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 Post subject: New layout?
 Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2017 5:01 am Post Number: #1 Post
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Hi everyone! My first post^^

Here are my info:

Speed: 14-15MPH (monitor)
Rev: 250-275
Axis rotation: 65
Axis tilt: 25
Wood lane
Medium to Heavy (38 to 41 feet oil)
Speed dominate

Most of my balls are 4-1/2 to 5 from PAP.
I bowl in 4 different alleys (2 wood/2 synthetic)
Most of my balls have 800 grit sand. Some 2000 grit.
I tend to bowl better with 500 to 800 grit solid then 2000 grit and up pearl balls.
I have 4 pearl balls but rarely score well with them (They are all 4-1/2 to 5 also)
The pearl balls seems to skid too far down the lane for me.
I'm decent with hybrids.

What would be a good layout for me in medium-heavy lane condition?
Little analysis on my spec and which are I should improve the first.

Thank you

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PAP 4.5" up 1/2"
65* rotation
25* tilt
250-275 rev rate
14-15 mph


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 Post subject: Re: New layout?
 Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 1:52 am Post Number: #2 Post
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jih wrote:
Hi everyone! My first post^^

Here are my info:

Speed: 14-15MPH (monitor)
Rev: 250-275
Axis rotation: 65
Axis tilt: 25
Wood lane
Medium to Heavy (38 to 41 feet oil)
Speed dominate

Most of my balls are 4-1/2 to 5 from PAP.
I bowl in 4 different alleys (2 wood/2 synthetic)
Most of my balls have 800 grit sand. Some 2000 grit.
I tend to bowl better with 500 to 800 grit solid then 2000 grit and up pearl balls.
I have 4 pearl balls but rarely score well with them (They are all 4-1/2 to 5 also)
The pearl balls seems to skid too far down the lane for me.
I'm decent with hybrids.

What would be a good layout for me in medium-heavy lane condition?
Little analysis on my spec and which are I should improve the first.

Thank you

Welcome to BowlingChat

Your high tilt and slightly high rotation really make you Speed dominant.

What balls do you have and can you describe your layouts in Dual angles?
Otherwise pin location, distance to PAP, any balance holes and if it is Asymmetrical where the Mass Bias is located.

You mention pin to PAP of 4 1/2" to 5", If these are Symmetric balls that is a big part of your problem. These are lower flare layouts better for low tilt or high rev bowlers.

Long Pin to PAP on Asymmetrical balls would match up much better for you.
3" pin to PAP on a Symmetrical would roll much better for you.

As you already know dull surface is your friend and it is OK to sand a Pearl dull.
In fact in your case it will be the recommendation.

Asymmetrical Layouts Sweetspot 80* Total 1:1.75 Ratio
Totally Strong.................... 25-5-35
Midlane ........................... 15-4.5-45
Benchmark ...................... 30-4.5-50
Long and Strong ............... 45-4.5-55
Control ........................... 30-4.5-70

Symmetrical Layouts (drill angle to Cg)
Totally Strong ............. Double Thumb
Midlane ..................... Not really an option for Symmetricals you basically end up with a Benchmark
Benchmark ................ 60-3-30 Bal hole 2" below midline on the VAL
Long and Strong ......... 70-3-30 No balance hole
Control ..................... 45-3.5-65 Bal hole 2" below midline on the VAL

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Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
65* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: New layout?
 Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 4:06 am Post Number: #3 Post
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First of all thank you for your reply.
The listing order is the order that I purchased.

1) Brutal Nightmare (15lbs): 40x4.5x50 BH 2" right of PAP
Wrist injury forced me to go down from 16lbs to 15lbs. This is the first time
I bowled with 15lbs. For 3 years I hated this ball because it would go too long
all the time. Only recently I sanded to 500 grits with light polish I am doing
much better. Still this is my least favorite ball.

2) Octane (14lbs) 55x4.52x50 BH @P3
I went down to 14lb because my wrist was still hurting.
OOB, I didn't like the ball at all because it would skid too far down the lane.
I sanded to 2000 grit and it became my benchmark ball.

3) Pink Panther (14lbs): 50x4.5x40
This was a used ball but it still is my favorite ball.
The surface is at 800 grit. I can bowl almost all condition with this one.
But this ball is about to die soon. I need to find a ball similar to this one.

4) Hammer Black Widow Legend (14lbs): 55x5x80
This is the first time I tried a different layout. It has midlane layout.
I have no clue with this ball. It goes too long in oil condition.
Only in certain lane condition, I'm not sure which that is, I seem to
bowl well with this ball. It seems very angular at the backend so
it is difficult to control.

5) Bloody Cross (14lbs): 50x3-3/8x50
For first time I tried stacked layout. I like the stronger backend.
However, as I was told that lordfield balls tend to go very long,
this ball goes too long also.

Since moving down to 14lbs balls, I seem to have better control and
I can sort of change the ball speed. However, I seem to leave tons
of 10 pins.

I think oil is my enemy. I probably need a stronger ball with stronger layout.
Good news is my Jackal LE is here. Can you recommend a layout for me?

Thanks so much for taking your time to read.

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Right Handed
PAP 4.5" up 1/2"
65* rotation
25* tilt
250-275 rev rate
14-15 mph


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 Post subject: Re: New layout?
 Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 4:51 am Post Number: #4 Post
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Oil isn't your enemy, your high tilt is. I cant stress this enough Surface, Surface, Surface. You are plagued by 10 pins because your ball is not getting into a roll. It is still trying to hook as it enters the pocket. I can surmise that your ball is deflecting in the pocket and traveling towards the 9 pin.

The Hammer Black Widow, The totals are too high for anything but dry lanes.

The Pink Panther with the 800 grit surface, not an optimal layout but the surface is what helps.

Octane, 55x4.52x50 BH @P3, the P3 made this ball Asymmetric and it did made it as close as you can get to your Asym Long and Strong layout, But the Drilling angle is a little too high not letting it actually be a true Long and Strong, more like a longer and Strong. Again the dull surface is what you needed to help match it up to you.

Bloody Cross Probably the closest to optimal layout in your collection. Get a dull surface on it and put a balance hole 2" below your grip midline on the VAL to get it started up sooner so it doesn't go so long.

The Jackal LE., I would put the Benchmark 30-4.5-50 on it and take the surface down to 1000 grit.
Is the Cg in line with the pin and Mass bias mark?
What is the pin to Cg distance and top weight?
Also what is your PAP measurement?

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Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
65* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: New layout?
 Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 12:23 pm Post Number: #5 Post
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My PAP is 4.5" & up 1/2"

My Jackal LE is at pro shop. I haven't seen it yet.
Would I be able to use this benchmark 30-4/5-50 w/ 1000 grit on sport pattern lane?
If not, can you recommend one ball for the sport pattern (40' US Open pattern)?
None of my ball seem to be good for the sport pattern.
I have to lower my speed farther to make it get into the roll.

Thank you...

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Right Handed
PAP 4.5" up 1/2"
65* rotation
25* tilt
250-275 rev rate
14-15 mph


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 Post subject: Re: New layout?
 Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 5:32 pm Post Number: #6 Post
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The Jackal with your benchmark will work on the sport pattern but it will do better once the lanes open up.

I suggest 20-5-40 on a strong asym for a ball stronger than your Benchmark.

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Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
65* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: New layout?
 Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 9:16 am Post Number: #7 Post
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Hi Eric,

Since our PAPs are very similar, can you please upload the picture of your benchmark ball?

I want to have general idea what it is suppose to look like.

Thank you!

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Right Handed
PAP 4.5" up 1/2"
65* rotation
25* tilt
250-275 rev rate
14-15 mph


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 Post subject: Re: New layout?
 Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:26 pm Post Number: #8 Post
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Just because our PAPs are the same doesnt make our Benchmarks the same. They are very much different. I will see what I can do tonight to get you a visual of what your Benchmark looks like.

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Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
65* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: New layout?
 Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:55 pm Post Number: #9 Post
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Attachment:
jih Benchmark.pdf

I didn't know your grip span so the layout may need to be adjusted based on your grip rather than mine, but it will basically be a Pin in the Ring finger layout.

Unless you have a really long pin to Cg ball you will use a balance hole on your axis to balance out any extra side weight.


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

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Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
65* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: New layout?
 Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 8:51 pm Post Number: #10 Post
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Hi Eric,

As always, your inputs are greatly appreciated.


"The Jackal LE., I would put the Benchmark 30-4.5-50 on it and take the surface down to 1000 grit."

I was finally able to get LE drilled. With OOB surface, first 3 weeks, I had 745, 723, and 730 playing out side at 2nd arrow. Previously my highest series was 720 and bowled 700 series only 3 times. I wanted to move inside and took your advise and tried the surface down to 1000 grit. The problem I encounter was that the skid was too short and the ball started hooking too soon. So I polished the ball hoping I would get more skid. Well, to make the story short... I completely lost the control of the ball. So I wanted to go back to OOB condition and sand it back to 3000 grit, but I could not get back to the reaction I had it from the beginning.

Here are couple issues I have with this ball.
1) The ball is too angular for me.
2) Too many ringing 10s and I am leaving so many 7 pins also.

Maybe I need more time to get use to the ball but so far I am struggling so much I don't know what to do with LE. I still average around 200 with this ball. I guess my expectations were too high from the beginning. I would take any suggestions.

My real question is that I am thinking about purchasing Quantum classic, Fire Pearl or Forest Green.
Among those 3 balls, which want would you suggest and which layout?
Should I get classic and use same my benchmark layout? or should I go with Forest Green with stronger layout?

Thanks

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Right Handed
PAP 4.5" up 1/2"
65* rotation
25* tilt
250-275 rev rate
14-15 mph


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 Post subject: Re: New layout?
 Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 11:36 pm Post Number: #11 Post
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The illusive OOB condition. I wouldn't give up on trying to find a surface that matches up.

jih wrote:
My real question is that I am thinking about purchasing Quantum classic, Fire Pearl or Forest Green.
Among those 3 balls, which want would you suggest and which layout?
Should I get classic and use same my benchmark layout? or should I go with Forest Green with stronger layout?

I would go for the Forest Green with the Benchmark drilling.... 60-3-30 Bal hole 2" below midline on the VAL

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Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
65* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16mph off hand


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