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 Post subject: Re: grip center from pap
 Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 2:28 pm Post Number: #21 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:
With your interpretation ~70-3.5-30 with the grip moved 6-3/4" from his PAP from the existing ball that has an approximate layout of ~75-5.5-40. It makes more sense if you don't assume the PAP location on the ball follows the grip location.


What you have to realize is no matter where you put your grip your PAP and track location is basically always going to be the same locations from your grip center. The PAP and track follow your grip so you dont have to worry about putting your grip too close to your track.

As far as how it will roll depends on what kind of balls, Symmetrical or Asymmetrical.


Thank you Eric. These are the answers this particular type of bowling customer wants and appreciates. That is, until they fully understand the intricacy of modern layout methods. Their language will then change proportionately.

For everyone else, the op did not request a change in his pap. Using whatever method at his disposal, or maybe it was just a visualization, he asked a fairly simple question that anyone in the pro shop business should have been able to decipher.

No, instead, people take it upon themselves to blast everyone and everything because the terminology doesn't quite fit their way of thinking. That, people, is precisely why bowling is in the present shape it's in.


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 Post subject: Re: grip center from pap
 Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 5:53 pm Post Number: #22 Post
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Wow. I guess I didn't ask my queston quite right. I was thinking "Pin to Pap" being 6 3/4 inches. I'm told that will result in the ball rolling end over end with very little flare.

My guess here would be if the ball was symetrical it would be very stable and if asymetrical I might get a little "balance" motion to make the ball move a little.

At least that's the logic in my head. And then , if I had someone "know" about balance holes I could get a little more motion out of the ball to hook left for right handed.

As you can see my specifications on release or low semi roller....very little end over end. Suffer on long patterns more than I should so I was trying to see if my 6 3/4 distance might result in more end over end at back. I've gone the other way with 1" pin to pap and didn't like it at all.

Sorry for the funky first questin.

_________________
John H. in Lincoln, CA
PAP =5 over and 1/2" up
Rev Rate = 275
Speed = 14 - 15 on monitor
Axis Rotation = 55 degrees
Axis tilt = 18 degrees
Average = 215 house & 200 sport
55 years of bowling = old guy trying to keep up


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 Post subject: Re: grip center from pap
 Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 9:02 pm Post Number: #23 Post
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Yes, as you can see, there is a huge difference between pin distance and cog distance.

....can you explain what kind of ball reaction you are looking for? That information would narrow it down for many of the people on this site.


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 Post subject: Re: grip center from pap
 Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 11:30 pm Post Number: #24 Post
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Linknblue wrote:
Wow. I guess I didn't ask my queston quite right. I was thinking "Pin to Pap" being 6 3/4 inches. I'm told that will result in the ball rolling end over end with very little flare.

My guess here would be if the ball was symetrical it would be very stable and if asymetrical I might get a little "balance" motion to make the ball move a little.

At least that's the logic in my head. And then , if I had someone "know" about balance holes I could get a little more motion out of the ball to hook left for right handed.

As you can see my specifications on release or low semi roller....very little end over end. Suffer on long patterns more than I should so I was trying to see if my 6 3/4 distance might result in more end over end at back. I've gone the other way with 1" pin to pap and didn't like it at all.

Sorry for the funky first questin.

Putting the Pin 6-3/4" from your PAP on an Asymmetrical ball is a big time no-no. Any error in release or PAP measurement and you end up flaring the wrong way bouncing over the gripping holes .

Are you looking for long oil layouts?

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Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
65* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: grip center from pap
 Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 3:19 pm Post Number: #25 Post
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Because I've got a low tracking semi roll release which I've had for 55 plus years it's pretty engrained in my game. Today's game is pretty much a power game with high tracks. I'll never get the power game but was trying to figure out a drilling that would give me more end over end but with hitting power.

I've never had a ball roll out using my normal release. I've always had more difficulty with long/heavy oil patterns.

I can go up the back of the ball for a release but it's weak and flat......and of course that's not what I'm looking for. As soon as I try and put a little more ooompapa on the ball I'm back to my low track again. I can't seem to get the power trying to go end over end.

Honestly, I'm looking for an easy way out because I don't really practice anymore. I'm 15 games a week max between leagues and practice shots before league and maybe a no tap outing once in a while.

Just asking if it's possible to drill up something that's end over end at the back with a little pop.

I once had a ball drilled in some funky way (an old AMF Ninja Fury) where if I didn't literally try and throw a spinner (really low track) it would track over thumb. I think the track migrated the wrong way but if I spun the ball on dry conditions the ball never jumped....very controllable...but that's the only time I could use it. It was years ago.......I remember it looking like it was drilled for negative and had a huge balance hole with the pin way down low.

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John H. in Lincoln, CA
PAP =5 over and 1/2" up
Rev Rate = 275
Speed = 14 - 15 on monitor
Axis Rotation = 55 degrees
Axis tilt = 18 degrees
Average = 215 house & 200 sport
55 years of bowling = old guy trying to keep up


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 Post subject: Re: grip center from pap
 Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 8:46 pm Post Number: #26 Post
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Tropical Storm (pearl, not the black/cherry)

You can safely drill this ball with 4" pin @ 35-40º to the VAL.
Long smooth skid and a decent response to friction without being difficult to keep off the nose.
The key to this ball is the very low diff and mild Reactor Pearl cover.

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Byron

RH
PAP: 5.625" x 0
REVRATE: 360
SPEED: 17mph at release
AR: 55º
AT: 7º


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 Post subject: Re: grip center from pap
 Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 11:16 pm Post Number: #27 Post
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Linknblue wrote:
I've always had more difficulty with long/heavy oil patterns.

I always start by figuring the Benchmark and working from there.
Sweetspot 90* Total 1:1 Ratio Asymmetrical Benchmark 45-4-45

Asymmetrical Layouts
Long Sport ............ 35-5.25-35 P3
Totally Strong ........ 40-4-30
Midlane ................. 30-4-40
Med Sport ............. 30-5-55 pin in the Middle finger
Benchmark ............ 45-4-45
Long and Strong .... 65-4-45
Control ................. 45-4-60 pin in the Ring finger
low flare ............... 65-2.25-45
Short Sport ........... 30-5-70

Symmetrical Layouts (drilling angle to Cg)
Totally Strong ........ Double Thumb 50-4-30 base layout
Med Sport ............. 60-3-50 balance hole 2" below midline on the VAL
Benchmark ............ 55-4-40 balance hole 1.5" below midline on the VAL
Long and Strong .... 80-4-40
Control ................. 50-4-60 balance hole 2" below midline on the VAL
low flare ............... 70-5-40
Short Sport ........... 70-3-65 P3

I got carried away, once I figured for the strong layouts the others just followed.

The Sport layouts are the more forward rolling layouts

What balls and layouts are you currently rolling?

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Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
65* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: grip center from pap
 Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:03 pm Post Number: #28 Post
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Linknblue wrote:
John H. in Lincoln, CA
PAP = 4 1/2 over and 7/8" up
Rev Rate = 290 to 310
Speed = 15.5 - 16 on monitor
Axis Rotation = 55 degrees
Axis tilt = 18 degrees
Average = 215 house & 200 sport
55 years of bowling = old guy trying to keep up


John, how was your rev rate measured? Is it accurate? I only ask because that seems like a strong release for an "old guy trying to keep up". Regardless, even at 300 RPM and 18 MPH off your hand, you're speed dominant, with medium/high tilt. It's no shock you struggle on long/heavy patterns and can't get the ball to transition.

Do you perform regular surface maintenance on your equipment? Clean and de-oil? Have you experimented with surface adjustments, or do you just roll with "lane shine"?

I'm certain that Eric's layouts (particularly something like Long Sport, 35x5.25x35 w/P3) will help. I also think a 500 grit Abralon pad might help as well. A strong cover/core with an early rolling layout and some surface would be the first thing I'd try. You want something that flares, burns off tilt and rotation and still ends up at the pins with energy and drive/continuation (don't we all?).

What equipment and layouts are you using right now?

Steve

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18-19 mph (15.5-16.5 on monitor), 375 rpm, PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8 up, AT: 12*, AR: 45*


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 Post subject: Re: grip center from pap
 Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 4:47 pm Post Number: #29 Post
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I'm a freak about ball maintenance. I do keep up with that. Got my own spinner and cleaners so that's not a problem. Right now I'm throwing mostly "Pyramid" stuff. Most of the layouts are 4 x 2 x 4 or 5 x 2 x 3. I've got a couple of Storm, a couple of 900global and a couple Brunswick. I'm mostly symetrical with a couple asymetrical. Honestly, I can't tell the difference in ball reaction from SYM to ASYM. I've got balls with pin above ring finger or further left and CG and or MB usually swings right. I've got only one ball with CG in grip center or close.

My rev rate....it's estimated based on videos I've watched of others with similar ball release/speeds. I do hook the ball much more than seniors normally do. On THS I'm almost never "up" the boards. I always have to swing it. Generally the best I can get is 10 board to about 8 board at break point. That's playing the puddle pretty much. I'm still laying the ball 10 to 20 boards left of target. Deepest I get on THS is 15 board and out to 5 at breakpoint but this is dangerous and not really maintainable for me.

When I get too far inside it's flat 10's cuz ball doesn't have enough left in it to hit.

I'm switching back to 16# balls so rev rate goes down a bit cuz I don't have the handstrength to put a lot on them. Just looking for a little better carry on back.

I'm a strong guy but arthritis is setting in thus the rev rate going down. My speed is 14 to 16 on lane readers but that's with a bend in the middle so speeds really more than what shows.

_________________
John H. in Lincoln, CA
PAP =5 over and 1/2" up
Rev Rate = 275
Speed = 14 - 15 on monitor
Axis Rotation = 55 degrees
Axis tilt = 18 degrees
Average = 215 house & 200 sport
55 years of bowling = old guy trying to keep up


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