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 Post subject: grip center from pap
 Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:10 pm Post Number: #1 Post
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What happens if you put your grip center line 6 3/4" from your pap?

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Average = 215 house & 200 sport
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 Post subject: Re: grip center from pap
 Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:27 pm Post Number: #2 Post
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Think about what you just said...

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 Post subject: Re: grip center from pap
 Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:30 pm Post Number: #3 Post
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I did and thus my question. I have and it makes it pretty much like a left handers drill layout. At least that's what I have in my minds eye. I've had the ball drilled 5 1/2 inches from my pap which put the pin somewhere around my middle finger line.

I wanting to know how the ball will roll if I was to do this layout 6 3/4 from my pap. My first track is about 9 inches away from my pap looking at the track and pin relationship so I'm still 2 1/4 inches from my first track at 6 3/4. Am I mixing things up?

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John H. in Lincoln, CA
PAP =5 over and 1/2" up
Rev Rate = 275
Speed = 14 - 15 on monitor
Axis Rotation = 55 degrees
Axis tilt = 18 degrees
Average = 215 house & 200 sport
55 years of bowling = old guy trying to keep up


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 Post subject: Re: grip center from pap
 Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 9:04 pm Post Number: #4 Post
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Linknblue wrote:
I did and thus my question. I have and it makes it pretty much like a left handers drill layout. At least that's what I have in my minds eye. I've had the ball drilled 5 1/2 inches from my pap which put the pin somewhere around my middle finger line.

I wanting to know how the ball will roll if I was to do this layout 6 3/4 from my pap. My first track is about 9 inches away from my pap looking at the track and pin relationship so I'm still 2 1/4 inches from my first track at 6 3/4. Am I mixing things up?

Zero flare, the core will be spinning end over end all the way to the pins.
Its roll will be completely dependent on the coverstock and its preparation.

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PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
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12* tilt
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 Post subject: Re: grip center from pap
 Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 9:20 pm Post Number: #5 Post
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Eric or anyone, How do you put someones PAP 6 3/4 " from the centerline of their grip?

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 Post subject: Re: grip center from pap
 Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 9:33 pm Post Number: #6 Post
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He mentioned 5-1/2" being pin near his middle finger I just assumed "Pin" 6-3/4" from PAP.

Unless your PAP is 6 3/4" from grip center, Full Roller, it is not possible to put the grip there.

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 Post subject: Re: grip center from pap
 Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 9:41 pm Post Number: #7 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:
He mentioned 5-1/2" being pin near his middle finger I just assumed "Pin" 6-3/4" from PAP.

Unless your PAP is 6 3/4" from grip center, Full Roller, it is not possible to put the grip there.


Thats what I figured too. Since your reply didnt mention it I kind of wondered if you caught what he wrote.

Linknblue:
The org. Post should be corrected to say Pin not grip centerline to avoid possible confusion to others.

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 Post subject: Re: grip center from pap
 Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:22 am Post Number: #8 Post
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The initial question is pretty clear, and it is not possible.
The centerline bisects the fingers and the thumb and its not possible to have an entire line be equidistant to a singular point 6 3/4" away.

Plus your PAP is based on your release and measured in relation to the centerline and midline.
Your PAP is an initial stable point based on your release. It cannot be modified independent of release.

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 Post subject: Re: grip center from pap
 Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:53 pm Post Number: #9 Post
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Your centerline is defined as a line between the fingers and bisecting your thumbhole AT A DISTANCE FROM YOUR PAP = YOUR PAP'S HORIZONTAL COORDINATE. You can not move your centerline horizontally without your PAP moving with it.

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 Post subject: Re: grip center from pap
 Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 4:44 pm Post Number: #10 Post
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He has the terminology mixed up, he's going backward. He mentions his pap is 4 1/2. If he places the center of the grip 6 3/4 from his pap, he'll end up with something like a 4 inch pin to pap. That's a random number, but I think that's his interpretation.


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 Post subject: Re: grip center from pap
 Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 9:24 pm Post Number: #11 Post
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Quote:
He has the terminology mixed up, he's going backward. He mentions his pap is 4 1/2. If he places the center of the grip 6 3/4 from his pap, he'll end up with something like a 4 inch pin to pap. That's a random number, but I think that's his interpretation.


If his horizontal PAP component is 4 1/2" and his vertical component is 0, his PAP will always be 4 1/2" from his grip center. That's how the PAP location is defined. If he does have a vertical component his PAP will be somewhat greater than 4 1/2" from his grip center, but it will always be the same distance. For any layout there will always be two points on the grip centerline that are 6 3/4" from the PAP, one up the centerline and one down the centerline, but they will not be perpendicular to the centerline. -- JohnP


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 Post subject: Re: grip center from pap
 Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 1:08 am Post Number: #12 Post
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If someone comes into the shop and says: "Put the center of my grip 6 3/4 inches away from my pap", I would map out his pap and illustrate to him what the drill pattern would look like 6 3/4 away from his pap. Then he'll say, "oh, that's not what I expected". Remember, he did not request the pin to be 6 3/4 away from his pap.

Yes, I know, it's generic. But really, it's not that complex.


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 Post subject: Re: grip center from pap
 Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 2:43 am Post Number: #13 Post
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TomaHawk wrote:
If someone comes into the shop and says: "Put the center of my grip 6 3/4 inches away from my pap", I would map out his pap and illustrate to him what the drill pattern would look like 6 3/4 away from his pap. Then he'll say, "oh, that's not what I expected". Remember, he did not request the pin to be 6 3/4 away from his pap.

Yes, I know, it's generic. But really, it's not that complex.


OK, his PAP coordinates are 5" over and 1/2" up. Map that out so his PAP is 6 3/4" from grip center and let us know what it looks like. -- JohnP


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 Post subject: Re: grip center from pap
 Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 7:02 pm Post Number: #14 Post
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First, of the three pictured, which measuring tool would the op most likely have used?


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 Post subject: Re: grip center from pap
 Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 11:46 am Post Number: #15 Post
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MegaMav wrote:
Plus your PAP is based on your release and measured in relation to the centerline and midline.
Your PAP is an initial stable point based on your release. It cannot be modified independent of release.


What Mav said. The PAP is bowler specific, and it cannot be moved other than by changing the release.


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 Post subject: Re: grip center from pap
 Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 4:09 pm Post Number: #16 Post
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I've had what would be considered by many, a relatively successful career in the pro shop business. The time frame spans (gosh, time travels so fast) 40 years, most of that time would be spent in one of the world's largest bowling centers. It didn't take long to learn the lesson of a lifetime. Listen and be patient, most of the people I would meet are not professional bowlers. They would never be remotely close. But, some of them are inquisitive. Isn't that how all of us got here?

The op asked a question I've heard many times, it is the same one I asked my ball driller a long time ago. It rang a bell. The difference? The op was specific in terms of measurement. When I asked the question, I said, what would happen if we put the grip here? No numbers, we didn't even know numbers existed.

The original question was basic: What would happen if I put the center of my grip 6 3/4 away from my pap? He also gave us a little more information, he has a ball with a 5 1/2 pin, the pin is located near the middle finger. Using that information as I interpreted it, the photos represent the information given by the op. One photo shows the layout in his description of the ball he presently has. The other is a layout 6 3/4 away from his pap.


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 Post subject: Re: grip center from pap
 Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 9:40 pm Post Number: #17 Post
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TomaHawk wrote:
The original question was basic: What would happen if I put the center of my grip 6 3/4 away from my pap? He also gave us a little more information, he has a ball with a 5 1/2 pin, the pin is located near the middle finger. Using that information as I interpreted it, the photos represent the information given by the op. One photo shows the layout in his description of the ball he presently has. The other is a layout 6 3/4 away from his pap.

Attachments

With your interpretation ~70-3.5-30 with the grip moved 6-3/4" from his PAP from the existing ball that has an approximate layout of ~75-5.5-40. It makes more sense if you don't assume the PAP location on the ball follows the grip location.

Linknblue wrote:
I wanting to know how the ball will roll if I was to do this layout 6 3/4 from my pap. My first track is about 9 inches away from my pap looking at the track and pin relationship so I'm still 2 1/4 inches from my first track at 6 3/4. Am I mixing things up?

What you have to realize is no matter where you put your grip your PAP and track location is basically always going to be the same locations from your grip center. The PAP and track follow your grip so you dont have to worry about putting your grip too close to your track.

As far as how it will roll depends on what kind of balls, Symmetrical or Asymmetrical.

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PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
65* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: grip center from pap
 Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 1:41 am Post Number: #18 Post
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I think he really wanted an idea of how a "70-3.5-30" would roll.

So, whaddya think?


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 Post subject: Re: grip center from pap
 Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 2:47 am Post Number: #19 Post
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TomaHawk wrote:
I think he really wanted an idea of how a "70-3.5-30" would roll.

So, whaddya think?

First I would need to know what kind of balls (existing 75-5.5-40 and proposed ball for the 70-3.5-30) Secondly I would need to know release specs. Then I could give an informed evaluation.

Generally speaking about the 70-3.5-30 ...
Symmetrical: Benchmark reaction for a rev dominant bowler with med tilt and higher rotation.
Asymmetrical : Benchmark reaction for slightly speed dominant bowler with low tilt/rotation.

Generally speaking about the 75-5.5-40...
Symmetrical: Low flare long arcing hook shape for a rev dominant Low Tilt bowler
Asymmetrical: Short angular hook zone very forward rolling Benchmark reaction for a Very Rev dominant bowler with High Tilt and Rotation.

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PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
65* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: grip center from pap
 Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 5:19 am Post Number: #20 Post
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The PAP coordinates are relative to the center of grip; if you move the grip, the PAP moves with it.
Dual angle layouts are meaningless without a firm grasp :roll: of this basic concept.

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