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 Post subject: Layout Question
 Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 2:50 am Post Number: #1 Post
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If I layout a ball for me roughly 80x4.25x40 on a symmetrical ball anticipating using the motion hole with the pin above the ring finger. What other hole options would be possible after drilling? Assuming 2-3" pin out and 2.2-2.7 top weight prior to drill. My PAP is 4 7/8 and 7/8 up.

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 Post subject: Re: Layout Question
 Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 1:27 am Post Number: #2 Post
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All balance holes would be an option by drilling the fingers deeper. The Size of low balance holes would be limited.

When considering the MOtion hole your looking for length with backend. Low balance hole such as P3 or double thumb hole are going to give you earlier reactions. Completely different reactions from the MOhole.

What are your release specs?
Are you concerned that the initial layout isn't going to hook soon enough?
What ball are you thinking of putting a MOhole in?

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 Post subject: Re: Layout Question
 Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 2:25 am Post Number: #3 Post
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I am in an interesting position. I am 67 years old and my speed had dropped considerably so I had an old 14# Vibe with a motion hole that I tried out of frustration. I measured it at 30x5 1/2x60 and have had success with it. Increased ball speed at + 3 mph. It works reasonably well on THS but carry is marginal at times. Not even sure about the static weights. Misses in can lead to weak splits.

I am scheduled to meet with a coach this Friday to measure all delivery specs via computer program. I will post that info soon thereafter so you might analyze what I might need. We will be validating all specs including a recheck of my PAP.

Hopefully, when all the data is collected I can drill up a new arsenal that matches up. I am open to any and all equipment ideas you might have for me.

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 Post subject: Re: Layout Question
 Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 2:48 am Post Number: #4 Post
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30x5 1/2x60 doesnt sound right for a Motion hole layout. Did you switch the drilling angle and VAL angle? 60-5.5-30 would put the pin above the fingers with the Cg lined up in the grip.

I will keep my eyes open for when you post your updated specs. Use this same post and it will show up in my my post list and pretty much guarantee I will see it.

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 Post subject: Re: Layout Question
 Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 9:35 pm Post Number: #5 Post
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You are correct...The pin in near center 1 1/2" above fingers...CG close to center. It may not have been perfect for Mohole but I did it anyway. A lot of frustration on my part.

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 Post subject: Re: Layout Question
 Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 7:42 pm Post Number: #6 Post
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Got all of my specs rechecked today. Please help I am bowling on THS that is lower volume 39 feet basic 10-10 19 year old synthetics.

AT 12 Degrees
AR 80 Degrees
RR 290
SP 16.6 Off Hand
PAP 4 7/8 7/8 Up

Eric and others:

I have a 14# Strike King to drill 2-3 Pin 2.7 Top Weight

Any ideas????? For Symmetrical and Asymmetrical?

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 Post subject: Re: Layout Question
 Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 11:52 pm Post Number: #7 Post
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rf67pccb wrote:
Got all of my specs rechecked today. Please help I am bowling on THS that is lower volume 39 feet basic 10-10 19 year old synthetics.

AT 12 Degrees
AR 80 Degrees
RR 290
SP 16.6 Off Hand
PAP 4 7/8 7/8 Up

Eric and others:

I have a 14# Strike King to drill 2-3 Pin 2.7 Top Weight

Any ideas????? For Symmetrical and Asymmetrical?


For a Benchmark type reaction your original idea 80x4.25x40 Pin above the ring finger with balance hole options for more length.

I would recommend putting the pin in the ring finger.
~80-4.25-55, A control layout with balance hole options to make the ball stronger/earlier.

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PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
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 Post subject: Re: Layout Question
 Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2014 12:31 am Post Number: #8 Post
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I will try that....so are my ratios for benchmark 2:1? The Strike King is high rg low diff on a stronger ball what options would you suggest. Thanks for your help.

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 Post subject: Re: Layout Question
 Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2014 1:06 am Post Number: #9 Post
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Your benchmark ratio would be 1.5:1 for Asymmetrical balls. 55-3.5-35
The ratio for symmetrical balls would be to 2:1, 60-4-30
The actual benchmark is a strong reaction on a THS. Probably too strong in this case

Layout for a stronger ball, I would recommend a flare reducing layout that might look like 80-5.5-45 Symmetrical, 75-2.25-50 Asym

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PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
65* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: Layout Question
 Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2014 1:11 am Post Number: #10 Post
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Thanks...That is wonderful info...I know my specs might be a challenge. I am looking forward to rebuilding my arsenal very soon and trying several surface changes.

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 Post subject: Re: Layout Question
 Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2014 12:38 pm Post Number: #11 Post
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eric,

so, are motion holes in p1, p2 quadrants for length? I have a ball that sets up too early and was lookin for an easy way to add more length before roll phase to this ball. note rev rate approx 360ish.
EricHartwell wrote:
All balance holes would be an option by drilling the fingers deeper. The Size of low balance holes would be limited.

When considering the MOtion hole your looking for length with backend. Low balance hole such as P3 or double thumb hole are going to give you earlier reactions. Completely different reactions from the MOhole.

What are your release specs?
see below in sig

What ball are you thinking of putting a MOhole in?
MoRich Frenzy

thx

rr

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Ser-1075-4gm, 867-3gm
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 Post subject: Re: Layout Question
 Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2014 8:21 pm Post Number: #12 Post
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P1 for Asymmetrical
P2/Axis for Symmetrical
Are the recommendations to reduce flare and get more length.

What is the existing layout on the Frenzy?

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PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
65* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: Layout Question
 Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 1:22 am Post Number: #13 Post
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Quote:
What is the existing layout on the Frenzy?


wow except for pap our specs are close.

I dont know the exact DA layout, but, I can tell you the drill angle is very low with a pin to pap distance of 2 1/2ish.
the ball also has over 1/2 bottom weight and 3/8 negative statics.

the cg is kicked right and just below the thumb. I tried it on heavy oil with a lot of surface (about 320-500) and it has no hitting power even setup like this. ive only had sporadic success with the ball plaing a hook-set shot with it.

the only way to get any backend on the ball is to really rotate it.

it may be a good ball for over/under conditions. im going to a house to practice next week and see. this place is a solid 15-15 wall I call a UHS or unusual house shot.

hope this is enough info for you.

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Tweenr-RH
300-(13) 290-(36) 280-(30)
Ser-1075-4gm, 867-3gm
THS-233, Sport-210
Tilt: 15-17°, Ax Rot: ~65°, PAP: 4 7/16 over- 3/4up; Speed: 17.5mph Avg
Multi wins/Top 5 Finishes-scr/hdcp tournaments.


Last edited by rrb6699 on Wed Nov 19, 2014 4:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Layout Question
 Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 4:27 am Post Number: #14 Post
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Eric,
I drilled the Strike King at 80x4.25x50 and used it in league last night. Small 3 game sample. If I wanted more length what do you think the best option would be? I have not checked for static weight yet as I was rushed. Once I threw the ball with adequate speed it seemed ok. However, a little more length would be nice. The house really dictates playing out if possible and moving in was not an option with this ball. If options are limited I can drill something else for this top hat condition. I bowled on 1 and 2 which is notorious for being drier than the rest of the center. Also, I was thinking about possible surface adjustments. Would that be a better possible alternative? I know that the final OOB is high polish but not sure of the grit.

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RR 300
PAP 4 7/8 Over 7/8 Up


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 Post subject: Re: Layout Question
 Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 9:22 pm Post Number: #15 Post
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Brunswick's website shows 500 Siaair Micro Pad, Royal Compound, Royal Shine. Pick a grit that will give a less aggressive surface. I'm not sure what the Royal compound takes the surface to, but I'd start with 2000 then add polish if necessary. -- JohnP


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 Post subject: Re: Layout Question
 Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 1:59 am Post Number: #16 Post
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rf67pccb wrote:
Eric,
I drilled the Strike King at 80x4.25x50 and used it in league last night. Small 3 game sample. If I wanted more length what do you think the best option would be? I have not checked for static weight yet as I was rushed. Once I threw the ball with adequate speed it seemed ok. However, a little more length would be nice. The house really dictates playing out if possible and moving in was not an option with this ball. If options are limited I can drill something else for this top hat condition. I bowled on 1 and 2 which is notorious for being drier than the rest of the center. Also, I was thinking about possible surface adjustments. Would that be a better possible alternative? I know that the final OOB is high polish but not sure of the grit.


Surface is a good way to get more length. 500 grit with a little shine on top is still an aggressive surface. 2000 like JohnP suggested is a real good starting point, 4000 grit will definitely give you more length. I don't like polish, its higher maintenance to maintain the reaction.

If lanes 1 and 2 are the worst case being drier than the rest of the center you might want to roll a series or 2 on other pairs before putting to much shine on it.

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Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
65* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: Layout Question
 Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 11:14 pm Post Number: #17 Post
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I surfaced the new Strike King drilled 80x4.25.55 with 1200 wet/dry sandpaper and then 5000 3m pad. Excessive length. I then used a 3000 3m pad and it is very close. I will purchase a 2000 tomorrow and I anticipate it will be right on. Thanks Eric, I believe your recommendation was spot on.

Question: My friend had his delivery spec checked by computer program today with two of his "many" releases. Results as follows:

#1: PAP 4 3/4 1/2 down
16 mph off hand
Tilt 0
Rotation 80
RR 357

#2: PAP 5 1/8 1/8 up
16 mph off hand
Tilt 25
Rotation 60
RR 375

Does any of this make sense to you? It does not to me but I am not the one measuring. If reasonable any layout suggestions for sym/assym?

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Speed 16.6 Off Hand
AT 12
AR 80
RR 300
PAP 4 7/8 Over 7/8 Up


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 Post subject: Re: Layout Question
 Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 1:53 am Post Number: #18 Post
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rf67pccb wrote:
Question: My friend had his delivery spec checked by computer program today with two of his "many" releases. Results as follows:

#1: PAP 4 3/4 1/2 down
16 mph off hand
Tilt 0
Rotation 80
RR 357

#2: PAP 5 1/8 1/8 up
16 mph off hand
Tilt 25
Rotation 60
RR 375

Does any of this make sense to you? It does not to me but I am not the one measuring. If reasonable any layout suggestions for sym/assym?


For your friend with many releases.......I don't think it would really matter which PAP is used to determine the layout , I think he will adjust his delivery to compensate/adjust.

With that said I would recommend a Benchmark 100* total 1:1 Ratio
Asymmetrical......50-4-50
Symmetrical.......55-4-45 BAL hole 2" below midline on the VAL

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Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
65* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: Layout Question
 Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 2:32 am Post Number: #19 Post
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Thanks Eric. I will give him that info and hopefully he will use it. What PAP is used to layout? Something for each? I am confused!

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RR 300
PAP 4 7/8 Over 7/8 Up


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 Post subject: Re: Layout Question
 Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 9:32 pm Post Number: #20 Post
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I would either use his A game release or an average of two or three of his releases. I don't think it's worth drilling balls for separate releases. -- JohnP


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