Layout Help Regarding Asyms and Situations

Which layout is right for me?

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
Th3Pr0digy
Member
Member
Posts: 6
Joined: April 21st, 2016, 1:15 am
Preferred Company: Storm (school sponsored)

Layout Help Regarding Asyms and Situations

Post by Th3Pr0digy »

Hello everyone. I'm new to the site, but I've visited a few times to view various topics. I would like some help finding my benchmark layouts and all the other ones (strong, length and backend, control, etc.) I've spoken to many people about asymmetrics and I'm hearing two different views. Originally based on the dual angle PDF, I thought anything higher than 2.5 is a higher flarjng asymmetric layout with closer to 6 providing more of a forward rolling finish and 3 more of a side rolling finish. Now I'm hearing that 3 inches is earlier and 6 is later for both asymmetric and symmetric. I know that symmetrics work differently and 5-6 provides later and sharper motions compared to 2 inches.
I'm a college bowler weighing my options for next year. More than likely I'm going to drill an Alpha Crux for most fresh patterns, but I don't want to screw up the layout. I will post a youtube link below. Thanks for the help in advance.
[youtube][/youtube]
TonyPR
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 1386
Joined: December 14th, 2014, 3:08 am
Preferred Company: Radical
Location: San Juan, PR

Re: Layout Help Regarding Asyms and Situations

Post by TonyPR »

Welcome! Please provide the following specs so we can help you with your layouts and surface adjustments.
-Ball speed and how it was measured (monitor, off the hand, CATS)
-Rev rate or approximate rev rate. Are you matched, rev dominant or speed dominant?
-Axis Tilt
-Axis Rotation
-PAP
-Oil pattern(s) and lane surface (synthetic or wood)
-Lines you want to play
-Balls you want to drill

Any good pro shop can help you find out this data, if not there is plenty of info in the Wiki section of this forum that will show you how to do it.

The more of the above data you can provide the better we can help.
Silver Level Coach
Kegel KCMP1 and KCMP2 Completed /Approved Exam
Kegel KCMP3 Completed
Kegel Certified Pro Shop Operator
Free agent
Th3Pr0digy
Member
Member
Posts: 6
Joined: April 21st, 2016, 1:15 am
Preferred Company: Storm (school sponsored)

Re: Layout Help Regarding Asyms and Situations

Post by Th3Pr0digy »

My normal rev rate is around 550 (on a guess) and my speed off the monitor is usually around 18. Tilt I'm guessing is around 5 degrees as my PAP is 6 1/4 over and 1 3/8 up. I'm guessing most if not all places are synthetic. We don't know the oil pattern ahead of time but usually there is a ton of volume and around 38 ft flatter patterns. I'm unsure of my axis rotation. I was hoping a video could help with the uncertaincy.
User avatar
MegaMav
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 4694
Joined: April 27th, 2007, 5:00 am
THS Average: 225
Sport Average: 200
Positive Axis Point: 5.5 Over & 1 Up
Speed: 16.0 MPH - Camera
Rev Rate: 375
Axis Tilt: 14
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical - Informer
Medium Oil Ball: Brunswick - Fearless
Light Oil Ball: Radical - Bonus Pearl
Preferred Company: Radical Bowling Technologies
Location: Malta, NY

Re: Layout Help Regarding Asyms and Situations

Post by MegaMav »

By eye, I'd have him at:

AR: 40-50
AT: 0-4 degrees.
Very Rev Dominant.

Are you bowling on sport patterns mostly?
Th3Pr0digy
Member
Member
Posts: 6
Joined: April 21st, 2016, 1:15 am
Preferred Company: Storm (school sponsored)

Re: Layout Help Regarding Asyms and Situations

Post by Th3Pr0digy »

Almost exclusively on sport patterns but I do occasionally bowl leagues.
User avatar
MegaMav
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 4694
Joined: April 27th, 2007, 5:00 am
THS Average: 225
Sport Average: 200
Positive Axis Point: 5.5 Over & 1 Up
Speed: 16.0 MPH - Camera
Rev Rate: 375
Axis Tilt: 14
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical - Informer
Medium Oil Ball: Brunswick - Fearless
Light Oil Ball: Radical - Bonus Pearl
Preferred Company: Radical Bowling Technologies
Location: Malta, NY

Re: Layout Help Regarding Asyms and Situations

Post by MegaMav »

Looks like no thumb.

Pin to PAP distances and how they should be used will vary by bowler.
You already are displaying a lack much rotation so, we'll still want to burn that somewhat slow to make sure you get enough entry angle before the ball rolls.
Spoiler:
For a fresh medium to longer sport pattern look consider:

Asymmetric at least .015 Int diff
45 x 4.25 x 50
Before you do that though, do you have a problem with balls tracking over your finger holes if yoo do not use full roller layouts? You are fairly close to a full roller.
TonyPR
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 1386
Joined: December 14th, 2014, 3:08 am
Preferred Company: Radical
Location: San Juan, PR

Re: Layout Help Regarding Asyms and Situations

Post by TonyPR »

PAP and Tilt are not necessarily related, that said most two handers have low tilt, mine is 2.5*. Have your tilt measured by your pro shop, they can do that with an armadillo, just roll a few balls in the oil and have them mark the first oil ring. Depending on the mark where the oil ring ends up in the armadillo, you can know your AT, google how to measure axis tilt with an armadillo.
Silver Level Coach
Kegel KCMP1 and KCMP2 Completed /Approved Exam
Kegel KCMP3 Completed
Kegel Certified Pro Shop Operator
Free agent
Th3Pr0digy
Member
Member
Posts: 6
Joined: April 21st, 2016, 1:15 am
Preferred Company: Storm (school sponsored)

Re: Layout Help Regarding Asyms and Situations

Post by Th3Pr0digy »

My track never touches the fingers but it does come very close to if not cliping the thumb. My equipment seems to still be rolling pretty well with "normal" layouts so I'd rather not potentially waste a ball on full roller especially since my last one I didn't like at all. By the way, I do use my thumb. I'm currently taking some time away from bowling (practice, tournaments, leagues, etc.) so I won't be able to get my axis tilt measured for quite some time.

Can someone also get back to me on the asymmetric theory? A 5 inch pin to PAP ball will be rollier compared to a 3 inch pin and not store as much energy?
User avatar
MegaMav
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 4694
Joined: April 27th, 2007, 5:00 am
THS Average: 225
Sport Average: 200
Positive Axis Point: 5.5 Over & 1 Up
Speed: 16.0 MPH - Camera
Rev Rate: 375
Axis Tilt: 14
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical - Informer
Medium Oil Ball: Brunswick - Fearless
Light Oil Ball: Radical - Bonus Pearl
Preferred Company: Radical Bowling Technologies
Location: Malta, NY

Re: Layout Help Regarding Asyms and Situations

Post by MegaMav »

There is no storage of energy, its about burning off tilt and rotation.
When tilt = rotation the ball will stop hooking and roll.
On an asymmetric, 5" Pin to PAP will burn tilt and rotation off faster than 3" Pin to PAP.
Th3Pr0digy
Member
Member
Posts: 6
Joined: April 21st, 2016, 1:15 am
Preferred Company: Storm (school sponsored)

Re: Layout Help Regarding Asyms and Situations

Post by Th3Pr0digy »

I'm still on the hunt to learn a few things about my layout data. Biggest issue in my bag at the moment is on fresh medium patterns with very clean backends. My ball doesn't seem to burn tilt fast enough on this kind of pattern and I cannot create an efficient release to repeat like normal. I'm thinking I need a lower drill angle asym or a shorter pin symmetrical.
570 rpm, 19 off hand, 3 degrees of axis tilt, and about 45 degrees of axis rotation. If any other information is needed, please let me know.
User avatar
EricHartwell
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 4080
Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer
Location: Michigan

Re: Layout Help Regarding Asyms and Situations

Post by EricHartwell »

Th3Pr0digy wrote:I'm still on the hunt to learn a few things about my layout data. Biggest issue in my bag at the moment is on fresh medium patterns with very clean backends. My ball doesn't seem to burn tilt fast enough on this kind of pattern and I cannot create an efficient release to repeat like normal. I'm thinking I need a lower drill angle asym or a shorter pin symmetrical.
570 rpm, 19 off hand, 3 degrees of axis tilt, and about 45 degrees of axis rotation. If any other information is needed, please let me know.
You don't have much tilt to burn in the first place. I don't think the burning of tilt fast enough is your issue.
Why do you feel that is your issue?

What balls and layouts are you trying to use?
Did you try MegaMav's 45 x 4.25 x 50 on the Alpha Crux?

Do you use your Thumb?
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
Th3Pr0digy
Member
Member
Posts: 6
Joined: April 21st, 2016, 1:15 am
Preferred Company: Storm (school sponsored)

Re: Layout Help Regarding Asyms and Situations

Post by Th3Pr0digy »

I didn't realize that comment was there until now. But no I did not. Apparently I'm confusing terms or something. Basically, my ball motion with a lot of my current stuff is too much downlane. I have a Sure Lock (65x5x65) that I drilled mostly for individual tournaments when I need shape on the fresh. I've have thrown a Lock that was around 45x4x50, but I don't think it was quite smooth enough of a ball for it to fit my need. Definitely was a lot more forward rolling which I liked. And yes I use my thumb.
LittleTiger
Member
Member
Posts: 143
Joined: December 6th, 2015, 10:33 am
Location: Finland

Re: Layout Help Regarding Asyms and Situations

Post by LittleTiger »

To be honest I didn't fully understood which kind of ball motion you are looking for so I tried to collect different kind of options to here.
Th3Pr0digy wrote:I've spoken to many people about asymmetrics and I'm hearing two different views. Originally based on the dual angle PDF, I thought anything higher than 2.5 is a higher flarjng asymmetric layout with closer to 6 providing more of a forward rolling finish and 3 more of a side rolling finish. Now I'm hearing that 3 inches is earlier and 6 is later for both asymmetric and symmetric. I know that symmetrics work differently and 5-6 provides later and sharper motions compared to 2 inches.
Look: http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/images ... echart.JPG" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
and: http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... Fact_Sheet" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Just because the flare is the same doesn't mean the shape is the same. 2 3/4" to 3 3/4" pin to PAP distance results in the ball covering the most # of boards. 3 3/4" to 4 3/4" pin to PAP distance covers less boards. 4 3/4" to 5 3/4" pin to PAP covers the least amount od boards and rolls forward the soonest.
Th3Pr0digy wrote:Biggest issue in my bag at the moment is on fresh medium patterns with very clean backends. My ball doesn't seem to burn tilt fast enough on this kind of pattern and I cannot create an efficient release to repeat like normal. I'm thinking I need a lower drill angle asym or a shorter pin symmetrical.
You have very less of tilt so burning it is not your issue but burning of rotation probably is.

I made simulation by using your specs to show how changes on ball speed, rev rate and rotation affects ball motion:
changes_on_ball_motion.png
Th3Pr0digy wrote:Basically, my ball motion with a lot of my current stuff is too much downlane. I have a Sure Lock (65x5x65) that I drilled mostly for individual tournaments when I need shape on the fresh. I've have thrown a Lock that was around 45x4x50, but I don't think it was quite smooth enough of a ball for it to fit my need. Definitely was a lot more forward rolling which I liked.
So if I understand this one right you actually want less hook?

Have you tried to add more surface to your balls to see if that helps?
Look: http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... ng_Layouts" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Sport bowling layouts control the back part of the lane and read where the end of the pattern is, and where the friction spots are within the pattern. How do we do this?
We burn tilt and rotation faster, reduce the drill angle to read the pattern early, and increase the VAL angle to smooth out transition.
Th3Pr0digy wrote:And yes I use my thumb.
You have very interesting style. It looks that you keep left hand very long on ball like non-thumb players are doing but still using thumb. Side video would be interesting to see.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Post Reply