Looking For No Thumb Layout Help
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Looking For No Thumb Layout Help
Hi I'm new to the forum and I'm looking for advice on one hand no thumb (think Tom Daugherty) layouts. I've read and re-read the documents on the Wiki about dual angle layouts. Everything seems to make sense until I get into the ratios. I'm going to be drilling a new Storm Code Red in the next week. I'd like to find a benchmark layout that I can put on future balls that will allow the attributes of the ball to do the work vs. drilling it weak/strong.
My Specs:
PAP 6 1/4 Over *Edit* Measured using grip midline on 2 balls with thumb holes *Edit*
Speed ~17 MPH At Release
Rev Rate ~ 400
Initial Axis Rotation ~55*
Initial Axis Tilt ~3*
Surface Synthetic
Lane Conditions THS
Slightly Rev Dominate
On most of my balls I track very close to the middle finger and thumb and on my Timeless I'll clip the middle finger and thumb sometimes into the midlane. That ball is drilled 65*x6 1/4"x40*. I assume this is because the Pin to PAP distance is not allowing the ball to flare off the middle finger. Below are the current balls and layouts I use. I did not pick any of these layouts a local pro shop did and I only found out my PAP for the first time today. I purchased an armadillo and quarter scale in order to reverse engineer my layouts.
Timeless 65*x6 1/4"x40* "Drilled for Length" - Local Pro Shop
Code Black 55*x6"x40* Favorite Ball Motion of Current Arsenal/Layouts
Sure Lock 60*x5 1/8"x25* Very Strong Seems to Transition Extremely Fast and Requires Me to Play Very Deep.
I've also seen suggestions regarding finger pitches reverse/lateral for no thumb bowlers. Do those suggestions apply to any drilling layout?
Any input or help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
My Specs:
PAP 6 1/4 Over *Edit* Measured using grip midline on 2 balls with thumb holes *Edit*
Speed ~17 MPH At Release
Rev Rate ~ 400
Initial Axis Rotation ~55*
Initial Axis Tilt ~3*
Surface Synthetic
Lane Conditions THS
Slightly Rev Dominate
On most of my balls I track very close to the middle finger and thumb and on my Timeless I'll clip the middle finger and thumb sometimes into the midlane. That ball is drilled 65*x6 1/4"x40*. I assume this is because the Pin to PAP distance is not allowing the ball to flare off the middle finger. Below are the current balls and layouts I use. I did not pick any of these layouts a local pro shop did and I only found out my PAP for the first time today. I purchased an armadillo and quarter scale in order to reverse engineer my layouts.
Timeless 65*x6 1/4"x40* "Drilled for Length" - Local Pro Shop
Code Black 55*x6"x40* Favorite Ball Motion of Current Arsenal/Layouts
Sure Lock 60*x5 1/8"x25* Very Strong Seems to Transition Extremely Fast and Requires Me to Play Very Deep.
I've also seen suggestions regarding finger pitches reverse/lateral for no thumb bowlers. Do those suggestions apply to any drilling layout?
Any input or help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Last edited by 440HEMI on June 11th, 2017, 10:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Looking For No Thumb Layout Help
Mo doesn't like going longer than 4 3/4" Pin to Pap for players who track close to the finger holes. You can pull the flares onto the middle finger sometimes. Most no thumbers that I know, like the fingers to be pitched with quite a bit of reverse. A lot of ball drillers put very large Pin to Pap distances on the balls to kill the flare and get more pop on the back. I have had more luck with no thumbers by using very short pin to Pap distances to kill the flare. You have to keep the pin in the safe zone above the line from the PAP to the finger holes.440HEMI wrote:Hi I'm new to the forum and I'm looking for advice on one hand no thumb (think Tom Daugherty) layouts. I've read and re-read the documents on the Wiki about dual angle layouts. Everything seems to make sense until I get into the ratios. I'm going to be drilling a new Storm Code Red in the next week. I'd like to find a benchmark layout that I can put on future balls that will allow the attributes of the ball to do the work vs. drilling it weak/strong.
My Specs:
PAP 6 1/4 Over *Edit* Measured using grip midline on 2 balls with thumb holes *Edit*
Speed ~17 MPH At Release
Rev Rate ~ 400
Initial Axis Rotation ~55*
Initial Axis Tilt ~3*
Surface Synthetic
Lane Conditions THS
Slightly Rev Dominate
On most of my balls I track very close to the middle finger and thumb and on my Timeless I'll clip the ring finger and thumb sometimes into the midlane. That ball is drilled 65*x6 1/4"x40*. I assume this is because the Pin to PAP distance is not allowing the ball to flare off the ring finger. Below are the current balls and layouts I use. I did not pick any of these layouts a local pro shop did and I only found out my PAP for the first time today. I purchased an armadillo and quarter scale in order to reverse engineer my layouts.
Timeless 65*x6 1/4"x40* "Drilled for Length" - Local Pro Shop
Code Black 55*x6"x40* Favorite Ball Motion of Current Arsenal/Layouts
Sure Lock 60*x5 1/8"x25* Very Strong Seems to Transition Extremely Fast and Requires Me to Play Very Deep.
I've also seen suggestions regarding finger pitches reverse/lateral for no thumb bowlers. Do those suggestions apply to any drilling layout?
Any input or help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
- EricHartwell
- Trusted Source
- Posts: 4080
- Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
- Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
- Speed: 16 off hand
- Rev Rate: 330
- Axis Tilt: 12
- Axis Rotation: 45
- Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
- Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
- Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer
- Location: Michigan
Re: Looking For No Thumb Layout Help
Welcome to BowlingChat
What side of the fingers is your initial track?
With 3* of tilt and PAP measured from 3 hole grip center your initial track should run right through the middle of your middle finger.
I always suggest rechecking your PAP on every ball drilled, ball dynamics can affect your PAP.
There is a little bit of confusion here. At first you mention tracking close to your middle finger then you talk about clipping the ring finger.440HEMI wrote:On most of my balls I track very close to the middle finger and thumb and on my Timeless I'll clip the ring finger and thumb sometimes into the midlane. That ball is drilled 65*x6 1/4"x40*. I assume this is because the Pin to PAP distance is not allowing the ball to flare off the ring finger. Below are the current balls and layouts I use. I did not pick any of these layouts a local pro shop did and I only found out my PAP for the first time today. I purchased an armadillo and quarter scale in order to reverse engineer my layouts.
What side of the fingers is your initial track?
With 3* of tilt and PAP measured from 3 hole grip center your initial track should run right through the middle of your middle finger.
I always suggest rechecking your PAP on every ball drilled, ball dynamics can affect your PAP.
Eric Hartwell
Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
Re: Looking For No Thumb Layout Help
I edited the original post. My first post was mistaken, my issue is tracking over a portion of the middle finger hole not the ring. You are correct, my initial track runs right through the middle of the middle finger. My PAP was measured using a non-flaring plastic ball. I then applied the PAP to my 3 flaring balls and verified it by filming the release and the first ~10 feet or so.EricHartwell wrote:Welcome to BowlingChat
There is a little bit of confusion here. At first you mention tracking close to your middle finger then you talk about clipping the ring finger.
What side of the fingers is your initial track?
With 3* of tilt and PAP measured from 3 hole grip center your initial track should run right through the middle of your middle finger.
I always suggest rechecking your PAP on every ball drilled, ball dynamics can affect your PAP.
- EricHartwell
- Trusted Source
- Posts: 4080
- Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
- Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
- Speed: 16 off hand
- Rev Rate: 330
- Axis Tilt: 12
- Axis Rotation: 45
- Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
- Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
- Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer
- Location: Michigan
Re: Looking For No Thumb Layout Help
Asymmetrical Benchmark 110* totals 2.75:1 Ratio 80-3-30 P2 balance hole no thumbhole.440HEMI wrote:Hi I'm new to the forum and I'm looking for advice on one hand no thumb (think Tom Daugherty) layouts. I've read and re-read the documents on the Wiki about dual angle layouts. Everything seems to make sense until I get into the ratios. I'm going to be drilling a new Storm Code Red in the next week. I'd like to find a benchmark layout that I can put on future balls that will allow the attributes of the ball to do the work vs. drilling it weak/strong.
My Specs:
PAP 6 1/4 Over *Edit* Measured using grip midline on 2 balls with thumb holes *Edit*
Speed ~17 MPH At Release
Rev Rate ~ 400
Initial Axis Rotation ~55*
Initial Axis Tilt ~3*
Surface Synthetic
Lane Conditions THS
Slightly Rev Dominate
Eric Hartwell
Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
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- Preferred Company: Radical
- Location: San Juan, PR
Re: Looking For No Thumb Layout Help
Asymmetrical balls seem to be good choice for rev dominant low tilt players, too bad they are mostly very aggressive coverstock with highly dynamic cores.
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Kegel Certified Pro Shop Operator
Free agent
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Re: Looking For No Thumb Layout Help
I drilled 2 Timelesses for my son (2 hander no thumb). one I put a 4 3/4" Pin to pap with a balance hole just to the right of where his thumb would have been (right handed) and another one with a 1 1/2" Pin to Pap no hole. They play off each other perfectly. Probably 5 boards more hook with the hole. both have Val angles of about 40* if i remember right. Not extremely flippy considering his rev dominance. He
loves them both.
My other son is 2 handed and very rev dominant (slower speed) and he prefers asymmetrical balls with a motion hole. has several of them.
loves them both.
My other son is 2 handed and very rev dominant (slower speed) and he prefers asymmetrical balls with a motion hole. has several of them.
Re: Looking For No Thumb Layout Help
Thanks for the advice. The drilling and VAL angles make sense to me now. Why do you recommend a 3" pin to PAP?EricHartwell wrote: Asymmetrical Benchmark 110* totals 2.75:1 Ratio 80-3-30 P2 balance hole no thumbhole.
How would these numbers change if I were to have the Timeless redrilled?
- EricHartwell
- Trusted Source
- Posts: 4080
- Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
- Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
- Speed: 16 off hand
- Rev Rate: 330
- Axis Tilt: 12
- Axis Rotation: 45
- Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
- Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
- Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer
- Location: Michigan
Re: Looking For No Thumb Layout Help
The 3" pin to PAP because of your low tilt.440HEMI wrote:Thanks for the advice. The drilling and VAL angles make sense to me now. Why do you recommend a 3" pin to PAP?
How would these numbers change if I were to have the Timeless redrilled?
90-4.5-25 no balance hole for the Timeless. This would be a good layout for a shorter pin to Cg ball. It will hook less and have a smoother motion making for a good complement to the Code Red with a Benchmark drilling.
Eric Hartwell
Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
Re: Looking For No Thumb Layout Help
Eric, thanks for the help. Had the Code Red drilled today. Ball rolls smooth as silk with good length and great continuation. Best of all no clipping the middle finger hole. I had my PSO use Mo's recommended pitches to increase tilt and that seems to have worked. I'm tracking about a 1/4" from the middle finger hole now.EricHartwell wrote: The 3" pin to PAP because of your low tilt.
90-4.5-25 no balance hole for the Timeless. This would be a good layout for a shorter pin to Cg ball. It will hook less and have a smoother motion making for a good complement to the Code Red with a Benchmark drilling.
I'm going to have the Timeless drilled to your recommendations next week. Do you think I should consider re-drilling the CB or Sure Lock?
- EricHartwell
- Trusted Source
- Posts: 4080
- Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
- Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
- Speed: 16 off hand
- Rev Rate: 330
- Axis Tilt: 12
- Axis Rotation: 45
- Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
- Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
- Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer
- Location: Michigan
Re: Looking For No Thumb Layout Help
I would keep the Sure Lock for the deep inside line and you like the Code Black's ball motion the best right now. When it is not longer your favorite then I would redrill it. You might want to try the new pitches on it in the mean time.
Eric Hartwell
Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
Re: Looking For No Thumb Layout Help
Thanks again. I went ahead and had my PSO plug the thumb on the Code Black, add a P2 balance hole, and change the finger pitches. Threw it today on the burn and it performed well where the Code Red was too strong/early. The Timeless is now under the knife moving to the benchmark sym layout you suggested.EricHartwell wrote:I would keep the Sure Lock for the deep inside line and you like the Code Black's ball motion the best right now. When it is not longer your favorite then I would redrill it. You might want to try the new pitches on it in the mean time.