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 Post subject: Re: measuring span with fitting ball
 Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 11:15 pm Post Number: #21 Post
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I do have a question about the finger pitch suggestions on the fitting guide. Looks like spam dictates thumb pitch..and thumb pitch dictates the linear finger pitches. Looks like the more reverse in the thumb equals more reverse in the fingers...why is this? I would think with more reverse you would need less reverse in the fingers...or does this all go back to the span..and that is the reason for the more reverse in the fingers?

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 Post subject: Re: measuring span with fitting ball
 Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 11:23 pm Post Number: #22 Post
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Also on the lateral pitches that are derived from the fan chart......as the angle increases it looks like the lateral pitches move more to the right when the natural angle of my fingers looks like it is going to the left...it looks like this would force my hand up off the ball on the right side and force it back to the left.....can you please explain where I am in error?

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 Post subject: Re: measuring span with fitting ball
 Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 11:27 pm Post Number: #23 Post
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J_w73 wrote:
I do have a question about the finger pitch suggestions on the fitting guide. Looks like span dictates thumb pitch..and thumb pitch dictates the linear finger pitches. Looks like the more reverse in the thumb equals more reverse in the fingers...why is this? I would think with more reverse you would need less reverse in the fingers...or does this all go back to the span..and that is the reason for the more reverse in the fingers?


the length of the span dictates pitch. We're trying to achieve the same angle between a straight line drawn from the inside edge of the thumb hole to the inside edge of the finger hole and the side of each hole. Since you're drilling into a sphere, the pitch has to change to achieve this. You're probably going to have to draw a diagram to grasp the concept.


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 Post subject: Re: measuring span with fitting ball
 Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 11:30 pm Post Number: #24 Post
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J_w73 wrote:
Also on the lateral pitches that are derived from the fan chart......as the angle increases it looks like the lateral pitches move more to the right when the natural angle of my fingers looks like it is going to the left...it looks like this would force my hand up off the ball on the right side and force it back to the left.....can you please explain where I am in error?


Not true. We are trying to achieve parallel zero on the CLT. That's done by using the proper trigonometric function of the CLT expressed in degrees. It's accurate!


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 Post subject: Re: measuring span with fitting ball
 Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 11:40 pm Post Number: #25 Post
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Mo Pinel wrote:
J_w73 wrote:
Also on the lateral pitches that are derived from the fan chart......as the angle increases it looks like the lateral pitches move more to the right when the natural angle of my fingers looks like it is going to the left...it looks like this would force my hand up off the ball on the right side and force it back to the left.....can you please explain where I am in error?


Not true. We are trying to achieve parallel zero on the CLT. That's done by using the proper trigonometric function of the CLT expressed in degrees. It's accurate!


Can you elaborate a little more on that please, Mo? If you could provide the function that would be great. I'm kinda following what you're saying, but there is a slight disconnect in my brain I think. LOL! Nothing unusual, I guess. :P

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 Post subject: Re: measuring span with fitting ball
 Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 1:42 am Post Number: #26 Post
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kellytehuna wrote:
Mo Pinel wrote:
J_w73 wrote:
Also on the lateral pitches that are derived from the fan chart......as the angle increases it looks like the lateral pitches move more to the right when the natural angle of my fingers looks like it is going to the left...it looks like this would force my hand up off the ball on the right side and force it back to the left.....can you please explain where I am in error?


Not true. We are trying to achieve parallel zero on the CLT. That's done by using the proper trigonometric function of the CLT expressed in degrees. It's accurate!


Can you elaborate a little more on that please, Mo? If you could provide the function that would be great. I'm kinda following what you're saying, but there is a slight disconnect in my brain I think. LOL! Nothing unusual, I guess. :P


Get MathIsTruth to handle this. He's the mathematician and can probably explain it more clearly.


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 Post subject: Re: measuring span with fitting ball
 Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 2:54 am Post Number: #27 Post
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This one is easy. Go to Al Louie, in Pinole Valley, or Diablo. See him personally. He is advanced certified and won the Pro Shop of the Year award from IBPSIA this year. Please give him the whole story and give him copies of the threads we've done. Tell him I sent you. He can handle this. He's a GREAT fitter! Let me know how it goes.[/quote]

If you have time, try to schedule some one on one coaching with him as well. Besides being a great ball fitter, he is also a great teacher.


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 Post subject: Re: measuring span with fitting ball
 Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 8:00 am Post Number: #28 Post
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Mo Pinel wrote:
J_w73 wrote:
Also on the lateral pitches that are derived from the fan chart......as the angle increases it looks like the lateral pitches move more to the right when the natural angle of my fingers looks like it is going to the left...it looks like this would force my hand up off the ball on the right side and force it back to the left.....can you please explain where I am in error?


Not true. We are trying to achieve parallel zero on the CLT. That's done by using the proper trigonometric function of the CLT expressed in degrees. It's accurate!


I saw an info sheet,on the clt..is there something on the wiki about the clt?

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 Post subject: Re: measuring span with fitting ball
 Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 9:50 am Post Number: #29 Post
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Mo Pinel wrote:
J_w73 wrote:
I do have a question about the finger pitch suggestions on the fitting guide. Looks like span dictates thumb pitch..and thumb pitch dictates the linear finger pitches. Looks like the more reverse in the thumb equals more reverse in the fingers...why is this? I would think with more reverse you would need less reverse in the fingers...or does this all go back to the span..and that is the reason for the more reverse in the fingers?


the length of the span dictates pitch. We're trying to achieve the same angle between a straight line drawn from the inside edge of the thumb hole to the inside edge of the finger hole and the side of each hole. Since you're drilling into a sphere, the pitch has to change to achieve this. You're probably going to have to draw a diagram to grasp the concept.


Not grasping what you are saying here..not sure what I would even draw.

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 Post subject: Re: measuring span with fitting ball
 Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 2:29 pm Post Number: #30 Post
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Mo Pinel wrote:
the length of the span dictates pitch. We're trying to achieve the same angle between a straight line drawn from the inside edge of the thumb hole to the inside edge of the finger hole and the side of each hole. Since you're drilling into a sphere, the pitch has to change to achieve this. You're probably going to have to draw a diagram to grasp the concept.


Mo, Just wondering if I am close on this???

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 Post subject: Re: measuring span with fitting ball
 Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 3:04 pm Post Number: #31 Post
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roberob23 wrote:
Mo Pinel wrote:
the length of the span dictates pitch. We're trying to achieve the same angle between a straight line drawn from the inside edge of the thumb hole to the inside edge of the finger hole and the side of each hole. Since you're drilling into a sphere, the pitch has to change to achieve this. You're probably going to have to draw a diagram to grasp the concept.


Mo, Just wondering if I am close on this???

Image


WELL DONE! Thanks for the help.


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 Post subject: Re: measuring span with fitting ball
 Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 4:49 pm Post Number: #32 Post
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I get it now.. thanks for the diagram..

maybe another dumb question.. I see how the two angles for the particular ball are the same.. but is this angle we are looking for the same for every span.?? and that is the reason for the pitches in the thumb in the fingers that are based on the span.. so that we get this optimum gripping angle in all the fingers and thumb???

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 Post subject: Re: measuring span with fitting ball
 Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 5:40 pm Post Number: #33 Post
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J_w73 wrote:
I get it now.. thanks for the diagram..

maybe another dumb question.. I see how the two angles for the particular ball are the same.. but is this angle we are looking for the same for every span.?? and that is the reason for the pitches in the thumb in the fingers that are based on the span.. so that we get this optimum gripping angle in all the fingers and thumb???


I'm just going out on a limb with a guess. From what I understand, there is a pitch chart based on span, ie. as your span increases, so does the amount of reverse pitch required in the finger and thumb holes, and as the span decreases, the amount of reverse decreases as well. It was just a quick diagram to give you a visual based on Mo's post, but as you can see from the diagram thess holes are about 90* from each other, which would be equivalent to having about a 6-3/4" span as they are drawn. However if you can visualize, there is no way that your fingers could possibly bend that far if the holes were both drilled with zero pitch. But in reality I am just guessing that as the span increases, the pitches go more reverse to accomodate the flexibility of the fingers. Am I close?


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 Post subject: Re: measuring span with fitting ball
 Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 6:07 pm Post Number: #34 Post
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roberob23 wrote:
J_w73 wrote:
I get it now.. thanks for the diagram..

maybe another dumb question.. I see how the two angles for the particular ball are the same.. but is this angle we are looking for the same for every span.?? and that is the reason for the pitches in the thumb in the fingers that are based on the span.. so that we get this optimum gripping angle in all the fingers and thumb???


I'm just going out on a limb with a guess. From what I understand, there is a pitch chart based on span, ie. as your span increases, so does the amount of reverse pitch required in the finger and thumb holes, and as the span decreases, the amount of reverse decreases as well. It was just a quick diagram to give you a visual based on Mo's post, but as you can see from the diagram thess holes are about 90* from each other, which would be equivalent to having about a 6-3/4" span as they are drawn. However if you can visualize, there is no way that your fingers could possibly bend that far if the holes were both drilled with zero pitch. But in reality I am just guessing that as the span increases, the pitches go more reverse to accommodate the flexibility of the fingers. Am I close?


The "Thumb Angle Pitch Chart" in the Wiki shows the relationship between spans and the for/rev thumb pitch with accommodation for length, mainly. Finger pitches are much more individual in nature, based on the anatomy of the hand. Since the release starts when the thumb starts to clear the ball, it's the for/rev pitch of the thumb that's correctly based on the span. That is the beginning of it all.

I would like to suggest that everyone posting on "Mo and Friends" get familiar with the fitting instructions in the Wiki so we can continue these discussions in an orderly and organized manner. Please do that research if you're going to comment. We'll progress more rapidly and accurately that way. Intelligent questions are always welcomed.


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 Post subject: Re: measuring span with fitting ball
 Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 7:11 pm Post Number: #35 Post
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Mo Pinel wrote:
roberob23 wrote:
J_w73 wrote:
I get it now.. thanks for the diagram..

maybe another dumb question.. I see how the two angles for the particular ball are the same.. but is this angle we are looking for the same for every span.?? and that is the reason for the pitches in the thumb in the fingers that are based on the span.. so that we get this optimum gripping angle in all the fingers and thumb???


I'm just going out on a limb with a guess. From what I understand, there is a pitch chart based on span, ie. as your span increases, so does the amount of reverse pitch required in the finger and thumb holes, and as the span decreases, the amount of reverse decreases as well. It was just a quick diagram to give you a visual based on Mo's post, but as you can see from the diagram thess holes are about 90* from each other, which would be equivalent to having about a 6-3/4" span as they are drawn. However if you can visualize, there is no way that your fingers could possibly bend that far if the holes were both drilled with zero pitch. But in reality I am just guessing that as the span increases, the pitches go more reverse to accommodate the flexibility of the fingers. Am I close?


The "Thumb Angle Pitch Chart" in the Wiki shows the relationship between spans and the for/rev thumb pitch with accommodation for length, mainly. Finger pitches are much more individual in nature, based on the anatomy of the hand. Since the release starts when the thumb starts to clear the ball, it's the for/rev pitch of the thumb that's correctly based on the span. That is the beginning of it all.

I would like to suggest that everyone posting on "Mo and Friends" get familiar with the fitting instructions in the Wiki so we can continue these discussions in an orderly and organized manner. Please do that research if you're going to comment. We'll progress more rapidly and accurately that way. Intelligent questions are always welcomed.


Was just dipping my toes in the water to see if I can start helping out a little. I will get familiar with the fitting instructions in the wiki.


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 Post subject: Re: measuring span with fitting ball
 Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 7:15 pm Post Number: #36 Post
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roberob23 wrote:
roberob23 wrote:
J_w73 wrote:
I get it now.. thanks for the diagram..

maybe another dumb question.. I see how the two angles for the particular ball are the same.. but is this angle we are looking for the same for every span.?? and that is the reason for the pitches in the thumb in the fingers that are based on the span.. so that we get this optimum gripping angle in all the fingers and thumb???


I'm just going out on a limb with a guess. From what I understand, there is a pitch chart based on span, ie. as your span increases, so does the amount of reverse pitch required in the finger and thumb holes, and as the span decreases, the amount of reverse decreases as well. It was just a quick diagram to give you a visual based on Mo's post, but as you can see from the diagram thess holes are about 90* from each other, which would be equivalent to having about a 6-3/4" span as they are drawn. However if you can visualize, there is no way that your fingers could possibly bend that far if the holes were both drilled with zero pitch. But in reality I am just guessing that as the span increases, the pitches go more reverse to accommodate the flexibility of the fingers. Am I close?[

Mo says:

The "Thumb Angle Pitch Chart" in the Wiki shows the relationship between spans and the for/rev thumb pitch with accommodation for length, mainly. Finger pitches are much more individual in nature, based on the anatomy of the hand. Since the release starts when the thumb starts to clear the ball, it's the for/rev pitch of the thumb that's correctly based on the span. That is the beginning of it all.

I would like to suggest that everyone posting on "Mo and Friends" get familiar with the fitting instructions in the Wiki so we can continue these discussions in an orderly and organized manner. Please do that research if you're going to comment. We'll progress more rapidly and accurately that way. Intelligent questions are always welcomed.


Was just dipping my toes in the water to see if I can start helping out a little. I will get familiar with the fitting instructions in the wiki.


No problem! Jump in! The water's fine.


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 Post subject: Re: measuring span with fitting ball
 Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 7:28 pm Post Number: #37 Post
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LOL! Sorry! The last time you said those words, Mo, you got booted from BBE! LOL!

The fit instructions are very straight forward AS LONG AS YOU FOLLOW THEM! LOL! Don't cut corners or anything like. Follow them through from start to finish and you will always get a reliable base fit at the end. There will likely be some minor tweaking with pitches, but that fit should be REAL close. I've gone through the process 3 or 4 times now in the last 4 months and it works. It works.

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 Post subject: Re: measuring span with fitting ball
 Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 8:01 pm Post Number: #38 Post
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I'm going through it now..be interesting to see what al louie comes up with for my pitches..i saw what span he had but didn't see the pitches..he is just doing the finger pitches but I think I can redrill a new iT slug with some pitches in it to get to the suggested thumb pitch from the fitting guide. I think threre is room. Won't be ideal having pitch in the ball and iT slug but save me a bunch of money having to plug all my thumbs and re iT them all.

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 Post subject: Re: measuring span with fitting ball
 Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 4:27 pm Post Number: #39 Post
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Mo Pinel wrote:
J_w73 wrote:
Also on the lateral pitches that are derived from the fan chart......as the angle increases it looks like the lateral pitches move more to the right when the natural angle of my fingers looks like it is going to the left...it looks like this would force my hand up off the ball on the right side and force it back to the left.....can you please explain where I am in error?


Not true. We are trying to achieve parallel zero on the CLT. That's done by using the proper trigonometric function of the CLT expressed in degrees. It's accurate!


ok.. makes sense.. so the the suggested lateral pitches from the fan chart and the linear pitch adjustments based on the CLT angle should make the holes parallel when looking at them down the CLT...

one of my problems is that depending on how I set my hand on the ball when my thumb is inserted I can go from 16* to 32*.

Is there one that I should go with to provide a better fit??

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 Post subject: Re: measuring span with fitting ball
 Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 5:42 pm Post Number: #40 Post
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J_w73 wrote:
Mo Pinel wrote:
J_w73 wrote:
Also on the lateral pitches that are derived from the fan chart......as the angle increases it looks like the lateral pitches move more to the right when the natural angle of my fingers looks like it is going to the left...it looks like this would force my hand up off the ball on the right side and force it back to the left.....can you please explain where I am in error?


Not true. We are trying to achieve parallel zero on the CLT. That's done by using the proper trigonometric function of the CLT expressed in degrees. It's accurate!


ok.. makes sense.. so the the suggested lateral pitches from the fan chart and the linear pitch adjustments based on the CLT angle should make the holes parallel when looking at them down the CLT...

one of my problems is that depending on how I set my hand on the ball when my thumb is inserted I can go from 16* to 32*.

Is there one that I should go with to provide a better fit??


Another easy one! Put the ball on a ball cup with the gripping holes on top. Place your whole hand in the ball with the ball sitting on the ball cup. Draw a line between the fingers while the fingers are still in the ball. Remove your hand from the ball. Extend that line to pass by the thumb hole with a Pro Sect. Use the fan chart to establish the proper lateral pitches using that extended line. Now adjust for any crooked fingers. Voila! Correct lateral finger pitches.


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