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 Post subject: Two Handed Bowler Layout for Radical Balls
 Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 3:42 am Post Number: #1 Post
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Hello guys, I have a friend who just ordered a Grease Monkey and a Rack Atack Pearl to use on a THS league. He has been bowling 1 handed for a while and is just beginning to learn to bowl two handed style. He is being coached by a very experienced coach and has access to the advice of a local two handed pro. Still picks up his spares one handed and is fairly accurate at this using a straight plastic ball at 17 mph monitor speed.
The guy is determined and dedicated to learn this style and is progressing at a steady pace so he decided to order the two balls mentioned above (currently using plastic as he is still learning to develop speed two handed).
THS is around 41' synthetic and very slick, current specs are a boat load of rpms with a 13-14 mph monitor speed so he's extremely rev dominant for now until he can throw it the same speed as his one handed spare shot (17 mph monitor). Rotation is average, 45*-60* I guess. He is learning to roll it very well. PAP is 5 1/2" straight across with a very high track and I suspect his tilt is 10* or a bit less maybe but he doesn't clip the holes.
Balls are both 2-3" pin to cg 15 lbs, bowler doesn't use thumb two handed. I know specs are not very accurate but I was thinking total sums 120* 2:1 ratio and 5" pin to pap. Am I in the ball park with my estimates? Will these balls work now at his current speed and then later when he's developed more speed without having to plug them and change the layout or should he keep on using plastic and wait to drill them until he's bowling faster? Are those balls a good choice for him on that THS? Should he get another ball to complement these two or will he be fine with just these two?


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 Post subject: Re: Two Handed Bowler Layout for Radical Balls
 Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 2:09 pm Post Number: #2 Post
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You are starting the arsenal for a THS.
The Grease Monkey and Rack attack will work nicely with your benchmark ratio and totals
But I question the pin to PAP distances.
A 5" pin to PAP on the Rack Attack .024 diff I think is to encourage his rev dominance.
I would go with 4" Pin to PAP on both balls to make him have to roll the ball faster and/or with higher tilt to get the ball down the lane.
Use surface to match the balls up as he progresses.
When he starts to develop more speed and you cant put enough surface,
Then add to the arsenal with stronger equipment.

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 Post subject: Re: Two Handed Bowler Layout for Radical Balls
 Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 4:04 pm Post Number: #3 Post
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Hello Eric, thanks for the reply. Wow, a 4" pin seems like it would burn his tilt way too fast and I am not sure if he would be into trying to change his tilt in the short run, I know speed will come easy when he feels more confident with the legs. League starts next month and I know changing one's tilt can be uphill (my own experience, even with performance fit). The idea of changing surface as speed increases is brilliant and I believe 17 mph monitor is attainable for him. Will a 4" pin to pap work with his current low tilt and 17 mph monitor?

Also the pro shop just wants to put the cg center and just below fingers and then just set the pin to pap without drilling a thumb. Is this an ok method or is it very imprecise?

To do the 80* x ?" X 40" a thumb/balance hole must be drilled to lay out the ball, correct?
Where would be a good place to place this hole and will center of grip still be considered between finger holes? Keep in mind pin to cg on this ball is 2-3"...

Sorry for the too many questions, I just seem to have the constant need for more knowledege and this topic greatly interests me. I am strongly considering taking the BCU course just for fun.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Handed Bowler Layout for Radical Balls
 Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 4:42 pm Post Number: #4 Post
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The objective is for him to gain speed. Drill the balls too weak and he will be slowing down to roll them. Otherwise reinforce the rev dominance and go with the longer pin to PAP.

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PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: Two Handed Bowler Layout for Radical Balls
 Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 5:47 pm Post Number: #5 Post
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Got it, will advise him to go with 4" pin to pap

What is your advice on my other questions:

Also the pro shop just wants to put the cg center and just below fingers and then just set the pin to pap without drilling a thumb. Is this an ok method or is it very imprecise?

To do the 80* x 4" X 40" a thumb/balance hole must be drilled to lay out the ball, correct?
Where would be a good place to place this hole and will center of grip still be considered between finger holes? Keep in mind pin to cg on this ball is 2-3"...


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 Post subject: Re: Two Handed Bowler Layout for Radical Balls
 Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 6:07 pm Post Number: #6 Post
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I would drill the balance hole to define the drilling angle and making the reaction stronger.
This gives you reference for future balls.

I would drill the Rack Attack with an actual thumb positioning the Cg in the center of a standard 3 hole grip. Making it legal for both thumb and no thumb delivery.
The Grease Monkey kick it to the side to allow a gradient line hole to bring it back legal and make it earlier and stronger.

The easy way is to put the Cg at grip center and no thumb/balance hole. Ok if you are looking for a weaker reaction.

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PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: Two Handed Bowler Layout for Radical Balls
 Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 3:37 am Post Number: #7 Post
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Ok Eric, I read and re read your answers then I did some research and I still don't understand how to do a few things:

1. You say to drill the Rack Attack Pearl according to my calculated ratio and your recommended pin to pap (80* x 4" x 40*) and to drill it with a thumb hole aka balance hole to define drilling angle so it can be used as reference for other balls. So this one will be drilled using the same exact process as if it were to be used with the thumb in the ball referencing the bowlers PAP to the center of grip being on the center of the centerline between fingers and thumb holes. Correct?

...and if we need to make any adjustment to make the ball legal in static weights then just drill the necessary hole deeper since we can't use a balance hole as USBC would consider it a second balance hole since the thumb is not being used. Correct?

Ok, the thing that confuses me a bit is that the bowlers PAP (5 1/2" straight across) was measured from the center of the bridge. Wouldn't referencing the PAP of newly drilled ball 1 (Rack Attack Pearl) to a center of grip between the finger holes and thumbhole instead of to the center of bridge, alter his PAP location? In other words, shouldn't the PAP be measured first from say his spare ball (which has 3 holes) using the center of grip between the 3 holes instead of the center of bridge (yet obviously thrown thumbless as this is how his strike shot would be), so then this PAP measurement taken from the center of the 3 hole grip could be used in laying out ball 1 the same as any 3 hole ball?

.................................................................................................................................

2. You wrote: "The Grease Monkey kick it to the side to allow a gradient line hole to bring it back legal and make it earlier and stronger."

This one confuses me more: How do I determine where to put the cg and/or how much to kick it?
and even more confusion: How do I locate the PSA of a symmetrical ball without a thumb hole drilled so I can mark the line where a gradient hole would go?

Thank you for taking the time to read and answer my questions Eric, I really appreciate your efforts and I hope this discussion helps others who have the same questions.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Handed Bowler Layout for Radical Balls
 Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 12:48 am Post Number: #8 Post
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TonyPR wrote:
Ok Eric, I read and re read your answers then I did some research and I still don't understand how to do a few things:

1. You say to drill the Rack Attack Pearl according to my calculated ratio and your recommended pin to pap (80* x 4" x 40*) and to drill it with a thumb hole aka balance hole to define drilling angle so it can be used as reference for other balls. So this one will be drilled using the same exact process as if it were to be used with the thumb in the ball referencing the bowlers PAP to the center of grip being on the center of the centerline between fingers and thumb holes. Correct?
I would use the center of grip being the fingers only. For as long as he sticks with the thumbless that is the way it will be figured. I suggested having this one with a "thumb/balance" hole so he would still have a ball he could roll with one hand but still work well 2 handed. Just a suggestion.

...and if we need to make any adjustment to make the ball legal in static weights then just drill the necessary hole deeper since we can't use a balance hole as USBC would consider it a second balance hole since the thumb is not being used. Correct? Correct


Ok, the thing that confuses me a bit is that the bowlers PAP (5 1/2" straight across) was measured from the center of the bridge. Wouldn't referencing the PAP of newly drilled ball 1 (Rack Attack Pearl) to a center of grip between the finger holes and thumbhole instead of to the center of bridge, alter his PAP location? In other words, shouldn't the PAP be measured first from say his spare ball (which has 3 holes) using the center of grip between the 3 holes instead of the center of bridge (yet obviously thrown thumbless as this is how his strike shot would be), so then this PAP measurement taken from the center of the 3 hole grip could be used in laying out ball 1 the same as any 3 hole ball?

His PAP should be figured from center of grip, between the fingers, the bridge.
Whatever his PAP is with thumb is irrelevant, Your setting him up to be a thumb-less bowler.


.................................................................................................................................

2. You wrote: "The Grease Monkey kick it to the side to allow a gradient line hole to bring it back legal and make it earlier and stronger."

This one confuses me more: How do I determine where to put the cg and/or how much to kick it?
You have to take into consideration the top weight from the start and how large a balance hole to offset the top weight and bring the statics to within legal limits. This is when it is nice to have an experienced driller to help set it up.
and even more confusion: How do I locate the PSA of a symmetrical ball without a thumb hole drilled so I can mark the line where a gradient hole would go?
With No thumb hole the Balance hole will become a P4 balance hole and anchor the gradient line. Not that you can use the gradient line to drill any more holes it will at least be defined at that point. For a strong PSA the P4 balance hole would be 6-3/4" from the pin

Thank you for taking the time to read and answer my questions Eric, I really appreciate your efforts and I hope this discussion helps others who have the same questions.

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Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: Two Handed Bowler Layout for Radical Balls
 Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 4:11 pm Post Number: #9 Post
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Keep in mind that if you drill a thumb hole, under the new USBC static weight rule, when he uses the thumb hole to throw the ball it must meet the static weight limits based on a standard grip center to be legal. It can be very tricky getting the weights legal based on both grip centers. If he never uses the "thumb hole" it is a balance hole and the static weights are measured only using the grip center between the finger holes. -- JohnP


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 Post subject: Re: Two Handed Bowler Layout for Radical Balls
 Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 12:05 pm Post Number: #10 Post
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TonyPR wrote:
Got it, will advise him to go with 4" pin to pap

What is your advice on my other questions:

Also the pro shop just wants to put the cg center and just below fingers and then just set the pin to pap without drilling a thumb. Is this an ok method or is it very imprecise?

To do the 80* x 4" X 40" a thumb/balance hole must be drilled to lay out the ball, correct?
Where would be a good place to place this hole and will center of grip still be considered between finger holes? Keep in mind pin to cg on this ball is 2-3"...


In regards to this remark : Also the pro shop just wants to put the cg center and just below fingers and then just set the pin to pap without drilling a thumb. Is this an ok method or is it very imprecise?

That's a good method. I just recommend pin to PAP distances between 4 1/2" and 5 1/4". Closer to 4 1/2" to get the ball to corner and closer to 5 1/4" for smoother roll.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Handed Bowler Layout for Radical Balls
 Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 3:47 am Post Number: #11 Post
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Mo, would those Pin to PAPs also apply to the 80* x ?" x 40* I estimated or just to the cg at center of grip method?


CG at center of grip method without thumb hole seems simple enough and I like the fact that one can adjust reaction with a balance hole and/or surface. My buddy did a trick layout on an old Fire Road: 125* x 3 3/8" x 25* polished and no thumb hole, seems to work like a control layout for him with his high revs and low speed. This puts the cg below his fingers and the pin to the right of his RF.
Will be waiting a bit to drill the two new balls when he gets his speed up.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Handed Bowler Layout for Radical Balls
 Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 7:08 pm Post Number: #12 Post
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TonyPR wrote:
Mo, would those Pin to PAPs also apply to the 80* x ?" x 40* I estimated or just to the cg at center of grip method?


CG at center of grip method without thumb hole seems simple enough and I like the fact that one can adjust reaction with a balance hole and/or surface. My buddy did a trick layout on an old Fire Road: 125* x 3 3/8" x 25* polished and no thumb hole, seems to work like a control layout for him with his high revs and low speed. This puts the cg below his fingers and the pin to the right of his RF.
Will be waiting a bit to drill the two new balls when he gets his speed up.


Yes!


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 Post subject: Re: Two Handed Bowler Layout for Radical Balls
 Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:12 pm Post Number: #13 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:


I know this discussion is old but just in case someone comes across this when doing a search.

If you are a no thumb bowler and do not drill a thumb hole then figure your PAP using a ball with no thumb hole in it.

If you are going to drill a thumb hole then find your PAP using a ball that has a thumb hole.

I say this from experience. My original pap of 6 over 0 up or down was figured on a purple/black power groove and was taken using the grip center as if I had my thumb in the ball and the ball has a thumb hole drilled in it. When I found the PAP of my Combat Tank which does not have a thumb hole drilled in the ball it is 6 1/4 over 0 up or down using the finger holes as grip center per USBC.

The PAP migrated about 2 3/4 inches up and 1/4 inch over and I don't think this is due to the PAP being found using different balls but attribute this to having a thumb hole and not having a thumb hole.

Jason

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PAP 6 1/4 over 0 up or down. Pap figured from the center of the bridge.
Rev Rate ~450
Speed 16.5 off the hand
Axis Tilt 10 Degrees
Axis Rotation 40-50 degrees
1 Hand 2 Finger Delivery


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