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 Post subject: Want to drill second Rack Attack Solid
 Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:17 am Post Number: #1 Post
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Hello Eric, guys, I am currently using a Rack Attack Solid exclusively in league (THS 38' med volume, Brunswick synthetic, very clean backends). I love the ball so much as it really suits my specs so when I found out they discontinued it I went ahead and got another one.

I am currently getting more into sport patterns (WTBA 2017) as I am coaching my daughter for Jr Gold. I wanted to drill the other Rack Attack to do the following things:
-play Short Sport straight (outside of 10)
-play the twig (currently practicing this with plastic)
-play stright up the track on my THS league as with the other Rack Attack I can't seem to stand right of 20 due to my slow speed and high revs.

Was thinking this would be possible if I drill it pin under RF (which will probably end up around 70*VAL and set the PSA with my third hole around 55* drilling angle??? (Two handed/no thumb). Finally tune it with more surface for short sport and less surface for the 38' THS.

What is your opinion on this Eric? Can I make this Rack Attack work like a urethane for me or should I just buy a Brunswick BTU or a Storm Pitch Black or similar?

Current Rack Attack is 55*x4 1/4"x55* pin in RF, drill angle set by a 3"x3/4" hole 6 3/4" from the pin

Specs:
Right hander
-14 to 15 mph monitor
-revs in the low to mid 400s
-tilt 10* last time I checked
-PAP 3 1/2" x 2 1/2" down from center of bridge or/same as 4 5/8" x 1/4" up if I used a 4" span

Ball is around 2" pin-cg and has 2.6 oz top weight


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 Post subject: Re: Want to drill second Rack Attack Solid
 Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:28 pm Post Number: #2 Post
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Since the rack attack doesn't have the scoop core so you will be drilling in the top of the core anyway and you drill the balls with the balance hole 6 3/4 the val angle doesn't really matter I think.

If you would drill the balance hole like 4" from the pin or even skip it you would get a much lower diff ball and less assymetry with more of a seperation from your other ball while still setting the psa

I'd go for the true urethane and not the btu if that is te reaction you are looking for. For me the pearl urethamea have been much better on ths and good on sport while the solid urethanes have been great on sport but not good on ths


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 Post subject: Re: Want to drill second Rack Attack Solid
 Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:29 am Post Number: #3 Post
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You didn't mention your rotation in your release specs. Do you vary your rotation?

When I model layouts from the bridge it is different than from the 4" span measurement. The PAP locations are not the same.
For discussion I will be using the PAP as measured from the bridge. Do verify it is correct. Measure across first then down.

The Rack Attack is going to be stronger/earlier than urethane. Then to put a 3" pin to PAP (pin under ring finger) will read the friction hard and make a strong move at the break point. The 70* VAL is going to help smooth it out but I don't think it will be enough.

For something less aggressive than your pin in the Ring finger you could go pin in the Middle finger 60-4.5-70

I would reserve the pin under the ring finger for a true urethane.

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 Post subject: Re: Want to drill second Rack Attack Solid
 Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:51 am Post Number: #4 Post
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Hello Eric,

I originally measured my PAP with a 4" span without drilling the thumbhole (if that makes sense).

From the center of a 4" span my PAP is 4 5/8" accross and 1/4" up

Could you give me the equivalent of that coordinate if measured from the center of the bridge?

With the PAP above (4 5/8" x 1/4" using a pseudo 4" span) the layout of my Rack Attack is
55 x 4 1/4 x 55 (if I measured correctly)

Could you please verify if the above layout sounds accurate?


If so, would pin in the MF and a 60* drilling angle still be your recommendation for the angles I want to play? Will this ball work for these lines of lane play? What surface for Sport, what surface for THS?

You are always very willing to give layout recommendations and I thank you very much for that.


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 Post subject: Re: Want to drill second Rack Attack Solid
 Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:02 am Post Number: #5 Post
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Working backwards from your 4" span PAP it is 4 3/4" over 7/8" down from the bridge.
55-4.25-80 is pin in the ring finger as measured from the bridge and the balance hole is kicked out to the right from where a normal thumbhole would be.

Image

60-5.25-85 would be pin in the Middle finger and a very low flare layout on the Rack attack

Image

The low flare layout is basically taking the core out of the game. Tuning with surface and playing with carrydown like we did back in the 80's and 90's. With such a low flare set up I don't think the drilling angle is going to matter much.
I would start with 1000 grit and adjust from there.

I wish I could say with confidence that it would work as you intend , it will play straighter and longer. I was exploring a weaker option than your pin in the ring finger.

I think the urethane option with more flare would be a better choice.

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 Post subject: Re: Want to drill second Rack Attack Solid
 Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:23 am Post Number: #6 Post
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Thank you Eric, Wow I didn't realize I had such a large VAL angle in my current Rack Attack. I can really open up the lanes with it on THS and it has a very smooth reaction.

Ok so if I were to stay in the Brunswick/Radical Family then I should probably go for a BTU, urethane reaction minus the carrydown.

That Rack Attack could probably see a better use.

So for say a 4-5 ball sport arsenal (without counting my plastic) to play the WTBA patterns staying in the Brunswick/Radical family here's what I have:
-my current Rack Attack 55 x 4.25 x 80
-the undrilled Rack Attack with a 2" pin to cg and 2.6 oz of top weight
-an undrilled Soul Solid with a 2"-3" pin and similar top weight
-definitely looking at the BTU

What pattern would you fit these into (short, med, long) and what layouts would you recommend?

What other balls from the Brunswick/Radical family would I be missing in this arsenal, for what length of pattern and what layout should I use?

Edit:
Another question: What happens when the VAL angle exceeds 70*? Why is this not recommended?


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 Post subject: Re: Want to drill second Rack Attack Solid
 Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:50 am Post Number: #7 Post
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Ignore at will but I have tried most of the urethanes, I've owned a pitch blue, purple hammer, sumo, btu, new blue hammer and have tried the pitch black, boo yah and new black hammer. There is nothing urethane like about the BTU and carrydown is minimal with these newer urethanes because they flare unlike in the old days.

With that said I would look into the crow by visionary https://www.visionarybowling.com/ball/the-crow
much stronger core than in most of the urethanes and a true urethane reaction without worries of carrydown because of the flare (the btu does not absorb oil so fast that the same issue with the bowtie doesn't occur and the diffs are low so it will always carry something down as a low flare ball)

If you want to use it on THS as well I'd go for the pearl urethanes. If you elect to go the BTU way I'd buy maroon scotch brite to sand it with the get anything like a urethane reaction out of the ball.

I would also suggest that you search for the reasoning behind the VAL angle. As I understand it the VAL angle controls the after drilling differential and intermediate differential. The smaller the VAL angle the higher the diffs but more importantly the higher the intermediate differential which increases the diff ratio which controls the hook zone. The VAL angle accomplishes this because the smaller the VAL angle, the closer the thumbhole is to 6 3/4 from the pin and therefore it works as a much stronger balance hole.

So when drilling all your balance holes 6 3/4 from the pin you are in effect negating the effect the VAL angle you had drawn on the ball and my guess is it works something like a 20° VAL angle. That would also explain why you can so easily open up the lane with your rack attack since you have basically maxed it out (unless with a bigger or deeper drill) with your choice of balance hole.


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 Post subject: Re: Want to drill second Rack Attack Solid
 Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:55 am Post Number: #8 Post
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gunso wrote:
Since the rack attack doesn't have the scoop core so you will be drilling in the top of the core anyway and you drill the balls with the balance hole 6 3/4 the val angle doesn't really matter I think.

If you would drill the balance hole like 4" from the pin or even skip it you would get a much lower diff ball and less assymetry with more of a seperation from your other ball while still setting the psa



Note: Not a layout guru, but I do have a very True PRO shop at my disposal.

I experimented with a similar solution to Gunso's with an IQ Tour this year. I had an IQ Tour that I loved drilled 50(pin to cg)x5x40. It has truly been the best ball I've ever owned. Multiple 800s, tournament success, yadda yadda. I could play almost any pattern with it.

The only issues I ran into were longer patterns and carry down. I asked my pro shop guy to drill me another one that keeps the same shape but gives me a earlier look. He ended up drilling it 5x40 with a big hole down VAL.

I wasn't sure if it was going to make a big enough difference, but it's given me the best 1-2 combo I've ever had. Literally 99% of 2017, I have used one of those two IQs and just switched to the other if carry was struggling. It's been simple, mindless bowling, and I've ended up with the highest average of my life. Best experiment I ever did.

Just goes to show how effective balance holes are.

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 Post subject: Re: Want to drill second Rack Attack Solid
 Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 12:23 pm Post Number: #9 Post
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Hello Gunso, thank you for the advice. I re read your replies and see what you mean about flare and carry down. You have similar specs to mine so I am listening. Maybe I should start with a pair of urethanes, one pearl and one solid. I have never used the BTU just heard good things about it but I have rolled real urethane. I have a Brunswick Twister which has a pancake core and a Faball Burgundy Hammer that has a core but is only 14 lbs (I currently roll 15 lbs). The Twister has no flare and the Burgundy was too early when I was starting with two hands but my speed was even slower, I had zero tilt and I never adjusted it's surface. Maybe I should try the Burgundy once again and adjust surface if needed just to see how old school urethane reacts with my specs. A pearl urethane also sounds interesting, a friend has the new purple Hammer so I could try that too to see what it does, that's the good thing about bowling without inserting the thumb, you can easily try other people's balls.

Now, about the layouts... ok I understand the VAL angle controls the hook shape and the drilling angle controls the skid phase. By drilling my third hole 6 3/4" from the pin I am defining a strong PSA to have a more precise idea of what the drilling angle is. I also understand the effect the VAL and the size of the P4 on the final RG and Diffs. What I don't understand is how does the 6 3/4" distance of the P4 negates the VAL angle and makes it behave like a smaller VAL angle. Could you please explain this? Also, if I make the P4 larger it will lower the RG and increase the asymmetry (Intermediate diff), correct?


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 Post subject: Re: Want to drill second Rack Attack Solid
 Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:09 pm Post Number: #10 Post
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Interesting Bahshay, maybe I could do a simple 5 ball arsenal with 2 urethanes and two mild reactives (like the rack attacks) all drilled with a smooth arcing VAL and have one of each pair (pair of urethanes, pair of reactives) roll earlier than the other adjusting the 3rd hole position. The urethanes to play outside and the reactives to play multiple angles more inside. Adjust surface to match pattern...


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 Post subject: Re: Want to drill second Rack Attack Solid
 Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:25 pm Post Number: #11 Post
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TonyPR wrote:
Hello Gunso, thank you for the advice. I re read your replies and see what you mean about flare and carry down. You have similar specs to mine so I am listening. Maybe I should start with a pair of urethanes, one pearl and one solid. I have never used the BTU just heard good things about it but I have rolled real urethane. I have a Brunswick Twister which has a pancake core and a Faball Burgundy Hammer that has a core but is only 14 lbs (I currently roll 15 lbs). The Twister has no flare and the Burgundy was too early when I was starting with two hands but my speed was even slower, I had zero tilt and I never adjusted it's surface. Maybe I should try the Burgundy once again and adjust surface if needed just to see how old school urethane reacts with my specs. A pearl urethane also sounds interesting, a friend has the new purple Hammer so I could try that too to see what it does, that's the good thing about bowling without inserting the thumb, you can easily try other people's balls.

Now, about the layouts... ok I understand the VAL angle controls the hook shape and the drilling angle controls the skid phase. By drilling my third hole 6 3/4" from the pin I am defining a strong PSA to have a more precise idea of what the drilling angle is. I also understand the effect the VAL and the size of the P4 on the final RG and Diffs. What I don't understand is how does the 6 3/4" distance of the P4 negates the VAL angle and makes it behave like a smaller VAL angle. Could you please explain this? Also, if I make the P4 larger it will lower the RG and increase the asymmetry (Intermediate diff), correct?


Regarding the Faball being too early is exactly what you want when playing a short sport pattern.

The easiest way of explaining the VAL angle effect is when looking at an asymmetric bowling ball. When you drill the pin above the ringers (low val angle), the thumbhole is usually close to the 6 3/4 from the pin, close to the PSA marker. It works as a strong balance hole. The thumbhole is increasing the total diff (high rg axis - low rg axis) and the int diff. The Int diff usually raises more in relation to total differential resulting in a larger diff ratio (intermediate differential / total differential)

When drilling the pin below fingers, the end result for a thumb in bowler would be a PSA marking around 2 inches below the thumb or so and therefore the thumbhole would not act as a strong balance hole. Resulting in lower total differential and a lower intermediate differential.

When drilling all the balance holes 6 3/4 from the pin you are, no matter if it is pin up or down, in my opinion, effectively raising the high rg axis in the same way as a pin up drilling does for a thumb in bowler and therefore increasing the total diffs and intermediate differential of the ball as much as you can.

When drilling the scoop core technology it would not work this way as the scoop technology is based on the fingers missing the top of the core when drilling pin up and therefore not raising the low rg axis (pin) leaving the total diffs intact. (This is not true of most bowling balls without the scoop technology as you are always drilling in the top of the core, no matter if it is pin up or down, therefore raising the low rg axis resulting in lower total diffs. When drilling pin down with the scoop technology you are hitting the top of the core as in most other cores.

Article from Mo about diff ratio http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/images ... Nov_10.pdf

Article from Mo about the scoop technology http://radicalbowling.com/uploads/downl ... nology.pdf

Notice how pin up drillings the finger holes don't hit the core and the thumbhole hits the core 6 3/4 from the pin approx. Notice also how pin down drillings the finger holes hit the core and a large part of the thumbhole hits the scoop and therefore not the core.

I think my thoughts came out the right way :)


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 Post subject: Re: Want to drill second Rack Attack Solid
 Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:35 pm Post Number: #12 Post
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The problem with pin down layouts is the location of the bowtie. The lower the pin is the lower the bowtie will be and the risk of the ball flaring over the fingerholes. There is more of a risk with higher flaring balls and high track bowlers.
The 70* VAL angle is a basic guideline to keep drillers from putting something out that is not flare safe. It doesn't mean you cant use a larger VAL angle. But it a risk.
I would try it on an old ball before putting it on a brand new one.

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 Post subject: Re: Want to drill second Rack Attack Solid
 Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 5:06 pm Post Number: #13 Post
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Gunso, I understand what you say and it makes sense. So taking the my Rack Attack for example the 55* hole 6 3/4" from the pin has more effect than the 80* VAL, that's why if I wanted a stronger reaction I would just make the balance hole larger (raise diffs even more) and if I wanted it tamer I could a) drill the fingers deeper or b) plug the balance hole and drill it around where a thumbhole would be on an average span (4"-4.5" span), correct?



Eric, you say my Rack Attack has an 80* VAL angle, it's a low flaring core so maybe that's why it is still flare safe to me, might not work on other balls so I have to watch out.

I wanted to stay in the Brunswick family because I am very familiar with their products but since I am considering urethane maybe I should be open to other brands. Hammer seems to have a few. For my sport arsenal if I were to use 4 balls and a plastic, considering my specs, would you say it could be a good idea to have two urethanes and two mild reactives with similar pin to paps and VAL angles but different balance holes like I mentioned above?

Oh and yes I can change my axis rotation from 0* for spares to around 30* for up the boards to 45*-60* when I open my angles (these measurements are just eyeballing but you get the idea).


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 Post subject: Re: Want to drill second Rack Attack Solid
 Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:17 pm Post Number: #14 Post
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TonyPR wrote:
Eric, you say my Rack Attack has an 80* VAL angle, it's a low flaring core so maybe that's why it is still flare safe to me, might not work on other balls so I have to watch out.

Take note as to where the bowtie is, this will give you an idea of how far you could possibly put the pin below the fingers.

Excellent point made by Gunso about the 6 3/4" distance from the pin for the balance hole.

The VAL is different when you measure from the bridge vs. the center of a three hole grip. This makes the VAL angles larger measured from the bridge. So what you are used to seeing for dual angles are quite different. You are exploring layouts that do not have documented support. You need to pay attention to your ball motion to create a system that will give you predictable results going forward. The experience you gain from this will be of interest to many. Please do post your results and opinions of new layouts that you try.

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 Post subject: Re: Want to drill second Rack Attack Solid
 Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:10 pm Post Number: #15 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:

The VAL is different when you measure from the bridge vs. the center of a three hole grip. This makes the VAL angles larger measured from the bridge. So what you are used to seeing for dual angles are quite different. You are exploring layouts that do not have documented support. You need to pay attention to your ball motion to create a system that will give you predictable results going forward. The experience you gain from this will be of interest to many. Please do post your results and opinions of new layouts that you try.


I don't think the val angles are different. It's a measurent between the pin-pap-and val line which are not predicted on where the center of grip is


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 Post subject: Re: Want to drill second Rack Attack Solid
 Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:23 pm Post Number: #16 Post
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Will do Eric. Now, if I were to use for example pin in the RF and drill a 15/16 hole right where a 4" span thumb hole would be then wouldn't it be the same as if I take a one hander thumb in team mate's ball drilled exactly the same way and throw it (asuming it's legal for both center of span and center of bridge), if by some wierd chance we both had the same PAP coordinate, wouldn't it be the same say
80 x 4.25 x 55 for both? Asuming we both had exactly the same stats, wouldn't it roll the same?

I understand that if I drill the third hole way far away than where a thumbhole would be then it would be unknown territory but what if the third hole was somewhere where a thumbhole would actually be?

By definition the VAL is a line parallel to the bowlers grip centerline and perpendicular to the midline.


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 Post subject: Re: Want to drill second Rack Attack Solid
 Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:35 pm Post Number: #17 Post
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If the measurement from the pin through the thumbhole correlates to a 80 degree drill angle than you are correct


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 Post subject: Re: Want to drill second Rack Attack Solid
 Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:37 am Post Number: #18 Post
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What I am trying to explain is the difference between the different grip centers do not yield the same results for the dual angle measurements due to the Fact the VAL is not the same. While by definition the VAL is parallel to the grip centerline but in spherical geometry those lines are not parallel they intersect at the points 6 3/4" above and below the grip midline. The VAL from the 3 hole grip is not at 90* to the midline of the 2 finger grip. In this example of the generic 4" grip span VAL is actually at 60* to the 2 hole midline.

It is about 2 different perspectives.
One from the bridge and the other from the center of the 3 hole span.

3 hole 80-4.25-55
Image

2 hole 80-4.25-55
Image

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 Post subject: Re: Want to drill second Rack Attack Solid
 Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:48 am Post Number: #19 Post
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Interesting so it's more about perspective in relation to the VAL. I only threw 80* drilling angle randomly, as I can see by your model that would only be possible with a hole in the negative side (not flare safe) or an Asymmetric ball with a defined undrilled PSA. It would be cool if we could use an equivalence but there is an infinite number of spans from say 3" conventional to Andre the Giant's span. A center of grip in that perspective would be a negative 31/32 span for those who use inserts. Maybe if we had a standard like the 4" we are using then we could have an equivalency. So technically what we are saying is that the same layout may have different names (angle numbers) depending from where the PAP is measured, correct?


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 Post subject: Re: Want to drill second Rack Attack Solid
 Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:40 am Post Number: #20 Post
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TonyPR wrote:
So technically what we are saying is that the same layout may have different names (angle numbers) depending from where the PAP is measured, correct?

Yes, and to what I was getting at is that 30* difference in these examples is going to be that perspective difference for you. That is going to change the guidelines that were set up for the standard 3 hole grip.

I am figuring this out as we go through these exercises. I don't have the personal experience of the no thumb release to pull from as I do with the standard one hand delivery. I am doing my best to apply the knowledge I do have to your situation and help you develop predictable results.

TonyPR wrote:
Hello Gunso, thank you for the advice. I re read your replies and see what you mean about flare and carry down. You have similar specs to mine so I am listening.

While Gunso is a no thumber his specs do differ from yours, He is over-rolled with negative 10* tilt. He tracks to the right of the fingers. Working with him has presented a whole different set of challenges and understandings. His layouts need to flare the opposite way or control where the bowtie is located so as not to flare over the finger holes. He has done alot of experimenting to find layouts that are no where near the standard guidelines. Intentionally breaking those "rules" to get positive results. So I definitely appreciate his input.

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