Layout help
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Layout help
Wanting to purchase a new radical guru master. Need advise on a layout. Tilt is 24 degrees and rotation is 75 degrees. Pap is 3 1/2 over and 1 1/2 up. The info I have researched states the da should be smaller than the va. Ball speed is around 18 and my rev rate is approx. 275 - 300.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Clueless
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Clueless
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Re: Layout help
you seem be on the right track
I have 2 questions for you
what pattern are you bowling it on
is the speed off the hand or by speed camera down the lane
I have 2 questions for you
what pattern are you bowling it on
is the speed off the hand or by speed camera down the lane
The more I learn the more I find I have to learn
Re: Layout help
The speed is off the hand. The pattern is a made up ths with a length of 41'. Heavy concentration of oil in the middle, tapered to less on the outside. This is an Amf house.
Thanks for any input.
Clueless
Thanks for any input.
Clueless
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Re: Layout help
I would benchmark that ball for you at (30* 4.5" 50*)
but would drill it (25* 5.25" 50*) to assist further with any over under reaction and to help move the pin away from the finger hole for warranty reasons
and a balance hole to adjust the reaction and make statics legal using the gradient line method
only my opinion but im sure others will follow
but would drill it (25* 5.25" 50*) to assist further with any over under reaction and to help move the pin away from the finger hole for warranty reasons
and a balance hole to adjust the reaction and make statics legal using the gradient line method
only my opinion but im sure others will follow
The more I learn the more I find I have to learn
Re: Layout help
Is a double thumb a possibility? All the info I read indicates that it makes the ball more dynamic.
If so, same layout but DT.
Thank you.
If so, same layout but DT.
Thank you.
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Re: Layout help
The ball is already very dynamic and on a house shot you will need to control the OVER reaction to score well so the layout will help that
The more I learn the more I find I have to learn
- snick
- BCU Graduate Layouts
- Posts: 759
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- THS Average: 196
- Sport Average: 180
- Positive Axis Point: 5.5625" x .625 up
- Speed: 17 off hand
- Rev Rate: 360
- Axis Tilt: 17
- Axis Rotation: 55
- Heavy Oil Ball: Storm Physix
- Medium Oil Ball: Storm Streetfight
- Light Oil Ball: Rotogrip Hustle Pearl
- Preferred Company: Rotogrip
- Location: Tucson, AZ
Re: Layout help
There is general consensus that asymmetric cores burn tilt at approximately half the rate of symmetricals, so maybe a strong symmetrical with short pin>PAP would work better for you until you're able to reduce the axis-tilt and speed-dominance in your release.
Storm IQ Tour Nano or the new Radical Primo 40 x 3.75 x 35 (pin over the bridge for you)
Drill a balance hole on the VAL, 1.5" below the midline.
You will probably need a 4-5" pin-out ball.
Storm IQ Tour Nano or the new Radical Primo 40 x 3.75 x 35 (pin over the bridge for you)
Drill a balance hole on the VAL, 1.5" below the midline.
You will probably need a 4-5" pin-out ball.
Benchmark Bowling Pro Shop
Byron
RH
PAP: 5.5625 x .625 up
REVRATE: 360
SPEED: 17mph at release
AR: 55º
AT: 17º
Byron
RH
PAP: 5.5625 x .625 up
REVRATE: 360
SPEED: 17mph at release
AR: 55º
AT: 17º
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- Member
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- THS Average: 205
- Positive Axis Point: 5 5/8 up 3/4
- Speed: 14 mph off hand
- Rev Rate: 300
- Axis Tilt: 15
- Axis Rotation: 60
- Location: Hong Kong
Re: Layout help
Your (speed > rev) + (high AT and AR) make you a speed dominant player. Aggressive coverstock is a compensation and don't hesitate to go for more surface.
For 41 FRESH, a smaller angle sum <80 and ratio 1:1.75 to start with. PAP-PIN: asym - 4.5", sym - 3"
Benchmark
Asymmetrical - 30-4.5-50
Symmetrical - 35-3-45 (bal hole 1.5" on VAL down mid-line)
Considerations of Asym layout
1. The 4.5" PAP-PIN place the PIN to the top left hand side of MF. You need a ball with > 3.5" pin out (depends on your span);
2. The 30* drilling angle of asym may put the PSA on or below the VAL line. Revise to 35-4.5-50 and compensate with more surface, or a P3 bal hole (try the ball first before any balance hole is drilled).
Consideration of Sym layout
1. The 3" PAP-PIN may have the ring finger edge hitting the pin. Adjust to 3.75" or 4". Again a pin out ball is preferred.
2. The 35* drilling angle need a big balance hole to drag the PSA to the right. You need 2 oz of side weight and very minimal finger weight (otherwise you need to drill the fingers deeper). Anyway, start will a smaller hole and try it on the lane first. Adjust the surface. Go for a bigger or deeper hole if still don't get what you want.
If any of the suggested layouts are very different to what you have now. Try them on some old balls first.
For 41 FRESH, a smaller angle sum <80 and ratio 1:1.75 to start with. PAP-PIN: asym - 4.5", sym - 3"
Benchmark
Asymmetrical - 30-4.5-50
Symmetrical - 35-3-45 (bal hole 1.5" on VAL down mid-line)
Considerations of Asym layout
1. The 4.5" PAP-PIN place the PIN to the top left hand side of MF. You need a ball with > 3.5" pin out (depends on your span);
2. The 30* drilling angle of asym may put the PSA on or below the VAL line. Revise to 35-4.5-50 and compensate with more surface, or a P3 bal hole (try the ball first before any balance hole is drilled).
Consideration of Sym layout
1. The 3" PAP-PIN may have the ring finger edge hitting the pin. Adjust to 3.75" or 4". Again a pin out ball is preferred.
2. The 35* drilling angle need a big balance hole to drag the PSA to the right. You need 2 oz of side weight and very minimal finger weight (otherwise you need to drill the fingers deeper). Anyway, start will a smaller hole and try it on the lane first. Adjust the surface. Go for a bigger or deeper hole if still don't get what you want.
If any of the suggested layouts are very different to what you have now. Try them on some old balls first.
Adrian
Right handed
PAP: 5 1/8 up 3/4
Speed: 15.5 mph (Kegel Specto)
Rev: 350 RPM
Axis tilt: 18-20*
Axis rotation: 60*
Right handed
PAP: 5 1/8 up 3/4
Speed: 15.5 mph (Kegel Specto)
Rev: 350 RPM
Axis tilt: 18-20*
Axis rotation: 60*
- Mo Pinel
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Re: Layout help
Clueless wrote:Wanting to purchase a new radical guru master. Need advise on a layout. Tilt is 24 degrees and rotation is 75 degrees. Pap is 3 1/2 over and 1 1/2 up. The info I have researched states the da should be smaller than the va. Ball speed is around 18 and my rev rate is approx. 275 - 300.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Clueless
Because of the strength of the Guru Master, I'd recommend you drill it 35 / 4 / 45.
Rest In Peace (1942-2021)
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Re: Layout help
Mo to add to the infomation given please could you state what you would bench mark clueless at so this layout , ball and condition could be taken in contextMo Pinel wrote:
Because of the strength of the Guru Master, I'd recommend you drill it 35 / 4 / 45.
thanks for all your time and effort
The more I learn the more I find I have to learn
- Mo Pinel
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Re: Layout help
Benchmark him @ 20 / 4 1/2 /40.Libra wrote:
Mo to add to the infomation given please could you state what you would bench mark clueless at so this layout , ball and condition could be taken in context
thanks for all your time and effort
Rest In Peace (1942-2021)
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Re: Layout help
Thanks for that Mo but what am I missing
speed ( 18mph hand ) and revs of 275-300 give totals of around 90*
less 10* for the 24* of tilt and a further 5* for the 75* AOR
gives totals of 75*
tilt and AOR give ratios of around ratios of 1:2
I cant see why the your totals are so low unless the combination of the high tilt and AOR should have a larger effect
speed ( 18mph hand ) and revs of 275-300 give totals of around 90*
less 10* for the 24* of tilt and a further 5* for the 75* AOR
gives totals of 75*
tilt and AOR give ratios of around ratios of 1:2
I cant see why the your totals are so low unless the combination of the high tilt and AOR should have a larger effect
The more I learn the more I find I have to learn
- Mo Pinel
- Rest In Peace
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Re: Layout help
I'd rather miss with slightly too much hook, rather than too little. Experience! Your calculation s are good.Libra wrote:Thanks for that Mo but what am I missing
speed ( 18mph hand ) and revs of 275-300 give totals of around 90*
less 10* for the 24* of tilt and a further 5* for the 75* AOR
gives totals of 75*
tilt and AOR give ratios of around ratios of 1:2
I cant see why the your totals are so low unless the combination of the high tilt and AOR should have a larger effect
Rest In Peace (1942-2021)
- river800
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Re: Layout help
From what Mo stated, I think in this case, having a lower total with a medium pin to pap strength but adding surface and a hole will keep things more even instead of going to the extreme with just one component. The extra axis rotation will help it turn the corner so the only thing that needs to happen is to get the ball to rev up soon enough/enter the second transition properly.
There is an older gentlemen here in north ID who works as a mechanic at Sunset bowling center who has around 22* of tilt but has speed around 16 ish (off hand) and revs around 290-325 with 30-45* of rotation. Going to have him drill a original guru for a heavier house shot/sport condition with some taper. We don't see that many sport patterns with small ratios. Thinking of 50 x 4.5 x 30 with 1000/2000 with a decent P3 hole as a starting point.
Having a pap of 3 1/2 over or so and a medium pin to pap of around 4-4.5 and after drilling the finger holes, the low rg axis/pin will move to the left a bit causing a slightly longer pin to pap. Hence why no need to go to a 5" pin to pap. We just use even lower totals/surface and a BH to get a more even reacting ball not something so abrupt due to the axis rotation in this specific case.
There is an older gentlemen here in north ID who works as a mechanic at Sunset bowling center who has around 22* of tilt but has speed around 16 ish (off hand) and revs around 290-325 with 30-45* of rotation. Going to have him drill a original guru for a heavier house shot/sport condition with some taper. We don't see that many sport patterns with small ratios. Thinking of 50 x 4.5 x 30 with 1000/2000 with a decent P3 hole as a starting point.
Having a pap of 3 1/2 over or so and a medium pin to pap of around 4-4.5 and after drilling the finger holes, the low rg axis/pin will move to the left a bit causing a slightly longer pin to pap. Hence why no need to go to a 5" pin to pap. We just use even lower totals/surface and a BH to get a more even reacting ball not something so abrupt due to the axis rotation in this specific case.
Stats:
Right handed
Pap is 4 3/4 x 3/8 up currently
Speed around 16.5 off hand
Tilt in the 14-16* range
Rev rate: around 325 - 350 or so
Axis rotation in the 25-70* range
I bowl on Brunswick synthetics. Ths...
Right handed
Pap is 4 3/4 x 3/8 up currently
Speed around 16.5 off hand
Tilt in the 14-16* range
Rev rate: around 325 - 350 or so
Axis rotation in the 25-70* range
I bowl on Brunswick synthetics. Ths...
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Re: Layout help
Thanks Mo experience is the one thing you can't calculate.Mo Pinel wrote:
I'd rather miss with slightly too much hook, rather than too little. Experience! Your calculation s are good.
Now we have to wait and see what Clueless thinks once the ball is drilled
The more I learn the more I find I have to learn
Re: Layout help
WOW! Thanks for all the help. Your input is greatly appreciated. Now to take the info to my pro shop and see what he has to say about Mo's suggestion. I'm confused about a benchmark layout, why is it different than Mo's recommendation?
Our ball driller is a huge advocate for Storm products and the VLS procedure. He will undoubtedly come up with a layout according to the VLS.
I'll keep you informed about his recommendation.
Thanks again everyone for your thoughts.
Our ball driller is a huge advocate for Storm products and the VLS procedure. He will undoubtedly come up with a layout according to the VLS.
I'll keep you informed about his recommendation.
Thanks again everyone for your thoughts.
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- BCU Graduate Layouts
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Re: Layout help
Clueless just in case your driller has not got the convertion Mo's layout (35* 4" 45*)
converts to
Pin to PAP 4
PSA to PAP 3.67 (3 11/16)
Pin Buffer 2.59 (2 9/16) edit thanks john p
the benchmark layout is a good place to start before the lane patern and ball specs are thought about
the layout given by Mo ( as above ) takes into account the ball specs the lane / oil pattern specs as well as your bowling style
once it is drilled please give your opinions of the reaction as well as the layout chosen
converts to
Pin to PAP 4
PSA to PAP 3.67 (3 11/16)
Pin Buffer 2.59 (2 9/16) edit thanks john p
the benchmark layout is a good place to start before the lane patern and ball specs are thought about
the layout given by Mo ( as above ) takes into account the ball specs the lane / oil pattern specs as well as your bowling style
once it is drilled please give your opinions of the reaction as well as the layout chosen
Last edited by Libra on June 17th, 2015, 8:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
The more I learn the more I find I have to learn
- snick
- BCU Graduate Layouts
- Posts: 759
- Joined: August 31st, 2014, 8:00 pm
- THS Average: 196
- Sport Average: 180
- Positive Axis Point: 5.5625" x .625 up
- Speed: 17 off hand
- Rev Rate: 360
- Axis Tilt: 17
- Axis Rotation: 55
- Heavy Oil Ball: Storm Physix
- Medium Oil Ball: Storm Streetfight
- Light Oil Ball: Rotogrip Hustle Pearl
- Preferred Company: Rotogrip
- Location: Tucson, AZ
Re: Layout help
The linked document from the wiki contains a table of pin and PSA distances to PAP for several common drilling angles. Makes the conversion from dual angle specs to VLS simpler.
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/images ... _Guide.pdf
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/images ... _Guide.pdf
Benchmark Bowling Pro Shop
Byron
RH
PAP: 5.5625 x .625 up
REVRATE: 360
SPEED: 17mph at release
AR: 55º
AT: 17º
Byron
RH
PAP: 5.5625 x .625 up
REVRATE: 360
SPEED: 17mph at release
AR: 55º
AT: 17º
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- BCU Graduate Layouts
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Re: Layout help
Or you could just use this converter
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The more I learn the more I find I have to learn
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- Trusted Source
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Re: Layout help
Pin buffer of 2.59 is closest to 2 9/16. -- JohnP