LAYOUT HELP

Which layout is right for me?

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Clueless
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LAYOUT HELP

Post by Clueless »

Going to plug and re-drill a Symmetrical Motiv Primal Scream (RG - 2.55, Diff. - 0.50, Cover - 4000) and asking if my numbers for the benchmark are correct.
My Stats:
PAP 5 over & 1 up
Tilt 27
Rot. 75
Speed 18.5
Rev 290
AMF Synthetic Lanes
Like to play up the boards

My speed to rev. relationship according to Libra - 92
Rounded up to 95
High Tilt - 10
High Rot. - 5
Sweet Spot 80

Ratio allocation - 1:2.25
Asy. Benchmark - 25 X 5 1/16 x 55
Sym.Benchmark - +5 to DA and -5 to VAL
30 x 3.5 x 50

Any suggestions or comments are greatly appreciated and welcomed.

Clueless
elgavachon
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Re: LAYOUT HELP

Post by elgavachon »

Clueless wrote:Going to plug and re-drill a Symmetrical Motiv Primal Scream (RG - 2.55, Diff. - 0.50, Cover - 4000) and asking if my numbers for the benchmark are correct.
My Stats:
PAP 5 over & 1 up
Tilt 27
Rot. 75
Speed 18.5
Rev 290
AMF Synthetic Lanes
Like to play up the boards

My speed to rev. relationship according to Libra - 92
Rounded up to 95
High Tilt - 10
High Rot. - 5
Sweet Spot 80

Ratio allocation - 1:2.25
Asy. Benchmark - 25 X 5 1/16 x 55
Sym.Benchmark - +5 to DA and -5 to VAL
30 x 3.5 x 50

Any suggestions or comments are greatly appreciated and welcomed.

Clueless
To get that drilling angle (or closer), you will need to plan for a balance hole.
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EricHartwell
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Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer
Location: Michigan

Re: LAYOUT HELP

Post by EricHartwell »

Clueless wrote:Going to plug and re-drill a Symmetrical Motiv Primal Scream (RG - 2.55, Diff. - 0.50, Cover - 4000) and asking if my numbers for the benchmark are correct.
My Stats:
PAP 5 over & 1 up
Tilt 27
Rot. 75
Speed 18.5
Rev 290
AMF Synthetic Lanes
Like to play up the boards

My speed to rev. relationship according to Libra - 92
Rounded up to 95
High Tilt - 10
High Rot. - 5
Sweet Spot 80

Ratio allocation - 1:2.25
Asy. Benchmark - 25 X 5 1/16 x 55
Sym.Benchmark - +5 to DA and -5 to VAL
30 x 3.5 x 50

Any suggestions or comments are greatly appreciated and welcomed.

Clueless
I would not have rounded up, i have your basic speed to rev relationship at 90.
This put my totals for you at 75 factoring in your high tilt/rotation. 1:2.25 Ratio

Asym Benchmark........23-5-52
I would round this to 20-5-55 P3 and put the pin in your middle finger

Sym Benchmark.........70-3-50 balance hole 2" below midline on the VAL
70* drilling angle is the Cg location to position it as low as possible to accomodate the balance hole

What layout is currently on the Motiv Primal Scream?

What lane condition are you bowling on, typical house shot (THS) or other condition?

edit for mistake made on sym VAL angle
Last edited by EricHartwell on September 10th, 2016, 8:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
Clueless
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Re: LAYOUT HELP

Post by Clueless »

Don't know the present drilling.

Pattern is THS
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EricHartwell
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Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer
Location: Michigan

Re: LAYOUT HELP

Post by EricHartwell »

Where is the pin located and what don't you like about it that is making you consider re-drilling?
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
Clueless
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Joined: June 14th, 2015, 1:01 am
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Re: LAYOUT HELP

Post by Clueless »

Pin is located next to ring finger and the drilling is probably around 40X50.

I don't think the ball goes into the roll phase soon enough and just want to experiment with a different drilling before purchasing another ball. Local ball driller is just beginning and not sure if he understands how to layout a ball properly. He asks "What do you want it to do," then drills something up.
Not sure that is the best way to drill. He only gets PAP measurements then drills it up.
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EricHartwell
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Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer
Location: Michigan

Re: LAYOUT HELP

Post by EricHartwell »

This is close to your Benchmark, But, without a balance hole the Layout is closer to 90-3-50.

I would put a balance hole 2" below the midline on the VAL and use surface to tune it in from there.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
Clueless
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Joined: June 14th, 2015, 1:01 am
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Re: LAYOUT HELP

Post by Clueless »

Eric:

Quite a contrast from my Sym. layout to your recommendation for the Sym. benchmark. How did you arrive at those figures?

Thanks,
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EricHartwell
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Posts: 4080
Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer
Location: Michigan

Re: LAYOUT HELP

Post by EricHartwell »

A Symmetrical ball does not have a Mass Bias. The Drilling angle using the Cg is to place it for balance hole purposes.

You will not be able to get the drilling angle as low as on an Asymmetrical. The mass bias (PSA) on a Symmetrical is about the thumb hole. That is how I came up with 90* for your existing layout by measuring to the thumb. The 70* drilling angle is to put the Cg as low as possible to accommodate a low balance hole.

You converted the Asym layout to Sym correctly just you will not be able to move the PSA to 30*
With a balance hole you will be able to estimate the PSA location at about half way between the thumb and balance hole. This is why Asym layouts are much more accurate.

You did catch my mistake the VAL angle on the Symmetrical should be 50* or 47* without rounding.
I will edit my previous post.

So you were very close to my calculation. I opted for the shorter pin to PAP to burn off tilt faster.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
Clueless
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Posts: 28
Joined: June 14th, 2015, 1:01 am
Preferred Company: Radical

Re: LAYOUT HELP

Post by Clueless »

Would the info from the previous post apply to any Sym balls that I might be interested in?
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EricHartwell
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Posts: 4080
Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer
Location: Michigan

Re: LAYOUT HELP

Post by EricHartwell »

Clueless wrote:Would the info from the previous post apply to any Sym balls that I might be interested in?
Yes.
Like elgavachon said in the the beginning of this thread you will need to use a balance hole with Symmetrical ball drillings for the reasons I mentioned in the previous post.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
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stevespo
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THS Average: 225
Positive Axis Point: 5.75" x + 3/8"
Speed: 17+ off hand (camera)
Rev Rate: 375
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Phaze II, Altered Reality
Medium Oil Ball: IQ Tour Nano, Zen, Phase III
Light Oil Ball: Electrify Pearl

Re: LAYOUT HELP

Post by stevespo »

Eric has explained all this really well, but it took me several experiments for it to sink in. Here's a visual that might help.

I drilled an IQ Tour Solid (left), pin under with the CG right of the thumb and added a balance hole to make it legal. I assumed it would roll early and be very continuous. Wrong! The long pin-PAP (5") and large drill angle made it a skid flip. The PSA was effectively under the thumb, so the drill angle was greater than 90 degrees. A "smooth" flip, but still very long.
iq-tour-experiements.jpg
I then drilled the balance hole significantly deeper and the reaction improved. It read the midlane better and the breakpoint was earlier. The PSA moved towards the balance hole and the effective drill angle was reduced. It's somewhere around 65 x 5 x 65 now. The image shows the PSA off the determinator as the center of the large circle.

I drilled a 2nd IQ Tour Solid (right), with a short pin-PAP (high flaring, 3 3/8"), added a deep balance hole 2" on the VAL under the midline, and this rolls early and is very continuous. Again, the PSA is about 1/2 way between the thumb and the balance hole, but it takes a large and deep balance hole to really shift it significantly. It started with a more than 90 degree DA, and moved towards 60 x 3 3/8 x 50.

Drill the deep balance hole as directed, and try more surface. Something like 500/2000 skip grit to move the breakpoint closer. With your speed, I can imagine where you'd blow through the breakpoint without an aggressive flaring layout and some surface.

Steve
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16 mph (14-14.5 on monitor), 375 rpm, PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8 up, AT: 12*, AR: 45*
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