Hi all. First, the particulars:
What hand you bowl with: Right
Speed: 14.5 (monitor)
Rev Rate: 350
Initial Axis Rotation: 70
Initial Axis Tilt: 27
What surface you want the ball for: synthetic
What lane condition you are bowling on most of the time: medium to medium-dry
Do you think you are speed or revolutions dominate?: rev dominant
Just purchased a Roto Grip No Rules Pearl and am wondering what layout would be good. I currently bowl in two house. First one, is first shift, very tight, 7-out is out of bounds. I use a Roto Grip No Rules Solid 55*x4x25* either up 10 or with a small 12-9 belly. Ball reads the lanes great, solid midlane, strong but not over-snappy back end. My other league... where I want to use the No Rules Pearl is 2nd shift. Hi rev players in first shift, so though the house puts down a lot of oil, it's down to either medium or medium dry by the time I get on them. I'm usually throwing a MoRich Leverage Pearl 40*x5x30* highly polished. I either play 16-10 with a nice continuous strong arc, or 10-4, reading midlane decently and then a strong snap. Problem I'm finding is that my carry tends to be terrible, with the ball hitting very soft. I've tried the No Rules Solid on the condition. The backend is much stronger and my carry goes way up; problem is the ball is far too strong for the condition and I have to move much further left than I am comfortable and any errors cause the ball to over react.
I'm wondering if, with the polished surface of the No Rules Pearl, if I use the same layout as the Solid, since I really like the reaction, whether that might be the simplest way to drill. Or should I alter the length, backend, or combination?
Also, if anyone can suggest a good benchmark layout for me with a different ball that I may purchase in the near future, that would be great.
Thanks in advance for any suggestions.
Layout Advice
Moderator: Moderators
- EricHartwell
- Trusted Source
- Posts: 4080
- Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
- Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
- Speed: 16 off hand
- Rev Rate: 330
- Axis Tilt: 12
- Axis Rotation: 45
- Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
- Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
- Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer
- Location: Michigan
Re: Layout Advice
Yes you are rev dominant when you compare speed to revs but once you figure n tilt and rotation you are matched.lpc300 wrote:What hand you bowl with: Right
Speed: 14.5 (monitor)
Rev Rate: 350
Initial Axis Rotation: 70
Initial Axis Tilt: 27
What surface you want the ball for: synthetic
What lane condition you are bowling on most of the time: medium to medium-dry
Do you think you are speed or revolutions dominate?: rev dominant
Asymmetrical Benchmark 95* totals 1:1.75 Ratio 35-4.5-60
As you can see your Benchmark layout is nothing like what you are currently using.
Your benchmark is going to put the pin close to your fingers, What is your PAP measurement?
Eric Hartwell
Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
Re: Layout Advice
That's exactly what I was thinking when I saw this post last night Eric...but I figured I'd wait to see what you had to say.
I think your no rules solid works with the higher ratio layout simply because it is a very strong ball being used on a broke down medium oil pattern. If you had that same layout on a weaker ball designed for those oil conditions I think you would have problems with it going too long, it wouldn't read the midlane and with your high rotation/tilt it would not transition soon enough so it may not even make it into the roll phase before the pins.
If you want to play straighter on your second league then a strong ball with a low flare layout might work for you.
I think your no rules solid works with the higher ratio layout simply because it is a very strong ball being used on a broke down medium oil pattern. If you had that same layout on a weaker ball designed for those oil conditions I think you would have problems with it going too long, it wouldn't read the midlane and with your high rotation/tilt it would not transition soon enough so it may not even make it into the roll phase before the pins.
If you want to play straighter on your second league then a strong ball with a low flare layout might work for you.
PAP 5x1 1/8
15.5mph off hand
260-270rev rate
7* tilt
70* rotation
15.5mph off hand
260-270rev rate
7* tilt
70* rotation
Re: Layout Advice
I very much appreciate the replies, but stand by. The original PSO who did my PAP and Axis Tilt, did so without checking on a ball that had active oil rings on it. I was curious and another PSO checked it a couple of days ago with just acquired oil rings and got different numbers. My original PAP was calculated at 4 1/2 over 5/8 up with an axis tilt of 27. The numbers the new PSO got were a PAP of 3 1/8 over 1 1/8 up and an axis tilt of 13. Same ball. Very different. I do not believe I am throwing the ball that differently, in fact, I don't believe I've altered my release at all. Because I have access to an armadillo and a quarter scale, I rechecked the specs, myself, and got the same numbers. I also put some tape on both PAPs to see, when I bowled, which remained stable during the front part of the lane. It was the second set of measurements (3 1/8 by 1 1/8).
So, this changes a lot. I remeasured the layout on my No Rules with these “new” numbers. Turns out it is 45* x 3 x 20*. With the “new” numbers, how do my overall specs, my benchmark, and how I might drill the new No Rules Pearl change?
So, this changes a lot. I remeasured the layout on my No Rules with these “new” numbers. Turns out it is 45* x 3 x 20*. With the “new” numbers, how do my overall specs, my benchmark, and how I might drill the new No Rules Pearl change?
- EricHartwell
- Trusted Source
- Posts: 4080
- Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
- Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
- Speed: 16 off hand
- Rev Rate: 330
- Axis Tilt: 12
- Axis Rotation: 45
- Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
- Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
- Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer
- Location: Michigan
Re: Layout Advice
Asymmetrical Benchmark 105* total 1.75:1 ratio .... 65-4-40lpc300 wrote:I very much appreciate the replies, but stand by. The original PSO who did my PAP and Axis Tilt, did so without checking on a ball that had active oil rings on it. I was curious and another PSO checked it a couple of days ago with just acquired oil rings and got different numbers. My original PAP was calculated at 4 1/2 over 5/8 up with an axis tilt of 27. The numbers the new PSO got were a PAP of 3 1/8 over 1 1/8 up and an axis tilt of 13. Same ball. Very different. I do not believe I am throwing the ball that differently, in fact, I don't believe I've altered my release at all. Because I have access to an armadillo and a quarter scale, I rechecked the specs, myself, and got the same numbers. I also put some tape on both PAPs to see, when I bowled, which remained stable during the front part of the lane. It was the second set of measurements (3 1/8 by 1 1/8).
So, this changes a lot. I remeasured the layout on my No Rules with these “new” numbers. Turns out it is 45* x 3 x 20*. With the “new” numbers, how do my overall specs, my benchmark, and how I might drill the new No Rules Pearl change?
Totally Strong ....................... 60-4.5-25
Midlane ............................... 50-4.5-35
Benchmark .......................... 65-4-40
Long and Strong ................... 85-4-40 difficult to get statically legal Cg will end up on negative side of the grip
Control ............................... 65-4-60 adjust to put pin in the middle finger
Low Flare ............................ 75-2.5-50 pin in the ring finger
Symmetrical
Totally Strong ....................... 65-3.5-20
Midlane ............................... 55-3.5-30
Benchmark .......................... 70-4-35
Long and Strong ................... ******* The location to your PAP makes for to small of drilling angles
Control ............................... 70-4-55 pin in the middle finger
Low Flare ............................ 65-4.75-40 Drilling angle is measure to the thumb Cg drilling angle less than 55*
For a Strong reaction I would go with the Benchmark 65-4-40
Controlled reaction 70-4-55 pin in the middle finger
I would redrill the No Rules Solid for your Benchmark and the Pearl for Control. This would make for a really good 2 ball set.
Eric Hartwell
Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
Re: Layout Advice
Isn't the No Rules Solid working well? Why plug and change what works?
My two cents: if the No Rules carries great on the other shot as well but just forces you further left than you're comfortable with, it sounds like the best solution is practicing to get yourself more comfortable standing left. I can't imagine you go from playing up 10 to lofting the gutter, so there should be plenty of room, and at 350 you certainly have the rev rate and speed to rev match to support moving left.
Ultimately, the people that really kill house shots understand what ball they have is going to carry the most, and then they make that ball work. It sounds like you have that ball already. You just don't want to move where it would take to use it. Playing in other people's burn rather than moving around it can work too (and sometimes is unavoidable), but that's a tricky game.
That's not to talk you out of the pearl, sometimes you truly will need less ball. Eric's layouts for a second ball are obviously good for that,, but developing the versatility to move in will help you far more than a layout can.
My two cents: if the No Rules carries great on the other shot as well but just forces you further left than you're comfortable with, it sounds like the best solution is practicing to get yourself more comfortable standing left. I can't imagine you go from playing up 10 to lofting the gutter, so there should be plenty of room, and at 350 you certainly have the rev rate and speed to rev match to support moving left.
Ultimately, the people that really kill house shots understand what ball they have is going to carry the most, and then they make that ball work. It sounds like you have that ball already. You just don't want to move where it would take to use it. Playing in other people's burn rather than moving around it can work too (and sometimes is unavoidable), but that's a tricky game.
That's not to talk you out of the pearl, sometimes you truly will need less ball. Eric's layouts for a second ball are obviously good for that,, but developing the versatility to move in will help you far more than a layout can.
PAP- 4 1/8 over, 3/4 up
Speed - 17-18 monitor
Rev Rate - 475
Rotation - 65
Tilt - 12
Speed - 17-18 monitor
Rev Rate - 475
Rotation - 65
Tilt - 12