Layout Question

Which layout is right for me?

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river800
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Re: Layout Question

Post by river800 »

rf67pccb wrote:The sport shot I was referring to was the Slowinski comfort catalyst and was very tough.

I checked the static weight on the REAX v2 solid and the side weight was 2 ounces. I drilled a 1" p2.5 balance hole and I am very happy with the shape and reaction. This ball fits between the Strike King and Wicked Siege. I am still not sure how the Punch Out will work out as I have not seen very good carry on 40 foot 10-10 THS.

I am surprised how the REAX clears the front and the nice move down lane. I guess I was thinking it would be something that would be slightly below the SK. At practice today on fresh the SK was not enough but the REAX was just right. Thanks for the layout and balance hole info.

I ended up putting a smallish P1 hole in the Punch Out and that may have been a mistake. I likely will plug the balance hole and rethink. I have tried several different surfaces and did not care for the ball motion and lack of carry.
It sounds like you need to start with a small P3 hole in the punch out, start with a 4000 pad. Should read the lane a bit better with both changes. It sounds like to me the surface prep on the reax V 2 pearl, the punch out and strike king will determine how far apart or how close they will be to each other.

Does the wick siege seem to read a bit early, or is it stronger towards the end of the pattern?
Stats:
Right handed
Pap is 4 3/4 x 3/8 up currently
Speed around 16.5 off hand
Tilt in the 14-16* range
Rev rate: around 325 - 350 or so
Axis rotation in the 25-70* range
I bowl on Brunswick synthetics. Ths...
rf67pccb
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Re: Layout Question

Post by rf67pccb »

I will plug and P3 the Punch Out this week and add 4000 surface to try out Friday on fresh practice.

(I really need something above the SK at this point) and hopefully the Punch Out will fit the bill.

The benchmark Wicked Siege covers more boards overall and on our THS that is not where you want to be. After adding the P2.5 to the REAX on Friday it was perfect. I plan on starting out with it Monday in league.

Bowled a modified THS doubles tournament in Chattanooga today and every piece of equipment except the SK was to much. The SK labored at times so something a notch above would be good. Shot 193-255-235 but pretty much roped shots to the pocket.

The SK control drill pin in RF can I add a motion hole? Just thinking!!!!
Rorey Faiola
--------------
Right Handed
Speed 16.6 Off Hand
AT 12
AR 80
RR 300
PAP 4 7/8 Over 7/8 Up
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EricHartwell
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Location: Michigan

Re: Layout Question

Post by EricHartwell »

With the Cg kind of close to the centerline, the ring finger drilled deeper to balance the statics,
yes you could add a MOhole to the Strike King.

I would recommend drilling a ball specific for the Mohole, remember the Vibe experiment you had already.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
rf67pccb
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Re: Layout Question

Post by rf67pccb »

Hopefully you guys have some suggestions for a friend of mine. He basically runs to the line and gets the ball down real early usually behind the foul line or close. He is currently throwing Brunswick but says he is open to any ball. He only bowls at one house THS 10-10 very dry out 39-40 feet 20 year old synthetics using Fire conditioner. Not sure what he is currently throwing but it has no hitting power. Any change would be good for him and his confidence.

Specs:

PAP 5 over 1/2 up
AR 70
AT 10
SP 17.4
RR 135
Rorey Faiola
--------------
Right Handed
Speed 16.6 Off Hand
AT 12
AR 80
RR 300
PAP 4 7/8 Over 7/8 Up
User avatar
EricHartwell
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Posts: 4080
Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer
Location: Michigan

Re: Layout Question

Post by EricHartwell »

rf67pccb wrote:Hopefully you guys have some suggestions for a friend of mine. He basically runs to the line and gets the ball down real early usually behind the foul line or close. He is currently throwing Brunswick but says he is open to any ball. He only bowls at one house THS 10-10 very dry out 39-40 feet 20 year old synthetics using Fire conditioner. Not sure what he is currently throwing but it has no hitting power. Any change would be good for him and his confidence.

Specs:

PAP 5 over 1/2 up
AR 70
AT 10
SP 17.4
RR 135
Very speed dominant low tilt high rotation
Asymmetrical Benchmark.......45-4.5-30 P2

Asymmetrical Control.............45-4-45
Symmetrical long and strong...double thumb

I realize it seems kind of funny saying the Double thumb as a long and strong layout but when someone is that speed dominant, that is what you end up with.

The Control and long and strong layouts work well for THS conditions.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
rf67pccb
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Joined: October 20th, 2014, 12:13 am
Positive Axis Point: 4 7/8 over 7/8 up
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Rev Rate: 300
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 70
Preferred Company: Radical and Roto Grip

Re: Layout Question

Post by rf67pccb »

What would the angle layouts come out on the symmetrical long and strong and symmetrical control and what balls might you suggest for him maybe in the Brunswick line to start?

Also, he seems to drop the ball so I might suggest a wiki fit to see how close his span and pitches are and go from there. Thanks for the info.
Rorey Faiola
--------------
Right Handed
Speed 16.6 Off Hand
AT 12
AR 80
RR 300
PAP 4 7/8 Over 7/8 Up
JohnP
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Re: Layout Question

Post by JohnP »

rf67pccb wrote:Hopefully you guys have some suggestions for a friend of mine. He basically runs to the line and gets the ball down real early usually behind the foul line or close. He is currently throwing Brunswick but says he is open to any ball. He only bowls at one house THS 10-10 very dry out 39-40 feet 20 year old synthetics using Fire conditioner. Not sure what he is currently throwing but it has no hitting power. Any change would be good for him and his confidence.

Specs:

PAP 5 over 1/2 up
AR 70
AT 10
SP 17.4
RR 135
The best advice I can give him is to spend his money on some good coaching and practice before buying a new ball. -- JohnP
Last edited by JohnP on March 5th, 2015, 9:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
rf67pccb
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Preferred Company: Radical and Roto Grip

Re: Layout Question

Post by rf67pccb »

That certainly is good advise. However, a high percentage of these guys will not take the time to either practice or get with a coach. I am committed to doing both even though I am almost 68 years old. I have used input from this site and have had teaching sessions with the likes of John May last year. My knowledge and results have been very satisfying and I continue to build my personal arsenal for both league and tournament play.

That being said I am attempting to help them as best I can using the expertise of others on this great forum. The info I was seeking was for an older gentleman that does very limited practice if any at all. I was hoping that with equipment and layouts that matched his game that he might at least maximize that aspect.

I will give him the afore mentioned asymmetric layout info but was hoping to give him actual symmetric angle data also. Thanks again.
Rorey Faiola
--------------
Right Handed
Speed 16.6 Off Hand
AT 12
AR 80
RR 300
PAP 4 7/8 Over 7/8 Up
JohnP
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Posts: 3432
Joined: January 31st, 2010, 1:04 am
Positive Axis Point: 15 15/16 x 3/16
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Axis Tilt: 13
Axis Rotation: 45
Location: Hawesville KY/Tell City IN

Re: Layout Question

Post by JohnP »

What weight ball is he using? You said "older gentleman", that implies to me a 12 or 13 lb ball which results in weak hits. River800 did give a symmetrical suggestion - double thumb, which is the strongest layout for a symmetrical ball. The procedure is outlined in the link below. The video is on this page and there's a link to the written procedure. Also, don't neglect surface adjustments and de-oiling his ball. -- JohnP

http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... umb_Layout" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
rf67pccb
Member
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Posts: 200
Joined: October 20th, 2014, 12:13 am
Positive Axis Point: 4 7/8 over 7/8 up
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Rev Rate: 300
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 70
Preferred Company: Radical and Roto Grip

Re: Layout Question

Post by rf67pccb »

Thanks for the info. I am not sure what weight he is using but I will find out. I think double thumb might be good for him but I will discuss options with him next week. Thanks for the great input. I find everything is a great learning experience.
Rorey Faiola
--------------
Right Handed
Speed 16.6 Off Hand
AT 12
AR 80
RR 300
PAP 4 7/8 Over 7/8 Up
rf67pccb
Member
Member
Posts: 200
Joined: October 20th, 2014, 12:13 am
Positive Axis Point: 4 7/8 over 7/8 up
Speed: 16.6 Camera
Rev Rate: 300
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 70
Preferred Company: Radical and Roto Grip

Re: Layout Question

Post by rf67pccb »

I put the P3 hole in the Punch Out and started to add surface (1000) and the ball has more hit now. Not sure where the final surface will be. Now it seems to fit just above the REAX.

So now it appears that my progression would be SK, REAX, Punch Out and Wicked Siege.

I am still wondering if I should purchase the Rocket and drill at 70x4x40. How do you guys think this would fit in my arsenal? Or should I just stay where I am?
Rorey Faiola
--------------
Right Handed
Speed 16.6 Off Hand
AT 12
AR 80
RR 300
PAP 4 7/8 Over 7/8 Up
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river800
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Re: Layout Question

Post by river800 »

rf67pccb wrote:I put the P3 hole in the Punch Out and started to add surface (1000) and the ball has more hit now. Not sure where the final surface will be. Now it seems to fit just above the REAX.

So now it appears that my progression would be SK, REAX, Punch Out and Wicked Siege.

I am still wondering if I should purchase the Rocket and drill at 70x4x40. How do you guys think this would fit in my arsenal? Or should I just stay where I am?
Try 1000/4000 on the punch out.

This is your current arsenal.

Wicked Siege 55x3.5x35 if we take this ball out of play for the house shot then the Rocket could fit here
Reax V2 pearl 75x2.25x50
Punch Out 80x4.25x50 P3 hole with 2000 4 sides/4000 2 sides surface
Strike King 80x4.25x50
Vibe motion Hole
Plastic

Ok, so the punch out now reads the friction harder than the reax 2 pearl which is due to the P3 hole. The strike king is smoother off the spot under this ball then the vibe that is longer and as smooth.

Drill a storm Rocket XX x 3.75 x 40 with the cg in a spot to allow the use of like a P3 hole if needed so at least 1/2 ounce of side and some thumb is ok. Try 500 2 sides/2000 4 sides surface as a starting point. Would handle a bit more oil than the Reax V 2 pearl if this ball wasn't enough for the fresh. Put the reax 2 pearl at 2000 4 sides/4000 2 sides.
Stats:
Right handed
Pap is 4 3/4 x 3/8 up currently
Speed around 16.5 off hand
Tilt in the 14-16* range
Rev rate: around 325 - 350 or so
Axis rotation in the 25-70* range
I bowl on Brunswick synthetics. Ths...
rf67pccb
Member
Member
Posts: 200
Joined: October 20th, 2014, 12:13 am
Positive Axis Point: 4 7/8 over 7/8 up
Speed: 16.6 Camera
Rev Rate: 300
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 70
Preferred Company: Radical and Roto Grip

Re: Layout Question

Post by rf67pccb »

So I have equipment that I can basically play the oil line on THS 40 feet with heavy hump 10-10. I am still thinking about the Rocket but would like to play in and open the lane up. I have attempted this approach with my current arsenal but the look is not good with no continuation down lane. For my stats how would I set up the Rocket for this or would a stronger ball such as the Crux be a better choice.

Not sure if a weak ball drilled stronger would work on the heavier inside conditioner. I tried in with the Wicked Siege but it labored to finish. It seems all of my arsenal now lends itself to playing more direct. Usually this is ok but the occasional big sets are not happening. Carry is extremely infy from time to time.

I would say I have averaged 220-225 since I rebuilt my arsenal but I am pinned on the oil line and wish I had something to make a giant move in. Any suggestions?
Rorey Faiola
--------------
Right Handed
Speed 16.6 Off Hand
AT 12
AR 80
RR 300
PAP 4 7/8 Over 7/8 Up
rf67pccb
Member
Member
Posts: 200
Joined: October 20th, 2014, 12:13 am
Positive Axis Point: 4 7/8 over 7/8 up
Speed: 16.6 Camera
Rev Rate: 300
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 70
Preferred Company: Radical and Roto Grip

Re: Layout Question

Post by rf67pccb »

Would 70x4x40 or xx-4x40 still fall within the realm of control drilling? I am going to Nationals next month and Mo discusses using stronger core control drills. Rocket?) Also, I had previously asked about a layout for me that would allow moving way inside and circle the huge hump. My arsenal does not allow this currently as everything is basically DOA. Do I need a longer pin or smaller Val angle? Just wondering. I have tried a myriad of surface adjustments. Thanks again for the quality info.
Rorey Faiola
--------------
Right Handed
Speed 16.6 Off Hand
AT 12
AR 80
RR 300
PAP 4 7/8 Over 7/8 Up
User avatar
EricHartwell
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Posts: 4080
Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer
Location: Michigan

Re: Layout Question

Post by EricHartwell »

I would not consider 4" pin to PAP and 1.75:1 ratio a control drilling for you its closer to a benchmark

If you going to drill up the Rocket for nationals I would go xx-5-40 1000 grit surface. Otherwise go with Mo's recommendations in his article

Mo recommended lower flaring layouts on stronger balls with surface

viewtopic.php?f=13&p=84298#p84298" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

cut and pasted from RADICAL APPROACH TO THE 2015 OPEN CHAMPIONSHIPS

"As a recap, I am recommending balls with stronger cores using low flare layouts and surface in order to achieve predictable ball motion and improved pin carry."

As far as a ball/layout for getting left and circling the huge hump.
Go with a strong Asymmetrical ball 75-3-35
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
rf67pccb
Member
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Joined: October 20th, 2014, 12:13 am
Positive Axis Point: 4 7/8 over 7/8 up
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Re: Layout Question

Post by rf67pccb »

Thanks Eric.....I think I will drill a strong Asymmetrical (Crux) and a (Rocket) to fit above my SK. I have some surface changes to try now that a coach here has the scanner to read it. What I thought I had was incorrect. If you do not stay on top of surface everything ends up at 4500-5000 due to ball wheel and lane shine after only a few games. I have learned to sand with light pressure and do not create heat as that diminishes the RA.
Rorey Faiola
--------------
Right Handed
Speed 16.6 Off Hand
AT 12
AR 80
RR 300
PAP 4 7/8 Over 7/8 Up
rf67pccb
Member
Member
Posts: 200
Joined: October 20th, 2014, 12:13 am
Positive Axis Point: 4 7/8 over 7/8 up
Speed: 16.6 Camera
Rev Rate: 300
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 70
Preferred Company: Radical and Roto Grip

Re: Layout Question

Post by rf67pccb »

Drilled the Rocket today 70x4x40 and I am happy with the look it gives me. 3-4 boards stronger than my Punch Out with strong continuation. I think it is a very nice piece for my arsenal although I only have a 3 game sample (279/732). Another example of this sites expertise from Eric, River, John P. et al. Thanks guys!
Rorey Faiola
--------------
Right Handed
Speed 16.6 Off Hand
AT 12
AR 80
RR 300
PAP 4 7/8 Over 7/8 Up
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river800
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Re: Layout Question

Post by river800 »

rf67pccb wrote:Drilled the Rocket today 70x4x40 and I am happy with the look it gives me. 3-4 boards stronger than my Punch Out with strong continuation. I think it is a very nice piece for my arsenal although I only have a 3 game sample (279/732). Another example of this sites expertise from Eric, River, John P. et al. Thanks guys!
Glad to hear this!

So the question now is, are you getting a crux or a crux pearl? With your axis rotation I am leaning towards the crux hybrid, but it is up to you on what pattern or patterns you see yourself using one of the crux balls on.
Stats:
Right handed
Pap is 4 3/4 x 3/8 up currently
Speed around 16.5 off hand
Tilt in the 14-16* range
Rev rate: around 325 - 350 or so
Axis rotation in the 25-70* range
I bowl on Brunswick synthetics. Ths...
rf67pccb
Member
Member
Posts: 200
Joined: October 20th, 2014, 12:13 am
Positive Axis Point: 4 7/8 over 7/8 up
Speed: 16.6 Camera
Rev Rate: 300
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 70
Preferred Company: Radical and Roto Grip

Re: Layout Question

Post by rf67pccb »

I now believe that I have a complete arsenal on house shots around here. During the next month I will see if I can play on some other THS centers and the National patterns. The article from Mo states strong core and low flare layouts.

Also I will try a South Carolina flat pattern singles event in early May. Maybe the Crux family is to strong but I will analyze further after next month. The Rocket seems to be the strongest ball for me currently. For Fridays practice I was standing on 33 board (THS) and I would not want to get much deeper. With the Punch Out I was standing on 30 after 12 games of play, so I think they compliment each other. I had asked about opening the lane up and the Rocket seems to do that at least at one local center.

Even on THS it is mandatory to match up if you want to score. I am learning which piece of equipment to throw on a given league night. For the first time in many years I have choices to make to maximize carry. Before I was afraid to make changes because I was hitting the 1-3, however I will now make changes prior to the end of game 1 if needed.

This is my 60th year of bowling and my knowledge and game has expanded a lot during the last year with help from this sites experts. Thanks again to all!
Rorey Faiola
--------------
Right Handed
Speed 16.6 Off Hand
AT 12
AR 80
RR 300
PAP 4 7/8 Over 7/8 Up
User avatar
river800
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Re: Layout Question

Post by river800 »

Glad to hear this!! I know this has taken some time, but there has been wayyy more progress though overall :)
Stats:
Right handed
Pap is 4 3/4 x 3/8 up currently
Speed around 16.5 off hand
Tilt in the 14-16* range
Rev rate: around 325 - 350 or so
Axis rotation in the 25-70* range
I bowl on Brunswick synthetics. Ths...
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