New here, would like opinion on urethane layout

Which layout is right for me?

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KYDave
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New here, would like opinion on urethane layout

Post by KYDave »

Hello all

Stumbled upon this site during a google search and really liked this section and decided to join.

I've decided to add a urethane ball to my arsenal and unsure of what layout would work best for me.
I have an understanding of dual angles, but I haven't owned a urethane since the C300 Wrecking Ball and back then I knew nothing at all about layouts. I know more now, but not sure how to even attack a urethane layout.

I know I would most likely like a high drill angle. Pin position I'm unsure due to it already being a low flare ball, and Val angle I have no clue.

About me:

What hand you bowl with right
Speed 16-17 avg monitor
Rev Rate variable 350-400
Initial Axis Rotation variable typically 45-60
Initial Axis Tilt low. did my best to measure and looks like about 8-10
What surface you want the ball for AMF synthetic, Bruns Anvilane
What lane condition you are bowling on most of the time 36' 20mL, 42' 28mL
Do you think you are speed or revolutions dominate? probably on rev side

If it helps, the layout I really like on my Motiv Ghost is 80x4 5/8x35. Early strong asym. C300 Impulse is 55x5 1/2x40 medium sym.

Also my pap is 5 x 1 3/16 up

I appreciate the help!

Dave
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EricHartwell
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Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer
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Re: New here, would like opinion on urethane layout

Post by EricHartwell »

What urethane ball are you looking at getting?
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PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
KYDave
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Re: New here, would like opinion on urethane layout

Post by KYDave »

EricHartwell wrote:What urethane ball are you looking at getting?
I got too caught up in trying to give as many details as possible about me and kind of forgot that.

Hammer Black.

Thanks Eric, glad you saw this post.
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Re: New here, would like opinion on urethane layout

Post by gunso »

I would go for the double thumb.

Black hammer diff is only 0.015 and I want my urethanes flaring as much as they can.
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EricHartwell
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Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer
Location: Michigan

Re: New here, would like opinion on urethane layout

Post by EricHartwell »

gunso wrote:I would go for the double thumb.

Black hammer diff is only 0.015 and I want my urethanes flaring as much as they can.
If you are lucky enough to get a pin out long enough, 4+ inches.

PBA plastic ball drilling. xx-4-45 for a ball with a short pin to Cg.

wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index.php?title=PBA_Plastic_Ball_Layout
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PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
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Re: New here, would like opinion on urethane layout

Post by TonyPR »

Have you considered the Brunswick BTU, urethane motion with a reactive coverstock. Why do you want a urethane ball, just curious? Is it for short sport patterns?
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Re: New here, would like opinion on urethane layout

Post by KYDave »

Eric-

Not sure what pin length I'm getting. Apparently the black Hammer is on the edge of extinction and there was only 1 left at the supplier. According to EBI there is a massive backorder on these. Also talks of maybe stopping production. BTW I was hoping you would enlighten me on what ratios I am. Been trying to figure that out so I can better make choices on layouts in the future. Say something like a Track Tundra for instance.

Tony-

This is for a new league I'm bowling on this summer with 34-36' "medium" oil. Not sure of the pattern, but I can tell you there is a lot of oil up front and a lot of friction down lane. He wouldn't give me much more than that. Not sure if he didn't know or didn't want to tell me. I had a lot of trouble keeping it on the right side of the headpin with anything I own. Also looking to join a sport practice league. And partially to expand my arsenal and curiosity of how urethane will do for me these days. Been a long time since I have and my game has changed quite a bit since then. And to top it off getting a good deal.

I appreciate the responses!
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EricHartwell
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Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer
Location: Michigan

Re: New here, would like opinion on urethane layout

Post by EricHartwell »

KYDave wrote:BTW I was hoping you would enlighten me on what ratios I am. Been trying to figure that out so I can better make choices on layouts in the future. Say something like a Track Tundra for instance.
KYDave wrote:What hand you bowl with right
Speed 16-17 avg monitor
Rev Rate variable 350-400
Initial Axis Rotation variable typically 45-60
Initial Axis Tilt low. did my best to measure and looks like about 8-10
What surface you want the ball for AMF synthetic, Bruns Anvilane
What lane condition you are bowling on most of the time 36' 20mL, 42' 28mL
Do you think you are speed or revolutions dominate? probably on rev side

If it helps, the layout I really like on my Motiv Ghost is 80x4 5/8x35. Early strong asym. C300 Impulse is 55x5 1/2x40 medium sym.

Also my pap is 5 x 1 3/16 up
Asymmetrical Benchmark 105* total, 2:1 Ratio
Totally Strong .......................... 60-4.5-25
Midlane ................................... 50-4-35
Benchmark ............................. 70-3.25-35
Long and Strong ...................... 90-3.25-35
Control .................................. 70-3.25-55
Low flare ................................ 90-2-35

Symmetrical
Totally Strong .......................... 65-3.5-20
Midlane ................................... 55-4-30 balance hole 1.5" below midline on the VAL
Benchmark ............................. 75-4.25-30
Long and Strong ...................... pin next to ring finger Motion Hole
Control .................................. 75-4.25-50 adjust to put the pin in the ring finger
Low flare ................................ 80-5-30

For the symmetrical low differential Track Tundra I would go with the Control pin in the ring finger layout.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
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Re: New here, would like opinion on urethane layout

Post by KYDave »

Thanks Eric!

I'm going to work that backwards in hopes of understanding it more. I tried before but without knowing the answer it was hard to say if I was doing it right. Add this for rotation, subtract this for tilt, that was the main part of my confusion.

I do most of my own layouts, and have just learned over time what works for me as a starting point. Then adjust this or that to make it do more or less of an action based on characteristics of the ball. I think this might be a bit better haha.

I appreciate your help!
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EricHartwell
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Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer
Location: Michigan

Re: New here, would like opinion on urethane layout

Post by EricHartwell »

Have you found the BowlingChat University. A great place to learn the dual angle system.
There is a button at the top of the page Image

It is right next to the Wiki button Image where there is a wealth of bowling knowledge.

You mentioned adjusting this or that based on the characteristics of the ball. You still need to take into consideration the balls characteristics. Then use the dual angles to make those adjustments for predictable results.

The arsenal lists I give are a starting point that defines a range of layouts that are tailored to your specific release. By description you can now use these layouts to make/predict a ball to do more or less of an action when setting it up. Study the BCU and Wiki and you will be able to understand better the adjustments you are making instead of the old trial and error method. There are many knowledgeable people here to answer any questions that may arise.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
TonyPR
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Re: New here, would like opinion on urethane layout

Post by TonyPR »

At 34'-36' you have 26'-24' of dry lane after the oil ends. You probably want to start playing this like a short sport pattern. If we were to use the rule: exit board=pattern length-31 we would be looking at somewhere around the 3 or 5 board. That's around where you want your ball exiting the pattern. You want a ball that reads early and then has a smooth controllable roll to the pocket. There are two schools of thought here:
(This information was copy-pasted from the wiki)
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... ng_Layouts" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

2 schools of thought.
1) On shorter patterns use more continuation to control friction. Sometimes you will see those with weaker shelled balls, like urethane on Cheetah, but sometimes wont carry well due to decreased entry angle or the ball still hooking when it hits the pocket (which deflects). On longer patterns use a sharp breakpoint to cover as many boards as quickly as possible.

2) On shorter patterns use less continuation, burn tilt and rotation quickly and allow the ball to roll forward to control the transition between oil and friction. On long patterns get the tilt and rotation to burn faster, and wait for the pattern to open up before using balls that have more hook and a sharper breakpoint.

Number 2 is what we will be looking for, and I'll explain why. When you use school for thought number 1, you're likely to get into trouble with the ball hooking when it hits the pins as it wont have time to roll forward and carry will suffer. Also, when friction becomes more and more as the pattern breaks down, continuation balls will hook more rather than roll faster. Your angles will get deeper, quicker and your moves to compensate may occur too soon, and the friction window to hit, when playing deeper will be too small and slight misses will become more amplified down lane.

When using school of thought number 2, ball reaction is simplified and will use a 2 phase approach. Use these sport layout balls when playing on the fresh, until the hook-set angle takes you away from the pocket and entry angle becomes flat. Then use slightly more continuous, or angular balls when the pattern breaks down and the pattern has more miss room. These balls are not meant for inside out play, like on house shots.
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Re: New here, would like opinion on urethane layout

Post by KYDave »

Thanks for the info Tony!

Should be here tomorrow and get it punched saturday.

Talked to my pso and coach. They are recommending either an old school stacked pin or something along the lines of 70x3.75x30.

Thoughts? My coach owns several of these balls and pretty familiar with them and me. Pso isn't a fan of pba layout on anything other than plastic with a pancake.
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Re: New here, would like opinion on urethane layout

Post by TonyPR »

Make friends with the lane man and try to find as much info as you can about the pattern. Start playing it straight without swinging it and see your reaction, make sure you see skid-hook-roll, 10 or 8 at the arrows to 3-5 at 34' is a good starting point, release more up the back of the ball to try to get it to roll early, short patterns are all about control, use surface to get it to roll early, 500 grit is very common. The layout you mentioned is close to what Eric recommended as your symmetrical benchmark but with a strong pin to pap which I believe is good because of the low diff of that core. If you go with that layout have the driller position the cg so that you have the option of a hole 2-2.5" down from the PAP on your VAL just in case surface is not enough to get it to roll early. Please report back.
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Re: New here, would like opinion on urethane layout

Post by KYDave »

Tony-

I asked the lane man and he told me uh i have no idea I just run the thing lol. Will report back on how it all works out on the drilling.

Eric-

I have a C300 Full Throttle sym with pin next to ring. I'd like to experiment with the motion hole. Have been reading a lot in the wiki. Are you talking like a p4 hole or am I missing what you are talking about?
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Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer
Location: Michigan

Re: New here, would like opinion on urethane layout

Post by EricHartwell »

The Motion Hole is on the bottom of the ball opposite the grip.

http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... ctions.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/images ... page_4.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
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Re: New here, would like opinion on urethane layout

Post by KYDave »

Thank you Eric.

I'm going to give that a go on the Full Throttle and see what I think.

My other pso uses his own methods for layout. I would tell him what I want and he would drill it using his way. I'm not sure what the dual angles are and they were also drilled using my old pap. I'm going to borrow the prosect and work it backwards to see what they really are.

I appreciate the help. This forum is awesome.
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Re: New here, would like opinion on urethane layout

Post by KYDave »

Updates-

Haven't thrown the C300 Full Throttle in a while and had outgrown the thumb and span was a tad short. Decided to kill 2 stones with 1 bird and converted it over to switch grips like my other balls. I wanted to roll it again before I drilled the Motion hole. For being 14 yrs old this ball is still super sweet.

Drilling on the black Hammer. With input from all of us, and the pso and coach being familiar with my style it was decided upon to drill it with pin above the bridge with CG towards palm with the option of a balance hole later if need be. I rolled a couple games on their lanes (wood amf 43' 30mL) and wow this ball hooks a lot more than I expected. It was actually crossing over on my first few throws and still carried well. A few 9 counts later I decided to quit being scared of moving left and got lined up a little better. This ball is so smooth and again, made a bigger move down lane than expected. It even sounds different going thru the pins. Overall very happy with it so far.

I'm going tomorrow to my league center and see how it does there on the short oil.

Thanks again for everyone's help. I will post back with a follow up.
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Re: New here, would like opinion on urethane layout

Post by KYDave »

Update 2

Really happy with this ball. It was the medium pattern today but still really smooth. Blended the wet/dry really well and had miss room left and right with it. Altho mostly left haha. Hopefully will have the drier back ends next weekend to test.
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