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 Post subject: Ball and layout advice for extreme wet/dry
 Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2010 4:52 pm Post Number: #1 Post
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Hi all,
I just moved to this area a few months ago and am bowling 3 nights a week in the same center (its the only center within 40mins or so from my house). Last year they installed new AMF synthetic lanes and just purchased a new Kegel lane machine about 6 weeks or so. After several changes to the pattern with the new machine, they finally settled on a 37ft pattern that is playing extremely wet/dry front to back and side to side for me. my stronger stuff either reads too early or jumps off the back of the pattern or the outside. If I square up with my weaker balls playing the oil line, they either scate down the pattern if I miss a little left or read too early if I miss a little right. Regardless of the ball I am using or the line I am playing, I have to be near perfect or its through the nose or washout. The most consistant reaction I have found so far is playing out (12-5 or so) with my Natural.

I am looking for some ball and layout suggestions to even this pattern out for me. I have attached a spreadsheet with my current equipment listed. Note: I have tried the majority of what is listed and made multiple surface adjustments to them.

Specs:
Hand - Right
Speed - 16.5mph on monitor
Rev Rate - 400
Initial Axis Rotation - 55*
Initial Axis Tilt - 5*
What surface you want the ball - synthetic
What lane condition you are bowling on most of the time - extreme wet/dry, 38ft
Do you think you are speed or revolutions dominate - speed
PAP - 5 3/4> 3/4^

Thanks in advance.


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 Post subject: Re: Ball and layout advice for extreme wet/dry
 Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2010 5:28 pm Post Number: #2 Post
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wpzone wrote:
Specs:
Hand - Right
Speed - 16.5mph on monitor
Rev Rate - 400
Initial Axis Rotation - 55*
Initial Axis Tilt - 5*
What surface you want the ball - synthetic
What lane condition you are bowling on most of the time - extreme wet/dry, 38ft


Okay. 16.5 on the monitor makes for 18-18.5 mph, which actually makes you slightly rev dominant to rev dominant, so I would say your baseline total would be 105°.

You have very low axis tilt with medium axis rotation. This is likely the cause of your over/under problems. I'm not surprise the Natural is giving you the best look on those conditions. Longer, smoother hook zone :) Anyway, with tilt that low, we'll need to add 10° to your total, for 115°. Since you bowl mostly on new synthetic surfaces, we'll subtract 10° to account for this. Your ratios will be around 3:1-2:1 and your pins will be around 1.5"-2.5" asym, 4"-5.5" sym.

Your benchmark layout will be something like 75° / 2" / 30° asym (2.5:1), 80° / 4.5" / 30° sym (a little over a little over).

Now, to handle your problem :) It sounds like you need something that gives you more control of the midlane and a longer hook zone. So, we'll reduce the total by 10° and reduce the ratio to 2:1. We'll use slightly weaker pins as well, to help reduce the over/under.

That comes out to 65° / 1.75" / 30° asym, 70° / 5" / 30°. If that's still too aggressive, use a P1 hole to smooth out the reaction a little more.

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 Post subject: Re: Ball and layout advice for extreme wet/dry
 Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2010 6:16 pm Post Number: #3 Post
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Thanks Kelly.

What type of ball should I be looking at? Low RG/med diff/med cover, med RG/med diff/med cover, or ?


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 Post subject: Re: Ball and layout advice for extreme wet/dry
 Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2010 6:49 pm Post Number: #4 Post
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You have some REAL nice equipment in your arsenal already. I just saw the layout on the Natural! 60° / 5" / 35° is REALLY close to what I figured would work for you. Now I'm REALLY not surprised that ball worked pretty well for you.

All the pins on your Asym gear are WAY too long for your specs. That gear is all tuned to burn off tilt and axis rotation quickly. Since your tilt is so low, you really need to retain it as long as possible.

I would suggest you try the layout on a piece you don't mind plugging and re-drilling. If it works well, you could move it to a new ball if you want. I would at something medium cover, medium to medium-high diff. Don't stress too much about RG. Diff and diff ratio is much more important. Surface changes will do the rest. :) Something like the Virtual Gravity or Virtual Energy would do pretty good, I think.

If you're not averse to trying Morich, I would suggest the Craze. I've thrown a demo of that ball and its REAL smooth through the midlane. I'd say it will do the job nicely if you're in the market for a new ball.

I'm sure Mo could give you a better suggestion, but I wouldn't be surprised if he went that way as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Ball and layout advice for extreme wet/dry
 Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 1:49 am Post Number: #5 Post
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Welcome to the site
Kelly always has good advice. Kelly and I have been doing some pming and he gave you one option which we have been discussing. I thought I would throw out the other just to see what Mo thought.
I think he might lower those ratios a little. I won't go through all the reasoning, but it is possible Mo might like 1.75:1 for your benchmark ratio with a lower range of 2.25:1 to 1.25:1
If we used kellys numbers that would give you something like
70* 2 1/4 55* for an overblock.
WAIT FOR MO BEFORE YOU DRILL. He will adjust according to the ball he recommends. Which I'm sure will at least include one Morich.


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 Post subject: Re: Ball and layout advice for extreme wet/dry
 Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 2:19 am Post Number: #6 Post
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Im in no hurry to drill so we have time to nail this down. Thanks for the help.


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 Post subject: Re: Ball and layout advice for extreme wet/dry
 Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 2:30 am Post Number: #7 Post
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wpzone wrote:
Im in no hurry to drill so we have time to nail this down. Thanks for the help.

That is good. The overblock is hard for us to mentally visualize exactly.
I am assuming your ball driller is keeping up on things. He would be the one to fine tune things. If the lanes were not quit as easy as I visualize, then he might go 70* 2 1/4 50* for example expecting to use a P1 wt hole.
Mo is teaching us lots of options.
THANKS AGAIN MO.


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 Post subject: Re: Ball and layout advice for extreme wet/dry
 Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 2:53 am Post Number: #8 Post
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Quote:
I am assuming your ball driller is keeping up on things.


Well, since I am new to the area, the only driller I trust is back home about 1200 miles away. I will be there in 3 weeks so he is an option. The pro shop guy here is also the center manager, which I bowl with 2 of the 3 nights. He is a nice guy but doesn’t come off as very technical. He can hit lines, but each time I have tried to get into a discussion of balls and layouts, it has hasn’t gotten anywhere. I have actually had several people come to me for ball/layout advice the last couple of weeks.

I can lay the ball out and let him drill it or I can drill it myself as he has given me full access to the pro shop. In the past couple of years I have done all the layouts on my equipment, with input from my old driller, but it has probably been 15 years since I have done the actual drilling.


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 Post subject: Re: Ball and layout advice for extreme wet/dry
 Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2010 3:00 am Post Number: #9 Post
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I know the overblock well, because I bowl on one and I know whats its like to bowl with tilt that low, because I used to have tilt that low and all I got was violent over/under reactions! I feel your pain, wpzone!

Currently, I have 17° tilt and around 60° rotation. My ball speed is around 17.5-18mph and my rev rate is right around 400. Again, I feel your pain.

If you're good buddies with your current shop operator, see if he wouldn't mind letting you punch up your own equipment. Even if its under supervision. Who knows, you might be able to educate him a little while you're at it ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Ball and layout advice for extreme wet/dry
 Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 2:56 am Post Number: #10 Post
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Thanks for the help so far. I am trying to get a better grasp on Mo's methodology for ball layouts and have been reading several posts by the two of you, along with Mo's comments to your posts.
I have come up with the following. Let me know how far off these are and please explain why.

105* + - 20* -
2.25 - 1.25:1 ratios (1.75:1 benchmark)
Symmetrical Pin length - 4-5"
Asymmetrical Pin length - 1 - 3"? (Please explain when to use shorter and when to use longer)

65 x 2 1/2 x 40 - asym benchmark
80 x 3 x 35 - asym long and strong
45 x 3 x 40 - asym midlane

70 x 2 x 55 asym longer with control
80 x 3 x 35 asym longer and stronger

I assume the symmetrical layouts would be the same with the exception of the pin lengths.
I am going to 4-6 balls and redrill them with new layouts since as you stated, the pin lengths on all my asym balls are way off. I may pick up a couple a couple of MO's balls since it has been 3-4 years since I tried any. I would start with these and build the remaining around them. I was thinking of the Craze (benchmark) and the RipR (midlane). What are your thoughts on layouts for these two and other layouts that would fit my specs? Keep in mind that 2 balls need to be for this overblocked pattern.

Specs:
Hand - Right
Speed - 16.5mph on monitor (Qubica)
Rev Rate - 400
Initial Axis Rotation - 55*
Initial Axis Tilt - 5*
What surface you want the ball - synthetic
What lane condition you are bowling on most of the time - extreme wet/dry, 38ft
PAP - 5 3/4> 3/4^


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 Post subject: Re: Ball and layout advice for extreme wet/dry
 Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 3:36 am Post Number: #11 Post
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wpzone wrote:
105* + - 20* -
2.25 - 1.25:1 ratios (1.75:1 benchmark)
Symmetrical Pin length - 4-5"
Asymmetrical Pin length - 1 - 3"? (Please explain when to use shorter and when to use longer)


The choice of pin length is dictated by what you're wanting the ball to do, really. If you need to cover boards, you go with a pin that will give you more flare (closer to leverage, or 3.25"). If you're wanting more of a control style layout, you use weaker pins.

wpzone wrote:
65 x 2 1/2 x 40 - asym benchmark
80 x 3 x 35 - asym long and strong
45 x 3 x 40 - asym midlane

70 x 2 x 55 asym longer with control
80 x 3 x 35 asym longer and stronger


These layouts look good to me, except the long and strong and longer and stronger are the same. :P

One thing to bear in mind is the adjustment of the total angle controls the overall strength of the layout (higher = weaker, lower = stronger), adjustments of the ratio changes shape of the break point (lower = long, smooth. higher = strong flip) and Pin distances affect the STRENGTH of the break point (stronger = more defined break point, weaker = smoother break points).

For instance, if you're bowling on a flood with a strong ball (eg. Morich RipR, Storm Invasion) and you're looking for control, you want to LOWER the total AND lower the ratio and use the strongest Pin for you. In your case, that comes out to something like 50° / 2.5" / 35° (a little over 1.25:1) using elgavachon's numbers.

wpzone wrote:
I assume the symmetrical layouts would be the same with the exception of the pin lengths.


In general, you raise the drilling angle by 5°.

wpzone wrote:
I am going to 4-6 balls and redrill them with new layouts since as you stated, the pin lengths on all my asym balls are way off. I may pick up a couple a couple of MO's balls since it has been 3-4 years since I tried any. I would start with these and build the remaining around them. I was thinking of the Craze (benchmark) and the RipR (midlane). What are your thoughts on layouts for these two and other layouts that would fit my specs? Keep in mind that 2 balls need to be for this overblocked pattern.


I would pick just a couple of balls at first, rather than redo a bunch all at once. This will allow to get a better feel for the types of layouts you'll need on the equipment you plan to purchase and/or re-drill. Not to mention it will be a little softer on your pocket to start with. ;)

I would use your benchmark layout on the Craze and use a heavier rolling midlane layout on the RipR. To me, that looks something like (using my numbers):

Craze - 75° / 2" / 30° (2.5:1)
RipR - 65° / 2.75" / 30° (a little over 2:1)

This is stuff that Mo is better, so hopefully he chimes in and gives you a recommendation. Especially since he designed both balls.

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 Post subject: Re: Ball and layout advice for extreme wet/dry
 Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 6:01 am Post Number: #12 Post
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I actually have two charts that I have been studying as far as layouts go. I pulled the ratios I gave you off of one with these examples on it.

Motogp69 has very close to your specs.
Mo gave Motog a symmetrical benchmark . If we convert it to an asymmetrical benchmark, it would have a 1.6:1 ratio (see #15)
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=365

SteveS is also a lot like you. he said 14 mph at the camera =16 at the hand. revs 200-250. I would say he is slighlty speed dominant where you are slightly rev dominant. he gave 60* to 70* rotation which would average 65* to your 60*. He asked Mo for layouts to play up the edge of the oil on a typical house shot. (see #4) 70* 2 1/4 50* P1
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=653
In my opinion ,you having less rotation and more revs would actually increase the ratios if anything, but there is a very slight difference between the two of you.

The other chart is the one Kelly used. (which is on the wiki). It would give you the ratios Kelly used. I only posted these ratios because I have noticed a decrease in ratios with tilts below 7*and I was hoping when Mo gave you a benchmark , it would help me clarify when to use which chart. I have discussed this with Kelly (as well as with Athery),but the jury is still out. We will have to wait for Mo to deliver the verdict to see if my observations are on the right track.Sorry to confuse you, but as you can see from the examples above, it is worth mentioning.

P.S. You will also notice the double thumb recommendation for heavy oil.


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 Post subject: Re: Ball and layout advice for extreme wet/dry
 Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 9:30 pm Post Number: #13 Post
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wpzone wrote:
Hi all,
I just moved to this area a few months ago and am bowling 3 nights a week in the same center (its the only center within 40mins or so from my house). Last year they installed new AMF synthetic lanes and just purchased a new Kegel lane machine about 6 weeks or so. After several changes to the pattern with the new machine, they finally settled on a 37ft pattern that is playing extremely wet/dry front to back and side to side for me. my stronger stuff either reads too early or jumps off the back of the pattern or the outside. If I square up with my weaker balls playing the oil line, they either scate down the pattern if I miss a little left or read too early if I miss a little right. Regardless of the ball I am using or the line I am playing, I have to be near perfect or its through the nose or washout. The most consistant reaction I have found so far is playing out (12-5 or so) with my Natural.

I am looking for some ball and layout suggestions to even this pattern out for me. I have attached a spreadsheet with my current equipment listed. Note: I have tried the majority of what is listed and made multiple surface adjustments to them.

Specs:
Hand - Right
Speed - 16.5mph on monitor
Rev Rate - 400
Initial Axis Rotation - 55*
Initial Axis Tilt - 5*
What surface you want the ball - synthetic
What lane condition you are bowling on most of the time - extreme wet/dry, 38ft
Do you think you are speed or revolutions dominate - speed
PAP - 5 3/4> 3/4^

Thanks in advance.


Looks like my turn. 1st comment is that the length of the pattern is the issue. Too much back end distance. It's typical in the situation of going from wood lanes to synthetics because the proprietor is afraid that his bowlers won't be able to hook the ball since they're used to wood. Look for the length of the pattern to increase over time as they become educated about the new Kegel machine and the new synthetics. Another example of reaction problems from low tilt bowlers, especially since your rev dominant in my opinion. You're going to need a high sweet spot with a long transitioning drilling. If it works here, it may not work other places. Because of what you describe as extreme wet/dry, I recommend 75 / 2 1/4 / 55 for asymmetricals and 80 / 4 1/2 / 55 with symmetricals. Use a P1 hole to lengthen the transition. if necessary.


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 Post subject: Re: Ball and layout advice for extreme wet/dry
 Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 12:24 am Post Number: #14 Post
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Just out of curiosity Mo, what would you give for a benchmark and ratios to a bowler with these specs If he was a tournament bowler on varied conditions?
5* tilt
55* rotation
18.5 hand
375 revs

THANKS AGAIN

Kelly calls it a generic benchmark.


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 Post subject: Re: Ball and layout advice for extreme wet/dry
 Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 1:06 pm Post Number: #15 Post
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elgavachon wrote:
Just out of curiosity Mo, what would you give for a benchmark and ratios to a bowler with these specs If he was a tournament bowler on varied conditions?
5* tilt
55* rotation
18.5 hand
375 revs

THANKS AGAIN

Kelly calls it a generic benchmark.


60 / 3 1/4 / 35 for asymmetricals
65 / 3 1/4 / 30 for symmetricals

The 5* of tilt dominates my thought process.


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 Post subject: Re: Ball and layout advice for extreme wet/dry
 Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 3:23 pm Post Number: #16 Post
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Thanks Mo. I am going redrill an existing ball with your suggested layout and make some grip changes based off of your fitting guide. Per your guide, my middle finger is about 3/8 long, ring finger is 1/8 long, and I need to add about 1/8 reverse in the thumb. I am hoping the grip changes affect my tilt as I have tried several release changes to no avail.

Once these changes are done and I am happy with the new grip, I will post results of the grip and layout here.


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 Post subject: Re: Ball and layout advice for extreme wet/dry
 Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 3:30 pm Post Number: #17 Post
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wpzone wrote:
Thanks Mo. I am going redrill an existing ball with your suggested layout and make some grip changes based off of your fitting guide. Per your guide, my middle finger is about 3/8 long, ring finger is 1/8 long, and I need to add about 1/8 reverse in the thumb. I am hoping the grip changes affect my tilt as I have tried several release changes to no avail.

Once these changes are done and I am happy with the new grip, I will post results of the grip and layout here.


Just keep me informed. please.


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 Post subject: Re: Ball and layout advice for extreme wet/dry
 Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 4:00 pm Post Number: #18 Post
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Quote:
60 / 3 1/4 / 35 for asymmetricals
65 / 3 1/4 / 30 for symmetricals

The 5* of tilt dominates my thought process.


Quick question for clarification. For the benchmark, use the same pin lenght for both asym and sym?


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 Post subject: Re: Ball and layout advice for extreme wet/dry
 Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 4:51 pm Post Number: #19 Post
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wpzone wrote:
Quote:
60 / 3 1/4 / 35 for asymmetricals
65 / 3 1/4 / 30 for symmetricals

The 5* of tilt dominates my thought process.


Quick question for clarification. For the benchmark, use the same pin lenght for both asym and sym?


Yes, cause I believe you're speed dominant.


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 Post subject: Re: Ball and layout advice for extreme wet/dry
 Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 6:14 pm Post Number: #20 Post
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You guys saw the hypothetical bowler had different specs than Wpzone? I was hoping to have speed/rev matched. I thought Wpzsone was rev dominant. That is why I lowered the revs for the generic benchmark. I was confirming (to myself) the 1.75:1 in post #5 and I was after one less variable.


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