Layout guessing excel sheet. L.A.G.S.

Which layout is right for me?

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jannepalo
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Positive Axis Point: 6 over 1/16 down
Speed: 17
Rev Rate: 425
Axis Tilt: 8
Axis Rotation: 70
Heavy Oil Ball: Morich Frenzy
Medium Oil Ball: Quantum Black, Magnitude 035
Light Oil Ball: Fanatic BTU, RackAttack Pearl, Black Urethane, Columbia Jazz
Preferred Company: Brunswick
Location: Seinäjoki Finland

Layout guessing excel sheet. L.A.G.S.

Post by jannepalo » March 3rd, 2016, 1:33 am

The sheet uses the information and charts and tables from bowlingchat wiki to get as correct values as possible but there are many serius malfunctions and errors when figuring out new layouts. Generally it is possible to use this program to to check your benchmark ratios and total sum of angles, and where your drilled balls fit in your arsenal.

Importand variables that currently need to be solved:
-Pin-Pap distances
-lane condition adjustments
-ball spesific adjustments
-ball surface adjustments
-balance hole locations

** updated 19.9.2016 **
- Program now "tries" to adjust PIN-PAP distances. Still poorly.
- Minor adjustments to rev/speed dominance tables. Matched sector now larger and sweetspot goes up slower.

** updated 1.8.2016 **
- Ball weight adjustments
- Coverstock adjustments
- THS / Sport adjustments (experimental)
- Lanetype (synthetic / wood) adjustments

The excel sheet is currently hosted and edited in google sheet enviroment. Greed fields should be editable and other fields sould be locked. Im not sure how this works on different platforms and browsers. I prefer Chrome.

Link To the sheet:

> Layout Guessing Excel Sheet. L.A.G.S. <
Last edited by jannepalo on September 19th, 2016, 7:39 pm, edited 11 times in total.
Janne Palo
ProShop Operator / Bowling Center Staff
Bowling Center Seinäjoki, Finland
ETBF level 1 ProShop Driller / Manager
B.E. Automation. Seinäjoki University of Applied Sciences.
Stats:
PAP 6 over 1/16 down
17 mph
425 rpm
Rotation 70
Tilt 8 dg

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bowl1820
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Re: Layout guessing excel sheet. L.A.G.S.

Post by bowl1820 » March 3rd, 2016, 2:53 am

If you want to try a comparison of yours to others

Look at the Storm Vector Layout system:
https://www.stormbowling.com/drill-spec ... legacy.xls

and kellytehuna's old Ball drilling selector.

http://layoutselector.kellytehuna.com/index.php/bowler
"REMEMBER, it isn't how much the ball hooks, it's where."

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stevespo
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THS Average: 225
Positive Axis Point: 5.75" x + 3/8"
Speed: 17+ off hand (camera)
Rev Rate: 375
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Guru Master, Track Paradox
Medium Oil Ball: Radical Primo, Hammer Black Widow Red Legend Pearl
Light Oil Ball: Hammer Arson Low Flare Solid, Radical Jackpot

Re: Layout guessing excel sheet. L.A.G.S.

Post by stevespo » March 3rd, 2016, 7:10 pm

I understand that we can't replace human experts with a program/spreadsheet, but I appreciate the effort and I think the tool is useful. I created something very similar when I was trying to wrap my head around DA, and it's a good learning experience because you have to really think about the variables and their relationships.

If you can work out the finer details, it will get better. I see it as a way to get in the right ballpark, then seek out refinement and fine tuning from the experts.

Steve
18-19 mph (15.5-16.5 on monitor), 375 rpm, PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8 up, AT: 12*, AR: 45*

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jannepalo
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Posts: 42
Joined: December 14th, 2015, 10:32 pm
Positive Axis Point: 6 over 1/16 down
Speed: 17
Rev Rate: 425
Axis Tilt: 8
Axis Rotation: 70
Heavy Oil Ball: Morich Frenzy
Medium Oil Ball: Quantum Black, Magnitude 035
Light Oil Ball: Fanatic BTU, RackAttack Pearl, Black Urethane, Columbia Jazz
Preferred Company: Brunswick
Location: Seinäjoki Finland

Re: Layout guessing excel sheet. L.A.G.S.

Post by jannepalo » March 3rd, 2016, 9:03 pm

Thanks for trying out the sheet! Currently the issue that needs attention the most is the pin-pap distances. The sheet currently uses hardcoded values for syms and asyms. Im trying to figure out a formula or data table or some other way to come up with pin-pap distances and adjustments that would acceptable and close to what I would use in real life. Also if anyone has any suggestions on what should be different ot changed please feel free to comment.
Janne Palo
ProShop Operator / Bowling Center Staff
Bowling Center Seinäjoki, Finland
ETBF level 1 ProShop Driller / Manager
B.E. Automation. Seinäjoki University of Applied Sciences.
Stats:
PAP 6 over 1/16 down
17 mph
425 rpm
Rotation 70
Tilt 8 dg

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Re: Layout guessing excel sheet. L.A.G.S.

Post by duvallite » March 4th, 2016, 1:01 am

All 3 of the mentioned "layout selectors" are interesting to play around with. One question I have though that applies to each one of them is regarding the bowler's "ball speed" field. When using either Storm's VLS program, kellytehuna's program, or now this new one, is the entry supposed to be the "off the hand" speed or the "down-lane speed as shown on the monitors"?

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Re: Layout guessing excel sheet. L.A.G.S.

Post by bowl1820 » March 4th, 2016, 1:18 am

Pretty much anything in regard to layouts and speed uses off hand speed when available in calculations.
"REMEMBER, it isn't how much the ball hooks, it's where."

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jannepalo
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Joined: December 14th, 2015, 10:32 pm
Positive Axis Point: 6 over 1/16 down
Speed: 17
Rev Rate: 425
Axis Tilt: 8
Axis Rotation: 70
Heavy Oil Ball: Morich Frenzy
Medium Oil Ball: Quantum Black, Magnitude 035
Light Oil Ball: Fanatic BTU, RackAttack Pearl, Black Urethane, Columbia Jazz
Preferred Company: Brunswick
Location: Seinäjoki Finland

Re: Layout guessing excel sheet. L.A.G.S.

Post by jannepalo » March 7th, 2016, 4:35 pm

I updated the excel sheet to make some kind of adjustment to pin-pap distances based on speed, revs, sweetspot, tilt and rotation. Please test and give some feedback so I can develop it further and maybe someday get it to give more correct guesses.
Janne Palo
ProShop Operator / Bowling Center Staff
Bowling Center Seinäjoki, Finland
ETBF level 1 ProShop Driller / Manager
B.E. Automation. Seinäjoki University of Applied Sciences.
Stats:
PAP 6 over 1/16 down
17 mph
425 rpm
Rotation 70
Tilt 8 dg

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jannepalo
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Posts: 42
Joined: December 14th, 2015, 10:32 pm
Positive Axis Point: 6 over 1/16 down
Speed: 17
Rev Rate: 425
Axis Tilt: 8
Axis Rotation: 70
Heavy Oil Ball: Morich Frenzy
Medium Oil Ball: Quantum Black, Magnitude 035
Light Oil Ball: Fanatic BTU, RackAttack Pearl, Black Urethane, Columbia Jazz
Preferred Company: Brunswick
Location: Seinäjoki Finland

Re: Layout guessing excel sheet. L.A.G.S.

Post by jannepalo » July 31st, 2016, 11:57 pm

I added some new stuff to L.A.G.S.

If you are interested please test and reply with your toughts.

-janne
Janne Palo
ProShop Operator / Bowling Center Staff
Bowling Center Seinäjoki, Finland
ETBF level 1 ProShop Driller / Manager
B.E. Automation. Seinäjoki University of Applied Sciences.
Stats:
PAP 6 over 1/16 down
17 mph
425 rpm
Rotation 70
Tilt 8 dg

Arkansas
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Posts: 477
Joined: January 24th, 2012, 11:02 pm
Positive Axis Point: 4 1/2 Left x 3/4 Up
Speed: 18.5 off Hand
Rev Rate: 350
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Axis Rotation: 55
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Medium Oil Ball: Guru
Light Oil Ball: Torrid Affair
Preferred Company: Radical

Re: Layout guessing excel sheet. L.A.G.S.

Post by Arkansas » August 1st, 2016, 7:41 pm

I can't get the pin to PAP to change no matter what I put in the bowler's stats?
James Talley

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EricHartwell
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Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
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Medium Oil Ball: Motiv Villain, Hammer Nail, Brunswick True Motion
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Columbia Nitrous
Location: Michigan

Re: Layout guessing excel sheet. L.A.G.S.

Post by EricHartwell » August 1st, 2016, 9:58 pm

I saw issues with the Pin to PAP distances and I had given some feedback on the totals. It would go up to extremely high totals for moderately Rev dominant or extremely low totals for moderately speed dominant. He adjusted the scaling but I think it is still a little off on the limited examples I tried with it.

I have found some issues with incorrect benchmark ratio for a speed dominant low tilt/rotation. The Ratio came out too high.

Another try was rev dominant high rotation, the totals too high and the ratio was too low.

At this point I am going to stick with my learnings and figure out layouts the way I have been doing.

jannepalo, it is getting closer. I encourage you to keep working on it.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

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jannepalo
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Member
Posts: 42
Joined: December 14th, 2015, 10:32 pm
Positive Axis Point: 6 over 1/16 down
Speed: 17
Rev Rate: 425
Axis Tilt: 8
Axis Rotation: 70
Heavy Oil Ball: Morich Frenzy
Medium Oil Ball: Quantum Black, Magnitude 035
Light Oil Ball: Fanatic BTU, RackAttack Pearl, Black Urethane, Columbia Jazz
Preferred Company: Brunswick
Location: Seinäjoki Finland

Re: Layout guessing excel sheet. L.A.G.S.

Post by jannepalo » August 19th, 2016, 8:13 pm

Thanks for replies!
The Pin-Pap distances have so many things affecting them that I haven't figured out a way to create a chart or a table or some kind of formula that would give good results. If someone has a reliable way to figure those distances out in excel please share your knowledge. :) Also the most extreme values will give less accurate results than typical specs. I'm slowly making updates to the sheet to make it better little by little.
Janne Palo
ProShop Operator / Bowling Center Staff
Bowling Center Seinäjoki, Finland
ETBF level 1 ProShop Driller / Manager
B.E. Automation. Seinäjoki University of Applied Sciences.
Stats:
PAP 6 over 1/16 down
17 mph
425 rpm
Rotation 70
Tilt 8 dg

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EricHartwell
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Posts: 3588
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Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous
Medium Oil Ball: Motiv Villain, Hammer Nail, Brunswick True Motion
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Columbia Nitrous
Location: Michigan

Re: Layout guessing excel sheet. L.A.G.S.

Post by EricHartwell » September 19th, 2016, 11:17 pm

jannepalo wrote:The sheet uses the information and charts and tables from bowlingchat wiki to get as correct values as possible but there are many serius malfunctions and errors when figuring out new layouts. Generally it is possible to use this program to to check your benchmark ratios and total sum of angles, and where your drilled balls fit in your arsenal.

Importand variables that currently need to be solved:
-Pin-Pap distances
-lane condition adjustments
-ball spesific adjustments
-ball surface adjustments
-balance hole locations

** updated 19.9.2016 **
- Program now "tries" to adjust PIN-PAP distances. Still poorly.
- Minor adjustments to rev/speed dominance tables. Matched sector now larger and sweetspot goes up slower.

** updated 1.8.2016 **
- Ball weight adjustments
- Coverstock adjustments
- THS / Sport adjustments (experimental)
- Lanetype (synthetic / wood) adjustments

The excel sheet is currently hosted and edited in google sheet enviroment. Greed fields should be editable and other fields sould be locked. Im not sure how this works on different platforms and browsers. I prefer Chrome.

Link To the sheet:

> Layout Guessing Excel Sheet. L.A.G.S. <
Just did a quick check and see much more promise. I encourage others to give it a try and give feedback.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

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Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
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Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous
Medium Oil Ball: Motiv Villain, Hammer Nail, Brunswick True Motion
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Columbia Nitrous
Location: Michigan

Re: Layout guessing excel sheet. L.A.G.S.

Post by EricHartwell » September 20th, 2016, 12:28 am

For those that haven't figured it out yet a comma is used instead of a decimal point

I decided to test an example with slightly more extreme specs

specs are:
375 rpm
20 degrees tilt
70 degree rotation
17.25 mph off of monitor 19.25 off hand

My calculations....
Benchmark 1:1.25 Ratio 80* Totals
Asymmetrical
Totally Strong.......35-4.5-25
Midlane............... 20-5-40
Benchmark.......... 35-4.5-45
Long and Strong... 55-4-45
Control............... 35-5-65


L.A.G.S. calculations.....
Benchmark 20 / 5,75 / 30
Control 35 / 5,25 / 35
Long & Strong 40 / 6 / 25
Midlane 15 / 5,75 / 15
Totally strong 10 / 5,5 / 20

Pin to PAP's are a bit extreme especially the long and strong, 6" pin to PAP is never recommended
Totals are too low
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

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Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
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Rev Rate: 330
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Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous
Medium Oil Ball: Motiv Villain, Hammer Nail, Brunswick True Motion
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Columbia Nitrous
Location: Michigan

Re: Layout guessing excel sheet. L.A.G.S.

Post by EricHartwell » September 20th, 2016, 11:04 pm

Another comparison
An example that will produce drilling angles greater than 90 if done "by the book"
Bad things happen when using drilling angles >90*, such as flaring the wrong direction.

5* tilt
70* rotation
15 mph
350 rpm

115* total 2.5:1 Ratio
Benchmark ........... 82-3-33
Control ................ 90-3-45
Long and Strong .... 90-2.5-30
Midlane ................ 65-4-30
Totally Strong ....... 70-4-25

L.A.G.S.
135* total 2:1 Ratio
Benchmark 90 / 3,5 / 45
Control 95 / 3 / 60
Long & Strong 110 / 3,75 / 45
Midlane 70 / 3,5 / 45
Totally strong 80 / 4 / 35
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

Arkansas
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Positive Axis Point: 4 1/2 Left x 3/4 Up
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Medium Oil Ball: Guru
Light Oil Ball: Torrid Affair
Preferred Company: Radical

Re: Layout guessing excel sheet. L.A.G.S.

Post by Arkansas » September 21st, 2016, 2:34 pm

EricHartwell wrote: Bad things happen when using drilling angles >90*, such as flaring the wrong direction.
How sure are you about this statement? I am under the impression that the only way to flare the wrong direction is by placing the as drilled low rg axis more than 6 3/4 from the pap. I'm trying to picture in my mind how placing the high rg > 6 3/4 from the pap is going to matter to flare direction and I can't reason it out.

I know Slowinski advocates LSL layout, with drill angle in the 135 range. He has the blueprint flare images to go with it and there's no flare issues. Of course he's using a short pin to pap, so the pap will always migrate about the low rg axis and won't flare much at all. Maybe if you had a >90* drill angle and a long pin to pap like > 6" it could happen.

Of course this all obviously only applies to asyms, as syms will always have the drilled high RG axis about the thumb for layouts with pin that aren't around the thumb.
James Talley

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Re: Layout guessing excel sheet. L.A.G.S.

Post by EricHartwell » September 21st, 2016, 4:30 pm

If the PSA is more than 6 3/4 then the opposite end of that axis (NSA) will be less than 6 3/4". The migtating axis will travel towards the line between the pin and NSA.

I could revise the statement because it could still flare away from the fingers, But it may not be flare safe for the thumb hole on higher flaring layouts because the migrating axis will move the wrong way. It will travel up above the fingers rather than across towards the grip.

It is the same theory involved with putting the Pin more than 6 3/4" from the axis. The migrating axis will travel towards the line between the opposite end of the low Rg axis I call the nPin and the PSA taking the track over the finger holes.

If the strength of the PSA is weak the thumb will pull it back towards the PAP and it may be fine. But, it is not recommended because you are leaving too much to chance.

The guidelines for the dual angle method clearly state the maximum drilling angle is to not exceed 90*. I believe it is for the reason I have tried to explain above.

If I am not correct I hope others will chime in and set me straight.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

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Re: Layout guessing excel sheet. L.A.G.S.

Post by elgavachon » October 1st, 2016, 6:00 pm

EricHartwell wrote:If the PSA is more than 6 3/4 then the opposite end of that axis (NSA) will be less than 6 3/4". The migtating axis will travel towards the line between the pin and NSA.

I could revise the statement because it could still flare away from the fingers, But it may not be flare safe for the thumb hole on higher flaring layouts because the migrating axis will move the wrong way. It will travel up above the fingers rather than across towards the grip.

It is the same theory involved with putting the Pin more than 6 3/4" from the axis. The migrating axis will travel towards the line between the opposite end of the low Rg axis I call the nPin and the PSA taking the track over the finger holes.

If the strength of the PSA is weak the thumb will pull it back towards the PAP and it may be fine. But, it is not recommended because you are leaving too much to chance.

The guidelines for the dual angle method clearly state the maximum drilling angle is to not exceed 90*. I believe it is for the reason I have tried to explain above.

If I am not correct I hope others will chime in and set me straight.
Here is a picture of what Eric is saying (note what happens with the long pin to PAP distance):
In Blueprint, the dark lines are the oil flares and the dotted lines are the dry flares. Both the 120* drilling angle layouts and the 100* with the 5 1/2" pin to PAP have the dry flares on top of the ball flaring toward the holes (backwards).
High_Drilling_Angle_Examples.jpg

taken from: viewtopic.php?t=5946" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Arkansas
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Posts: 477
Joined: January 24th, 2012, 11:02 pm
Positive Axis Point: 4 1/2 Left x 3/4 Up
Speed: 18.5 off Hand
Rev Rate: 350
Axis Tilt: 17
Axis Rotation: 55
Heavy Oil Ball: Guru Mighty
Medium Oil Ball: Guru
Light Oil Ball: Torrid Affair
Preferred Company: Radical

Re: Layout guessing excel sheet. L.A.G.S.

Post by Arkansas » October 1st, 2016, 9:54 pm

I'm going with The Kid on this one. I don't believe having the PSA > 6 3/4" or 90* will automatically cause the flare to reverse. I think the reason for the flare reversing in those images is the long pin to pap, pushing the as drilled low rg axis beyond 6 3/4".
James Talley

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Re: Layout guessing excel sheet. L.A.G.S.

Post by elgavachon » October 2nd, 2016, 4:43 am

Arkansas wrote:I'm going with The Kid on this one. I don't believe having the PSA > 6 3/4" or 90* will automatically cause the flare to reverse. I think the reason for the flare reversing in those images is the long pin to pap, pushing the as drilled low rg axis beyond 6 3/4".
I do not have blueprint, but that should be easy enough to verify if anyone following this thread does. The small yellow dot on the screenshot shows the location of the pushed Low RG (as compared to the large yellow dot. I don't know how to scale that is, but it doesn't appear to have changed much from the 80* 5 1/2 55* to the 120* 5 1/2" 55*

I checked the Blueprint Flare Study in the wiki, and all I could find was up to 90* drilling angles.

The screenshots will tell the distance from the pushed low Rg to the PAP (If anyone has access to Blueprint). Only thing I could see was that with a pin to PAP of 5 3/4" on a 55* VAL angle:
10* drilling angle = 5.82"
30* drilling angle = 5.92"
50* drilling angle = 6.23"
70* drilling angle = 6.63"
90* drilling angle = 6.56" (a decrease in Pin to PAP distance)

I don't know why the decrease for a 90* drilling angle as compared to a 70* drilling angle?

Maybe someone could check out the distance from the low RG to the PAP using the 120* 5 1/2" 55*
if they have access to it. Use a ball with a strong M.B. In the screenshot blueprint used one with .019

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jannepalo
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Posts: 42
Joined: December 14th, 2015, 10:32 pm
Positive Axis Point: 6 over 1/16 down
Speed: 17
Rev Rate: 425
Axis Tilt: 8
Axis Rotation: 70
Heavy Oil Ball: Morich Frenzy
Medium Oil Ball: Quantum Black, Magnitude 035
Light Oil Ball: Fanatic BTU, RackAttack Pearl, Black Urethane, Columbia Jazz
Preferred Company: Brunswick
Location: Seinäjoki Finland

Re: Layout guessing excel sheet. L.A.G.S.

Post by jannepalo » October 4th, 2019, 6:20 pm

I think it would be a good time to make l.a.g.s compatible with the new balance hole rules and to add more functionalaty.
One of the new ideas that I have for new version is a "benchmark differential ratio". I think this is now much more realistic concept since the balance holes are in the past.

This value would never be an actual true value but rather an idea for what direction to go to when planning ball reaction. For example high speed (17mph rel) low rev. (225rpm) player would need a diff ratio > xx value on xx lane conditions, and med speed (15,5mph) player with high revs(485rpm) should stay bethween xx-xx ratios for benhmark ball on xx lane conditions.
I would appreciate your ideas and thoughts on this Benchmark differential ratio idea.

Second idea is a benchmark surface grit. Which obviously would use all data from release specs to ball cover and lane conditions to give a suggestion or a "guess" for an area of suitable surface roughnesses f.ex 500grit to 800 grit + polish for xx bowler with xx ball on xx lanes with xx oil.(virtual neural network a.i. for calculatios..?)

-Janne
Janne Palo
ProShop Operator / Bowling Center Staff
Bowling Center Seinäjoki, Finland
ETBF level 1 ProShop Driller / Manager
B.E. Automation. Seinäjoki University of Applied Sciences.
Stats:
PAP 6 over 1/16 down
17 mph
425 rpm
Rotation 70
Tilt 8 dg

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