dual angle thumb

Which layout is right for me?

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RedRiverCoach
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dual angle thumb

Post by RedRiverCoach »

As many of you know on the other site the dual angle thumb was discussed quite a bit.
My question is what does Mo and our panel of experts think of this drilling,I personally believe I have the most comfortable grip I've ever had and have no problems with tracking over the thumb.just curios about the Pros and Cons of this method
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Re: dual angle thumb

Post by Mo Pinel »

RedRiverCoach wrote:As many of you know on the other site the dual angle thumb was discussed quite a bit.
My question is what does Mo and our panel of experts think of this drilling,I personally believe I have the most comfortable grip I've ever had and have no problems with tracking over the thumb.just curios about the Pros and Cons of this method
Please give the people a more accurate description of the Dual Angle Thumb so they can follow this discussion. I believe you are referring to pitch. John, this one is yours.
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RedRiverCoach
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Positive Axis Point: 4 3/4 over 3/8 up
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Re: dual angle thumb

Post by RedRiverCoach »

Here is the procedure:



1 Layout you pin placement position and mark your center of grip line

2 Measure half of your span length down the center of gripline.

3 Draw a perpendicular line on the spot that you found in step 2

4 Measure 3/16 left (for a right hander) from the center of grip line and draw a vertical line next to the center of grip line.

5 That is your thump position.

6 From the top of your thump place layout the 2 45º angular lines.

7 Now measure your spans to where you have to drill the fingers.

This procedure was given to me by Bas and has been very helpful
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RedRiverCoach
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Joined: January 28th, 2010, 11:27 pm
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Positive Axis Point: 4 3/4 over 3/8 up
Speed: 17.5
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Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Prodigy
Medium Oil Ball: awesome finish
Light Oil Ball: Reign
Preferred Company: Morich
Location: Texas

Re: dual angle thumb

Post by RedRiverCoach »

hope this is not against the rules but this pic describes this the best
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RevZiLLa
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Re: dual angle thumb

Post by RevZiLLa »

RedRiverCoach wrote:hope this is not against the rules but this pic describes this the best

The red lines should be at the top of the thumb hole instead of at the center of it. I posted that pic before I understood Bas.
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Re: dual angle thumb

Post by fufu »

RedRiverCoach wrote:hope this is not against the rules but this pic describes this the best
I'm the one that did the video. I've found it isn't always 45*. It is the angle of the thumb oval that works for me. My oval is 55* so my two marks are 55 and 35. I've t-grip pitches and this setup side by side. My observations are:

I clear the 55/35 better.
I tend to get "around" the 55/35 more, which isn't great on some conditions.
I like the way the ball sits on my hand with the 55/35.

Next up is the offset. I'll try that this week!
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Re: dual angle thumb

Post by RevZiLLa »

fufu wrote: I'm the one that did the video. I've found it isn't always 45*. It is the angle of the thumb oval that works for me. My oval is 55* so my two marks are 55 and 35. I've t-grip pitches and this setup side by side. My observations are:

I clear the 55/35 better.
I tend to get "around" the 55/35 more, which isn't great on some conditions.
I like the way the ball sits on my hand with the 55/35.

Next up is the offset. I'll try that this week!
Angle of the thumb oval makes more sense to me.


Considering the spherical geometry, once you have the pitches and spans right, I don't think the frame of reference from which you measure them matters.

Mo fitted me up and his fitting system was spot on...but his judgment and patience can not be packaged. I think fit is the MOST important thing your driller can get right for you.
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RedRiverCoach
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Re: dual angle thumb

Post by RedRiverCoach »

I posted this hoping to get the pros and cons,I have made a couple of changes to the dual angle myself which I posted about on BBE but I never read a reply from Mo ,MathIsTruth or PurduePaul.I have read variations of this going back to the late 70's but everyone said it was an unreliable technique.
With all of the improvements on ball motion,core dynamics and coverstocks I felt it was relevant to also look at the proper fit of the tool at hand.Our bowling ball.
As a youth coach and lately an independent Pro-Shop operator my goal is to give the kids the best possible fit that I can.If there is something about this fit that can cause them problems in the future I would like to find out now, so with all the great minds here at bowlingchat I felt that this is a great place to find out.
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Re: dual angle thumb

Post by Mo Pinel »

RedRiverCoach wrote:I posted this hoping to get the pros and cons,I have made a couple of changes to the dual angle myself which I posted about on BBE but I never read a reply from Mo ,MathIsTruth or PurduePaul.I have read variations of this going back to the late 70's but everyone said it was an unreliable technique.
With all of the improvements on ball motion,core dynamics and coverstocks I felt it was relevant to also look at the proper fit of the tool at hand.Our bowling ball.
As a youth coach and lately an independent Pro-Shop operator my goal is to give the kids the best possible fit that I can.If there is something about this fit that can cause them problems in the future I would like to find out now, so with all the great minds here at bowlingchat I felt that this is a great place to find out.
Ball Spinner has the experience with this subject. He is most qualified to discuss this. Let's let him handle this discussion.
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Re: dual angle thumb

Post by ballspinner »

I explained this technique to my friend Bas Menken at Bowl Expo in 2008. My thought was to measure the forward and reverse thumb pitch perpendicular to the oval angle instead of off of the centerline of the grip. It isn't always 45 degrees unless that is the measured oval angle of the thumb.

If you place the fingers in to the drilled holes of a ball and then try to simulate more reverse pitch while keeping the tip of the thumb on the centerline, you will notice the hand twists causing undue stress on the hand. If you lay out the ball like in the picture above and try the same thing with the fingers in the holes you will be able to add as much forward or reverse thumb pitch as you will ever need without twisting the hand.

I have been using this technique for many years with people who are always searching for that magic grip or feel with very good results. Without fail the customer reports that the ball feels more comfortable during the swing, the rev rate increases (the amount of increase depends on the athleticism of the player), and most times the player will be able to change the rotation to a higher degree (more versatility).

As far as the 3/16" offset is concerned - I do not like that terminology because if I drill the fingers first and am given two span values, I cannot "offset" and still hit the spans. The term offset scares people in our industry. I like to do thumb the way I just explained and then go back and CLT the fingers to nail the finger pitches.

Make sure you are using a modern fit for this technique. Spans that are too long will not see the benefit. Also, use less bevel than you normally do to start. Most people will clear the thumb much faster so less bevel is needed.
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Re: dual angle thumb

Post by fufu »

ballspinner wrote: Make sure you are using a modern fit for this technique. Spans that are too long will not see the benefit. Also, use less bevel than you normally do to start. Most people will clear the thumb much faster so less bevel is needed.
I agree. I tried this on a longer than "normal" span with POOR results. That span was stretched alittle by todays standards and it wasn't pretty.
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Re: dual angle thumb

Post by Mo Pinel »

ballspinner wrote:I explained this technique to my friend Bas Menken at Bowl Expo in 2008. My thought was to measure the forward and reverse thumb pitch perpendicular to the oval angle instead of off of the centerline of the grip. It isn't always 45 degrees unless that is the measured oval angle of the thumb.

If you place the fingers in to the drilled holes of a ball and then try to simulate more reverse pitch while keeping the tip of the thumb on the centerline, you will notice the hand twists causing undue stress on the hand. If you lay out the ball like in the picture above and try the same thing with the fingers in the holes you will be able to add as much forward or reverse thumb pitch as you will ever need without twisting the hand.

I have been using this technique for many years with people who are always searching for that magic grip or feel with very good results. Without fail the customer reports that the ball feels more comfortable during the swing, the rev rate increases (the amount of increase depends on the athleticism of the player), and most times the player will be able to change the rotation to a higher degree (more versatility).

As far as the 3/16" offset is concerned - I do not like that terminology because if I drill the fingers first and am given two span values, I cannot "offset" and still hit the spans. The term offset scares people in our industry. I like to do thumb the way I just explained and then go back and CLT the fingers to nail the finger pitches.

Make sure you are using a modern fit for this technique. Spans that are too long will not see the benefit. Also, use less bevel than you normally do to start. Most people will clear the thumb much faster so less bevel is needed.
Ladies and Gentlemen,

His name is ballspinner, known to many as John Jameson. He is a valuable part of the Advanced IBPSIA experience. Now you know why he is part of the team. The finishing touch of using the CLT for the finger pitches ties it all to the function of the hand. GREAT JOB. JOHN! I like it. We'll add it to IBPSIA HOTS this year and you'll teach it.
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Re: dual angle thumb

Post by fufu »

John, send you a message on CLT. I'd like to know how to do it.

~A
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