using a stronger pin to PAP will make the hook zone shorter but it will also make it more angular.

What part of the lane is he using, is he is playing the outside in the friction?
Sounds like he is bowling on lanes with alot of friction. Maybe the coverstock is too strong for him to match up to it.
Layouts can help but remember the major factor in ball motion is the Coverstock.

Has he tried any other surfaces on the ball?


Pin in the Ring finger Symmetrical is a low flare 90-5-55 and is +35* a bit outside his Range.
The Pathogen is basically the Symmetrical low flare.

Asymmetrical Low Flare ...... 90-2.25-40
Asymmetrical Control .......... 80-3-50



The ball was originally 2000 polish OOB. We tried a 4000 with polish and slip agent. Made the ball a little more usable but still struggling with it.

Also what about the addition of a P1 hole to reduce reaction?

He likes to play old school lines like up the boards over 2nd arrow.

Maybe a weaker cover ball like urethane is in order?

_________________
-Knowledge is power-
PAP-5 1/16 by 3/4 up
Speed-16mph on monitor
Rev-325rpm
Tilt-10*
Rotation-70*-90*


Last edited by Lledsmarttam on Mon Aug 21, 2017 4:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Sweet spot/ratio confirmation
 Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 3:28 am Post Number: #12 Post
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Lledsmarttam wrote:


The ball was originally 2000 polish OOB. We tried a 4000 with polish and slip agent. Made the ball a little more usable but still struggling with it.

He likes to play old school lines like up the boards over 2nd arrow.

Maybe a weaker cover ball like urethane is in order?

With the use of polish I take it that getting length is an issue.

I don't think Urethane is the answer. Though it wouldn't be a bad thing to go to when the lanes have too much friction. Staying within the Pyramid family the Path Rising could be an option. Something that is listed for dry conditions.

My thoughts keep coming back to Asymmetrical low flare.

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Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
65* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: Sweet spot/ratio confirmation
 Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 11:55 pm Post Number: #13 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:
With the use of polish I take it that getting length is an issue.

I don't think Urethane is the answer. Though it wouldn't be a bad thing to go to when the lanes have too much friction. Staying within the Pyramid family the Path Rising could be an option. Something that is listed for dry conditions.

What could I expect to see with a P1 hole? Would this help with more length or at least the ball not crossing over so much?


My thoughts keep coming back to Asymmetrical low flare.

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-Knowledge is power-
PAP-5 1/16 by 3/4 up
Speed-16mph on monitor
Rev-325rpm
Tilt-10*
Rotation-70*-90*


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 Post subject: Re: Sweet spot/ratio confirmation
 Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 12:34 am Post Number: #14 Post
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From your description the Cg is close to grip center and not going to give you much room for a sizable P1.
P1 will reduce the flare and give him more length delaying the roll phase. With the Pathogen already being a low flare the results of a P1 will not be very noticeable. As is, the core is not aiding the ball motion much if any.

Layouts and balance holes are great to help match a bowler up to the lane conditions. But it is not a fix all for poor execution of poor lane play.

If he continues to want to play straight up 2nd arrow even when the oil line has burned up weaker equipment is the only thing that will help. He needs to change his angles and lines on the lane.

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Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
65* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: Sweet spot/ratio confirmation
 Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 12:57 am Post Number: #15 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:
From your description the Cg is close to grip center and not going to give you much room for a sizable P1.
P1 will reduce the flare and give him more length delaying the roll phase. With the Pathogen already being a low flare the results of a P1 will not be very noticeable. As is, the core is not aiding the ball motion much if any.

Layouts and balance holes are great to help match a bowler up to the lane conditions. But it is not a fix all for poor execution of poor lane play.

If he continues to want to play straight up 2nd arrow even when the oil line has burned up weaker equipment is the only thing that will help. He needs to change his angles and lines on the lane.



Ok thanks Eric. I will try to get him to do that. That is the problem that he doesn't understand staying in the oil or getting out of the burn.

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PAP-5 1/16 by 3/4 up
Speed-16mph on monitor
Rev-325rpm
Tilt-10*
Rotation-70*-90*


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 Post subject: Re: Sweet spot/ratio confirmation
 Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 2:38 am Post Number: #16 Post
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Find some video on youtube that shows the pros bowling on the blue oil to help illustrate what is happening to the lane condition as the bowling balls breakdown the pattern.

The Wiki has a section titled Bowling Environment for more info about what is happening to the lane conditions.

http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... nvironment

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Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
65* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16mph off hand


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