Double thumb layout question.

[BlakMagic]

Mo,

Laid out a hammer plague double thumb for a gentlemen. Wanted it to hook a ton.

Without the xhole, its not as aggressive as he or I would like to see.

Static weights are

1oz side and 1/8oz fingers

Pin distance wasn't as long as I would have liked for layout.

Also fingers are not drilled deep. I thought of drilling them deeper so you could get as big of an xhole as possible?

What do you think?

Thank you!

[Adrenaline]

I had a chance to throw the Plague in a 'Try before you buy' setup at my drillers shop. The ball to me, just isn't very aggressive on it's own. I don't think it's the layout, I think it's people expecting more from the ball, than it really is. I even checked a few threads on BBE and BR and I saw a few complaints about the Plague not being what people thought it was suppose to.

As for the balance hole, Mo prefers smaller bits, deeper holes, to try and hit the core. If I recall correctly he says to start at .75" bit and 3" down, check statics, and then open the hole as much as you can while staying legal.

[BlakMagic]

That's why I was asking. If I drilled the fingers deeper I could get away with a bigger xhole.

Right now I have 1/8th oz finger weight..drilling the dbl thumb xhole I can only get away with taking out about 7/8 more of an oz..not that big of a hole.

[The Kid]

Mo has given the numbers and it IS beneficial to drill the fingers deeper to put a larger weight hole. I don't think the layout is designed to be the "most aggressive" without the weight hole. Make sure it's at least 3/4" wide and 2.5" deep. And remember that a double thumb is designed to transition the quickest (least amount of energy) and on lighter patterns can hook-stop.

Hope that's right and helpful.

[Adrenaline]

And remember that a double thumb is designed to transition the quickest (least amount of energy) and on lighter patterns can hook-stop.

I wanna get Mo's clarification on this...
When I read him talk about 'transitioning the quickest' in the past, I was always under the impression that he was referring to how fast the ball changes from skid to hook, meaning the ball transitions the quickest at the break point, not through all 3 transitions throughout the lane.

So when I read 'strongest' and Mo's definition of strongest is turning <x energy> into <y energy> I always assumed that meant the most amount of energy on the back end, is being used to go from a right side to left side ball motion (the corner/breakpoint) rather than The Kid's interpretation of it being the strongest, where the ball just makes the 2 transitions and 3 phases 'sooner' than another layout.

Can you clear that up for me Mo/Paul/Matt?

[The Kid]

Hm... Perhaps you're right.

Let's see.

But once again, you need the weight hole for the layout.

[Mo Pinel]

I wanna get Mo's clarification on this...
When I read him talk about 'transitioning the quickest' in the past, I was always under the impression that he was referring to how fast the ball changes from skid to hook, meaning the ball transitions the quickest at the break point, not through all 3 transitions throughout the lane.

So when I read 'strongest' and Mo's definition of strongest is turning <x energy> into <y energy> I always assumed that meant the most amount of energy on the back end, is being used to go from a right side to left side ball motion (the corner/breakpoint) rather than The Kid's interpretation of it being the strongest, where the ball just makes the 2 transitions and 3 phases 'sooner' than another layout.

Can you clear that up for me Mo/Paul/Matt?

Transitioning the quickest means thru ALL the transitions. I have scientifically defined "strongest" in previous posts. It has nothing to do with back end. The "strongest" ball rolls at your toes and stops.

[Adrenaline]

Transitioning the quickest means thru ALL the transitions. I have scientifically defined "strongest" in previous posts. It has nothing to do with back end. The "strongest" ball rolls at your toes and stops.

So... am I to understand that a Double Thumbed, 60x4x30 ball, will roll sooner and quicker through transitions, than an identical ball drill 10x3 3/8x20?

[The Kid]

I think I remember reading the reasons why this is true:

1) The weight hole and thumb hole being where they are in relation to the High RG axis (MB/PSA) increase the RG profile, which in turn increases the diff. and intermediate diff.

This basically means more flare (sooner first transition) and more snap (sooner second transition).

2) The "strength" of the layout typically moves the PAP a bit closer to the grip center than on a benchmark reactive ball/layout. This changes the effective layout closer to 60*x3 3/8"x20*

I unfortunately don't keep a record of when, where, and what exactly Mo says, but I think that's the gist of the layout. Could've also mixed some thoughts.

I never know if I make what I'm saying clear either, so I apologize if it's nonsense.

[kellytehuna]

The strength of Double Thumb layout is really in its quick response to friction, which means the layout is almost all back end! It will roll fairly well mid lane, but it's will respond really quickly to friction due to the huge increases in both diffs and the diff ratio.

10° / 3 3/8" / 20° will hook at your toes and roll out before it even clears the oil pattern! LOL! I'd be fascinated to try that layout! LOL! Just to see what it does! It wouldn't be pretty I'm sure.

[roberob23]

BlakMagic, did this ever get resolved? Was anything done to get the Plague rolling the way the customer wanted? Did it end up just being condition specific, ie. he was bowling on too dry of lanes or anything like that?

I'm just curious because I just picked one up, and I have yet to drill it. I got a recommendation for the drilling from Mo, and was just wondering what ever happened with this...

[Mo Pinel]

So... am I to understand that a Double Thumbed, 60x4x30 ball, will roll sooner and quicker through transitions, than an identical ball drill 10x3 3/8x20?

[roberob23]

So... am I to understand that a Double Thumbed, 60x4x30 ball, will roll sooner and quicker through transitions, than an identical ball drill 10x3 3/8x20?

MO, I was really trying to see if BlakMagic got his customer happier with the Plague's reaction. I still have heard very little about this ball and I am looking for opinions and feedback.

[BlakMagic]

Rober,

I think the ball is a great ball from what I have seen in other peoples hands. With this particular customer he has purchased some other high-end balls before and not received a desirable reaction (hook a lot). With that being said I decided to try a double thumb with him.

Without the weight-hole it was not what he wanted. I believe we will add the weight-hole today and hopefully that really adds to the ball reaction.

Will let you know as soon as he throws it!

[Mo Pinel]

I had a chance to throw the Plague in a 'Try before you buy' setup at my drillers shop. The ball to me, just isn't very aggressive on it's own. I don't think it's the layout, I think it's people expecting more from the ball, than it really is. I even checked a few threads on BBE and BR and I saw a few complaints about the Plague not being what people thought it was suppose to.

As for the balance hole, Mo prefers smaller bits, deeper holes, to try and hit the core. If I recall correctly he says to start at .75" bit and 3" down, check statics, and then open the hole as much as you can while staying legal.

I agree with you. It's typical of covers from Hopkinsville. I'd test it directly against a Mission with the same layout and the same surface to get a better picture of what it is. Test it on a more challenging pattern as well as a THS to get the real picture. I like to test on Chameleon.

[roberob23]

Rober,

I think the ball is a great ball from what I have seen in other peoples hands. With this particular customer he has purchased some other high-end balls before and not received a desirable reaction (hook a lot). With that being said I decided to try a double thumb with him.

Without the weight-hole it was not what he wanted. I believe we will add the weight-hole today and hopefully that really adds to the ball reaction.

Will let you know as soon as he throws it!

BlakMagic, that would be much appreciated. I bought this ball about 2 weeks ago and have not drilled it up yet. Came across 2 guys in another house that were throwing it and loved it, but both are real crankers, so I couldn't get a good read on what the ball is capable of. I bowl more like a stroker, but have the speed and revs of a tweener, so I am hoping to run across some moderate rev guys that are throwing it too see what they think. I'm just over thinking things like how I'm going to drill it up when I get the chance. I guess I'm just hoping I find out the ball doesn't need an extremely aggressive drill to perform well on med-heavy oil. So you say you layed it out for the Double-Thumb, but didn't drill the extra hole because the ball was legal as is, and it's just not covering as many boards as your customer wants? I notice you said he's bought a few balls lately, and hasn't gotten the desired reaction... Operator Error??? =)

I agree with you. It's typical of covers from Hopkinsville. I'd test it directly against a Mission with the same layout and the same surface to get a better picture of what it is. Test it on a more challenging pattern as well as a THS to get the real picture. I like to test on Chameleon.

Mo, can you go into a little more detail and clarify this please? Do you feel that Hammer is just not putting out the most aggressive covers on the market? You feel that a Mission would be a good ball to benchmark the Plague against? Anyone out there have a Mission and a Plague or would be willing to pit one against the other and provide some feedback?
Thanks your your input.

[Mo Pinel]

BlakMagic, that would be much appreciated. I bought this ball about 2 weeks ago and have not drilled it up yet. Came across 2 guys in another house that were throwing it and loved it, but both are real crankers, so I couldn't get a good read on what the ball is capable of. I bowl more like a stroker, but have the speed and revs of a tweener, so I am hoping to run across some moderate rev guys that are throwing it too see what they think. I'm just over thinking things like how I'm going to drill it up when I get the chance. I guess I'm just hoping I find out the ball doesn't need an extremely aggressive drill to perform well on med-heavy oil. So you say you layed it out for the Double-Thumb, but didn't drill the extra hole because the ball was legal as is, and it's just not covering as many boards as your customer wants? I notice you said he's bought a few balls lately, and hasn't gotten the desired reaction... Operator Error??? =)
Mo, can you go into a little more detail and clarify this please? Do you feel that Hammer is just not putting out the most aggressive covers on the market? You feel that a Mission would be a good ball to benchmark the Plague against? Anyone out there have a Mission and a Plague or would be willing to pit one against the other and provide some feedback?
Thanks your your input.

As far as I've seen, the Ebonite companies do not have the "super" covers available at Storm, Roto Grip, Brunswick, MoRich, and 900 Global. In my opinion, the Mission has the best core/cover combination from Hopkinsville that I've seen. It would be the best to compare to. We'd then know how it compares to their available covers.

[BlakMagic]

Well to make a long story short. Older gentlemen runs the proshop I speak of.

He looks at the drill sheets that come with balls..and tries to put pin/cg/mb in a similar location as picture. Or something of that sort.

So he has done this with a few of the balls for the guy I laid out the plauge for. I took the time to find his pap and actually measure some of his other balls. I think his playmaker was like 110degrees x 5" x 15??????

Anyways..he wanted this ball to "hook" so I decided to try a double thumb. Again its his proshop so I made the recommendation, laid it out, and he followed it. Not knowing how strong it would or wouldn't be I wanted him to throw it a few times without the xhole. It wasn't that strong, so now its sitting in a box..with xhole location and depth and bit size drawn on it (by me) waiting for a hole.

We did just get a "new" drill press..an upgrade from a sidewinder...so instead of letting me give him a 20minute tutorial on how to use a stand up he has spent a week drilling 200 holes into like 4 old balls to figure it out himself.

Great guy, didn't keep up with the times and technology change, and that's resulting in a pretty big disservice to his customers. IMO

I know the xhole will make it stronger, however I do not think the ball will be as strong as what he wanted. Time will tell....

[Mo Pinel]

Well to make a long story short. Older gentlemen runs the proshop I speak of.

He looks at the drill sheets that come with balls..and tries to put pin/cg/mb in a similar location as picture. Or something of that sort.

So he has done this with a few of the balls for the guy I laid out the plauge for. I took the time to find his pap and actually measure some of his other balls. I think his playmaker was like 110degrees x 5" x 15??????

Anyways..he wanted this ball to "hook" so I decided to try a double thumb. Again its his proshop so I made the recommendation, laid it out, and he followed it. Not knowing how strong it would or wouldn't be I wanted him to throw it a few times without the xhole. It wasn't that strong, so now its sitting in a box..with xhole location and depth and bit size drawn on it (by me) waiting for a hole.

We did just get a "new" drill press..an upgrade from a sidewinder...so instead of letting me give him a 20minute tutorial on how to use a stand up he has spent a week drilling 200 holes into like 4 old balls to figure it out himself.

Great guy, didn't keep up with the times and technology change, and that's resulting in a pretty big disservice to his customers. IMO

I know the xhole will make it stronger, however I do not think the ball will be as strong as what he wanted. Time will tell....

Sounds like an accurate analysis. The balance hole will be necessary to help offset the weaker cover. Good luck. Resolve this and then you can tackle easy things like world peace and the economy.