Recommendations for layouts

Which layout is right for me?

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VLe
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Recommendations for layouts

Post by VLe »

I’m looking for recommendations for my arsenal build-up. I have one undrilled Radical Primo Solid that is going to be either a benchmark or a control ball for me. Currently I have two drilled reactive balls in my bag that I'm going to use. These were drilled by different PSO’s. Nowadays I have my own drilling gear and re-drilling of the current equipment is not a problem. I just re-evaluated my current delivery specs and then took measurements from the balls.

These are currently the balls that I have:

Radical - Ridiculous
55 x 4 x 70 with balance hole 3,5” down the VAL (and little right)
Very good and controllable movement on shorter patterns. I think that the drilling has smoothened the backend reaction a bit because of the high angle to the VAL. The problem with this ball is that when there is too much oil on the lane, the ball does not reach the roll phase quick enough and there is no carrydown. I’ve tried to play with the surface but haven’t had success on the current condition (attached image). On the previous condition (38 feet THS) this ball was very brutal to the pins.

Am I on the right track here: If I drill the balance hole bigger, It will bring the PSA closer to the balance hole reducing drilling angle and it quickens the overall reaction on the dry. My PSO told me year ago that if I want to make the ball stronger, I can simply drill the BH bigger.

Roto Grip - Hyper Cell Skid
55 x 3 3/8 x 40 with balance hole about an inch to the right from PAP.
This ball goes quite long and then makes a sharp turn. On the previous 38-feet THS the backend reaction was too much (covered too much boards). I had to play very deep or throw straight, otherwise there was always some pins standing. Hitting the pocket was easy but on the current lane condition (attached) the ball has a bit similar problems than Ridiculous – does not quite reach the roll phase. I have to throw the ball slower or straighter and bot of these options are not so easy for me.

Columbia300 – Pure Physics

This couple of years old ball is plugged and my plan is to drill this ball especially for the current lane condition (see the attached picture).

Radical Primo Solid

New&undrilled

As a player I’m mostly a tweener/cranker or sometimes a power player. Delivery specs are below. The spec's are measured Off-hand, from the foul-line. I’m looking for suggestions on a layout for the Columbia (for the specific lane condition) and Primo bowling balls. I can easily throw the ball with more rotation (up to 90 if needed), but lowering it is a bit harder and I'm working on it.
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Re: Recommendations for layouts

Post by VLe »

Forgot to mention that the Columbia Pure Physics and Roto Grip are with assymmetric-cores.

In case my delivery specs update in the future, I will post my current specs here also:

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Re: Recommendations for layouts

Post by EricHartwell »

VLe wrote:Forgot to mention that the Columbia Pure Physics and Roto Grip are with assymmetric-cores.

In case my delivery specs update in the future, I will post my current specs here also:

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Ok, lets start with your Benchmark

95* Total 1.25:1 Ratio 53-4-42

Basically your Hyper Cell Skid is Benchmark
The Ridiculous is Pin down Control

Primo Solid ....... low flare layout 65-5.25-40 Pin above the Bridge

Pure Physics ...... Long and Strong 75-3.5-40 Pin next to ring finger
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Re: Recommendations for layouts

Post by bfweld »

I'll chime in with my 2cents here...feel free to take it with a grain of salt though.

I would suggest taking your hyper cell skid and taking the coverstock down to say 1500 no polish and see if it gives you enough midlane read to then get into the roll phase. It is drilled with your benchmark layout...but personaly I'd say that ball was a poor choice for a benchmark layout for you.

Your ridiculous is having problems because it is a ball that by design gets down the lane fairly well and reads friction hard...it's drilled with too high of a val angle. That layout is like putting 87octane in a top fuel dragster designed to run on alcohol haha, it just takes all the performance out of it. The ridiculous could've been your benchmark layout ball with a roughed up cover. The reason it worked on the shorter house is obviously because of it's shorter pattern...but I'm also guessing that pattern is a bit lighter overall then what you are on now and you were probably playing far enough out into the friction early enough there to get the balls reaction started soon enough to get into a roll.
In saying all of that...it's possible that a combination of increasing it's balance hole size and taking it to a rough dull surface like 2000...just might get it to react soon enough to get into a roll.

I would try the above suggestions before drilling either of the new/undrilled balls you have. No use in drilling new balls to fit into an arsenal of balls that don't work very well for your current conditions.

If you can get the hyper cell skid to work for you by surface adjustment then I would think about plugging and redrilling the ridiculous, the layout for it would depend entirely on what kind of reaction you want from the ball and on what type of lane condition.

Is that Columbia ball a solid coverstock?


Edited for more information and added thoughts.
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Re: Recommendations for layouts

Post by VLe »

Thank you very much for the suggestions.
bfweld wrote: I would suggest taking your hyper cell skid and taking the coverstock down to say 1500 no polish and see if it gives you enough midlane read to then get into the roll phase. It is drilled with your benchmark layout...but personaly I'd say that ball was a poor choice for a benchmark layout for you.
The Hyper Cell may be a bit poor choice, especially with the benchmark drilling it has now. It is couple of years old ball and was drilled by a PSO who did not even took any measurements from my shot back then. Also my delivery specs have gone through a lot of changes since that time and is now pretty stabilized. I'm actually a bit suprised of how close to the benchmark ball the layout is at the moment.

Yesterday I went to throw a league without much expectation to have success. I sanded the Hyper Cell thoroughly with 1000grit abralon (by hand) before throwing and it started to work better. Still it was very close to the point that whether it reaches the rolling phase before pins but I was able to control it. It even returned when the shots went a little bit too right. Still it didn’t destroy the pins but the carrydown was manageable. I had few very low scoring frames because of weak hits but still averaged around 190. At 5th game I changed to the Ridiculous to see how it reacted. Every shot hitted to the pocket and first two shots looked promising hits with strikes. Then it went to lottery and started to make holes and I had to go back to Hyper Cell after a while. The Ridiculous had 2000 grit surface and I quickly sanded it with the 1000grit abralon too, by hand.

For the Ridiculous, the ball is drilled by a very skilled PSO in our country. A person whom even Mo himself has mentioned in this forum some times ago. It is very controllable ball especially in THS. I have had great moments with it in many situations. I think that the placement of the balance hole may have effect on the angle-to-val also. Maybe I’ll try to make the balance hole little bit bigger and re-surface it and see if the ball can be used as control ball as Eric have suggested. Both of these balls have a balance hole of 7/8” diameter (don’t have the depth at the moment but at least 2”).

I have a love-hate relationship with the Hyper Cell. It may be because it is a pearl and a skid-type of ball. I think that I like balls with smoother action more. Would there be any idea if I plug this ball and make it for example a totally strong layout-ball to use only in some very special situations.

bfweld wrote:I would try the above suggestions before drilling either of the new/undrilled balls you have. No use in drilling new balls to fit into an arsenal of balls that don't work very well for your current conditions.

Is that Columbia ball a solid coverstock?
The columbia has a "very agressive reactive resin"-coverstock. I'm not 100% sure but I think it is solid. At least I would treat it so.

In our local bowling center it is hard to drill a bowling ball for the specific condition because it can change between a sport and THS between the tournaments (that last's 1-2months). I also visit other centers. I've had that Primo waiting to be drilled months already and now is the time. :)
EricHartwell wrote:The Ridiculous is Pin down Control

Primo Solid ....... low flare layout 65-5.25-40 Pin above the Bridge
I’m trying to understand about how the low flaring layout on Primo would behave and fit in to my bag? How it differs from the pin-down control layout I have on my Ridiculous? Or would it be more reasonable to make this Primo a benchmark ball and put the low-flaring layout to the Hyper Cell?

In the near future I’m quite certain that I will add one urethane ball to my bag also. It seems to be a rising trend here. Last week I was bowling at the finals on our local tournament. 12 players, 6 games. three guys who was bowling on a same pair of lanes with me was throwing urethane’s with high rev’s. It made the lane reaction a bit interesting for me. I used the Ridiculous and had a moderate success (4th place). :lol:
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Re: Recommendations for layouts

Post by bfweld »

For the Ridiculous, the ball is drilled by a very skilled PSO in our country. A person whom even Mo himself has mentioned in this forum some times ago. It is very controllable ball especially in THS. I have had great moments with it in many situations. I think that the placement of the balance hole may have effect on the angle-to-val also. Maybe I’ll try to make the balance hole little bit bigger and re-surface it and see if the ball can be used as control ball as Eric have suggested. Both of these balls have a balance hole of 7/8” diameter (don’t have the depth at the moment but at least 2”).
I don't doubt his abilities...but that ball was drilled to match specific conditions, hence why you say it worked great on the shorter THS pattern. If it was drilled with a benchmark layout it would be the most versatile ball in your bag because of it's strong cover and strong symmetrical core. It is easily polished for more length and roughed up for earlier read and heavier oil. Have you used it on short sport patterns? I'm curious how it works for you with the current layout on those short patterns...

Since your hyper cell was still borderline usable after taking it to 1000...I'm not completely sure what to tell you. It may work as a low flare...but it could work as a long and strong ball too, Eric may have a better idea on that.

The main issue here isn't layout choice on what you have drilled...it is the overall ball choices.

You have 3 solid coverstock balls which isn't a big problem...but one is a very strong asym and the other two are still relatively strong syms, one of which is an early reading ball(the primo solid) and the other a bit later reading(the ridiculous).

Primo solid-could work well as a benchmark or a control...or maybe even low flare as Eric suggested.
Pure physics-with how strong it is would be a very strong benchmark or very strong control..which might be the ticket for your current THS pattern, and would still be usable on heavier sport patterns.

We'll see what Eric has to say...

But I'll list what my choices would be for each ball if we were starting from scratch.

Ridiculous-benchmark
Primo solid-control
Hyper cell skid-long and strong or low flare
Pure physics-?...it is too close to the primo solid in reaction, just stronger. By design it's best use would be on heavy long THS and sport patterns, so it doesn't really fit in anywhere, it would be drilled as maybe a "totally strong"/midlane type layout for use on those long heavy patterns and wouldn't be too usable anywhere else.

Again feel free to take my advice with a grain of salt and listen to what Eric has to say if he has a much different opinion, I just feel your best bet for having a versatile arsenal would be plugging what you have and choosing wisely what layouts to put on them to match up with the widest variety of conditions.
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Re: Recommendations for layouts

Post by EricHartwell »

It sounds to me like you may be experiencing more oil than you are used to. Not necessarily the 38' THS.

If the Hyper Cell has a couple of years of use on it it is probably in dire need of a de-oiling and full resurfacing. The quick 1000 grit by hand improved the performance, a full resurface will be that much better.

If you have a tendency to increase rotation then I can see where you are having issues getting the ball to get into a complete roll. Maybe you should consider more of a Sport layout for the Pure Physics. Something like 30-5-70 for when there is too much oil for the Ridiculous.

You could do something similar with the Primo and Drill it stronger/earlier than the Hyper Cell 50-3.5-35 balance hole 2" below the midline on the VAL
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Re: Recommendations for layouts

Post by VLe »

EricHartwell wrote:It sounds to me like you may be experiencing more oil than you are used to.
I think you are right on point here! Especially with current gear available, it was hard at first to get a grip on the lanes. I really have to use some hand and force the ball to go straighter. Then it makes nice reaction and has some carrydown too. I have built myself a problem lately that whenever I’m a little late on timing at release, my hand starts to circle the ball causing very high rotation. I’m working on this matter.

One reason on why I bought the Primo in the first place was because I liked the smooth and continuous reaction I felt I was missing. The original idea was that I make it as benchmark and then build the arsenal around it. The pure physics is a ball that I thought to use only on some experiments anymore but since it is quite strong, it may still have a purpose on the arsenal. I do have some other balls too for experimentation and I will get some more balls in the near future when I feel that I have found something useful.

How about this plan to be starting with:

Radical Primo Solid Benchmark 53-4-42
To be used as a starting point on the fresh and a go-to –ball.

Roto Grip Hyper Cell Skid “Benchmark No2.” 55 x 3 3/8 x 40
I leave this layout untouched for now so I can compare the motion to the Primo and then decide on which way to go with this (if any). With surface adjusted and renewed, I thing that this ball could work as long&strong or at least as longer and more angular than the Primo, if needed. Biggest problem on the drier lanes is that the backend is a bit too violent. I could try to put a different kind of balance hole to this ball also before I decide to remove the switchgrip sleeve and plug the holes for re-drill. If I re-drill this ball, it will definitely be my long&strong ball (75-3.5-40).

Radical Ridiculous Pin down Control 55 x 4 x 70 with balance hole 3,5” down the VAL
To be used as a control ball on the drier THS in which it is good at. Maybe I’ll also make the balance hole a little bit bigger

Columbia300 Pure Physics Sport layout 30 x 5 x 70
In case the Ridiculous does not reach the roll-phase soon enough, this can be used instead. A Wet-lane ball that has quick reaction on dry.

The Columbia and Roto grip are not so important balls for me and they are getting old'ish. I will see how they work for the task they are up to. If the results are not what I like, I can always plug and drill them again or even give to some beginner to start with. If there is some recommendations for future balls to fit into my arsenal, I would be glad to hear suggestions. As I mentioned earlier, I am certain that my next ball will be a urethane- ball because of interest, if not for a reason. Then maybe some lower differential reactive ball but I haven’t thought as far yet.
bfweld wrote:Have you used it on short sport patterns? I'm curious how it works for you with the current layout on those short patterns...
The Ridiculous is a very controllable ball with the current layout. As long as the lanes are not too oily it is also very forgivable. I have played with it on many different lanes between 36-43 feet, i think, and this is the first time I'll face this type of problems with it. It may be that all it needs is a resurfacing for the current condition.

After I have my new arsenal of balls ready, I can measure the spin times and share the information for a greater analyze.
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Re: Recommendations for layouts

Post by EricHartwell »

The 53-4-42 is your Asymmetrical Benchmark. For the Symmetrical Benchmark for the Primo 58-4-37 and the drilling angle will need a balance hole pull the PSA away from the thumb. 2" below the midline on the VAL.
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Re: Recommendations for layouts

Post by VLe »

I definitely need a bit weaker ball for drier/shorter conditions. To play little straighter lines and/or adjust when other balls tend to overreact.

Im thinking about Brunswick Rhino pearl because I could get it with amazon gift card that I have. Either that or some urethane ball. Any thoughts on the ball selection/layout?

Just for reference the rhino specs:
RG MAX 2.554, RG MIN 2.524, RG DIFFERENTIAL 0.030, lightbulb core
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Re: Recommendations for layouts

Post by EricHartwell »

For the Rhino I would suggest pin in the ring finger .... 75-4.25-50
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Re: Recommendations for layouts

Post by VLe »

EricHartwell wrote:For the Rhino I would suggest pin in the ring finger .... 75-4.25-50
There was a change in plans. I was able to use the amazon gift card to buy a new ball roller so I ordered another ball elsewhere. As I mentioned earlier I wanted a ball for light/short oil conditions and on totally burned lanes to play little straighter. A somehow reliable ball to use when all other options seem to fail. :)

This ball is on its way:
900global Boo-Yah!
- Coverstock: S20 Solid Urethane
- Finish: 1000 Grit
- Core: Y-Core symmetric
- RG: 2.61 (15# ball)
- Diff: 0.026 (15# ball)

What type of layout would you recommend to use with this ball? Would it be reasonable to drill this ball with something like pin under control-layout? I could maybe redrill the ridiculous at some point.
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Re: Recommendations for layouts

Post by gunso »

VLe wrote:
There was a change in plans. I was able to use the amazon gift card to buy a new ball roller so I ordered another ball elsewhere. As I mentioned earlier I wanted a ball for light/short oil conditions and on totally burned lanes to play little straighter. A somehow reliable ball to use when all other options seem to fail. :)

This ball is on its way:
900global Boo-Yah!
- Coverstock: S20 Solid Urethane
- Finish: 1000 Grit
- Core: Y-Core symmetric
- RG: 2.61 (15# ball)
- Diff: 0.026 (15# ball)

What type of layout would you recommend to use with this ball? Would it be reasonable to drill this ball with something like pin under control-layout? I could maybe redrill the ridiculous at some point.
That urethane ball is not for dry conditions. It reads the friction as early as possible and goes left straight away. Absolutely no push when it's dry. Great for short oily conditions though.

I'd go strong drill for fresh short pattern or ridiclously weak if your plan is burnt conditions
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Re: Recommendations for layouts

Post by VLe »

gunso wrote:That urethane ball is not for dry conditions.
I have no experience with the ball yet but I think that your belief goes against most of what is written about the ball elsewhere. It is meant for drier and/or burnt conditions. The cover reads friction early but is still urethane and should be controllable. I'm not buying this ball for any destroyed glowball-mayhem -condition. We play 6 games here as standard in league so depending on the conditions and bowlers the lanes can get quite burned towards the end. It is also typical to play with group where is multiple bowlers throwing urethane balls with straighter lines and pushing the oil towards the pindeck causing problems to crankers playing in their comfort zone. :)
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Re: Recommendations for layouts

Post by TonyPR »

Cool ball, good for a house shot if and only if you are very rev dominant like myself (375-450 rpms, 14.5-15.5 mph monitor)... it's more of a sports shot ball, great for WTBA Stockholm and such. Reads early, smooth controllable backend, carries down oil...
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Re: Recommendations for layouts

Post by EricHartwell »

EricHartwell wrote:For the Rhino I would suggest pin in the ring finger .... 75-4.25-50
VLe wrote: There was a change in plans. I was able to use the amazon gift card to buy a new ball roller so I ordered another ball elsewhere. As I mentioned earlier I wanted a ball for light/short oil conditions and on totally burned lanes to play little straighter. A somehow reliable ball to use when all other options seem to fail. :)

This ball is on its way:
900global Boo-Yah!
- Coverstock: S20 Solid Urethane
- Finish: 1000 Grit
- Core: Y-Core symmetric
- RG: 2.61 (15# ball)
- Diff: 0.026 (15# ball)

What type of layout would you recommend to use with this ball? Would it be reasonable to drill this ball with something like pin under control-layout? I could maybe redrill the ridiculous at some point.
Judging the strength of a coverstock is probably the most difficult part of choosing a new ball.
I am using the Blue Hammer and I have a hard time believing it is just urethane. I roll 13#, .055 diff. and have been using it still at the factory 4000 grit. 80-3-45 drilling angle measured to the thumb. It is high flaring.
38' THS nothing but dry boards to the outside. By the 3rd game I am swinging it off the 3rd arrow out to 9 and leaving 9 pins regularly. I was worried that it would be difficult to get into a roll thus the 3" pin to PAP. If I was to do it over I would go with a slightly weaker layout now that I understand the strength. The gap between it and my weakest reactive is not a big as I expected. I can get fast with it and miss the breakpoint.

With the low differential of the Boo-Yah I would be looking at a 4" pin to PAP to get decent flare. Thinking about what Gunso and Tony said about it's reaction I would consider a softer more controllable VAL angle. Especially if you plan on keeping it at the factory 1000 grit.
With all this said I come up with 70-4-45 which puts the pin on the edge of the ring finger.
So I end up with the same recommendation as I did for the Rhino, Pin in the ring finger.
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Re: Recommendations for layouts

Post by TonyPR »

If it serves as reference, I tried a guys Boo-yah OOB pin next to RF on a burnt 38 THS and playing around 15 to (7-10) it worked very well, very smooth predictable roll. For reference my other specs are 10*AT and I was probably doing around 45*AT, Brunswick synthetic lanes... have seen it played on short sport with success.
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Re: Recommendations for layouts

Post by gunso »

I regularly play urethane, I have the AMF sumo, hammer purple pearl urethane and the new blue hammer.

The new blue hammer, surface 4000, has by a long shot the weakest cover up front and I can stay out right with it. The blue hammer is not a true urethane.
The sumo, surface 500-1000 depending on conditions, reads the lane the earliest, after 2 games on THS I can usually no longer play with it since I can't get to the right of the head pin, on sport it usually loses it look around the same time but because now I am too deep to get it back.
The purple pearl hammer, surface 1000-2000, has been my best look on THS as it gives a noticeable more push than the sumo and is stronger off the spot so I can move deeper with it. When the lanes get dry though it goes left as soon as it sees friction and that is bad if the friction is early.

The word on the street is that the boo yah has the same cover as the pitch black so it would probably fit in between where my Sumo and purple pearl are. I'd drill it weak if it was for light THS oil but strong if it was for short sport oil, as it is a much stronger ball then the blue hammer. I'd guess it reads the lane 5-6 feet earlier than the blue hammer if drilled the same.

Take my advice with the grain of salt that the only THS I have ever tried are the Kegel stone street and high street on ML-Murray 3000 synthetic lanes so maybe your house plays a lot different
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VLe
BCU Graduate Layouts
BCU Graduate Layouts
Posts: 196
Joined: April 15th, 2015, 7:07 am
Speed: 17
Rev Rate: 320
Axis Tilt: 20
Axis Rotation: 55
Preferred Company: Radical
Location: Finland

Re: Recommendations for layouts

Post by VLe »

Time to make some adjustments to the arsenal.

Currently used gear:

Radical Primo Solid
58-4-37, small balance hole 2" below the midline on the VAL

Controllable and smooth benchmark ball. Very strong movement. Needs some oil on the lane to be able to get to the pocket-side.

900 Global Boo-Yah!
75-4.25-50 (pin in the ring finger)

Very controllable (smooth, does not flip!) ball. Also very strong for urethane. Sees friction immediately. Usually it is possible to play from next to cutter or even lofting from the 4th arrow. Normally end up throwing somewhere from 3th arrow, little outside and then adjust ball speed to control the motion.

The Boo-yah! Is great accompanion with Primo because it can be used if the lanes are too dry and primo does not reach pocket. It can also be used on oily and more challenging conditions by playing straighter. However there have been situations on shorter/dried conditions where it has lost its carry.

I am thinking of buying a ball to the arsenal that is somewhere in middle of these two. Preferably a weaker reactive. Would a Radical Rack Attack (solid or pearl) be a good choice?

Other balls that I have and are not used at the moment:
Radical Ridiculous
Roto Grip Hyper Cell Skid


How about plugging and redrilling one of these two and use something like a low flare or “length with control” –layout? I think my rev rate have been raised a little lately and therefore I have faced some problems. I need to check everything after upcoming tournament finals this week.
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PAP 4 3/8" x 0"
60* rotation
17.5* tilt
320-360 rev rate
17mph off hand
gunso
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Joined: April 4th, 2015, 11:47 pm
Location: Iceland

Re: Recommendations for layouts

Post by gunso »

VLe wrote:Time to make some adjustments to the arsenal.

Currently used gear:

Radical Primo Solid
58-4-37, small balance hole 2" below the midline on the VAL

Controllable and smooth benchmark ball. Very strong movement. Needs some oil on the lane to be able to get to the pocket-side.

900 Global Boo-Yah!
75-4.25-50 (pin in the ring finger)

Very controllable (smooth, does not flip!) ball. Also very strong for urethane. Sees friction immediately. Usually it is possible to play from next to cutter or even lofting from the 4th arrow. Normally end up throwing somewhere from 3th arrow, little outside and then adjust ball speed to control the motion.

The Boo-yah! Is great accompanion with Primo because it can be used if the lanes are too dry and primo does not reach pocket. It can also be used on oily and more challenging conditions by playing straighter. However there have been situations on shorter/dried conditions where it has lost its carry.

I am thinking of buying a ball to the arsenal that is somewhere in middle of these two. Preferably a weaker reactive. Would a Radical Rack Attack (solid or pearl) be a good choice?

Other balls that I have and are not used at the moment:
Radical Ridiculous
Roto Grip Hyper Cell Skid


How about plugging and redrilling one of these two and use something like a low flare or “length with control” –layout? I think my rev rate have been raised a little lately and therefore I have faced some problems. I need to check everything after upcoming tournament finals this week.
Both of those balls should be much cleaner through the fronts then the other 2. I'd suggest throwing a wet 4000 on them or even polish and see if they don't give you the reaction you are looking for without plugging them first.

At least then you could describe the layout that is on them now, what is wrong with the motion and what you are looking for instead.
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