Layout Question

Which layout is right for me?

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rf67pccb
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Positive Axis Point: 4 7/8 over 7/8 up
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Rev Rate: 300
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 70
Preferred Company: Radical and Roto Grip

Re: Layout Question

Post by rf67pccb »

Eric,

Earlier in this post you had mentioned something different for him for Symmetrical (55x4x45) with balance hole down the VAL. The new layout seems very different. Is the new 90x3x45 because of the weaker ball? Just trying to understand what the thought process is for his ratios and sums. Thanks
Rorey Faiola
--------------
Right Handed
Speed 16.6 Off Hand
AT 12
AR 80
RR 300
PAP 4 7/8 Over 7/8 Up
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EricHartwell
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Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer
Location: Michigan

Re: Layout Question

Post by EricHartwell »

rf67pccb wrote:Eric,

Earlier in this post you had mentioned something different for him for Symmetrical (55x4x45) with balance hole down the VAL. The new layout seems very different. Is the new 90x3x45 because of the weaker ball? Just trying to understand what the thought process is for his ratios and sums. Thanks
Different ball, yes the weaker ball had influence and the previous recommendation was positioning the Cg for balance hole use to lower the drilling angle towards the intended 55*.

The 90-3-45 is intended to be a long and strong compliment to the 50-4-45 w/ balance hole.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
rf67pccb
Member
Member
Posts: 200
Joined: October 20th, 2014, 12:13 am
Positive Axis Point: 4 7/8 over 7/8 up
Speed: 16.6 Camera
Rev Rate: 300
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 70
Preferred Company: Radical and Roto Grip

Re: Layout Question

Post by rf67pccb »

Thanks Eric,

I think he is going to drill the Arson tomorrow. I will have him use 90x3x45 as the other house he bowls tend to hook a tad more and he will have something to ball down to from the Mastermind. Your expertise is extremely valuable. All of the info from guys on this site has been great. I pass data on to guys in my area whenever I can. Thanks again!
Rorey Faiola
--------------
Right Handed
Speed 16.6 Off Hand
AT 12
AR 80
RR 300
PAP 4 7/8 Over 7/8 Up
rf67pccb
Member
Member
Posts: 200
Joined: October 20th, 2014, 12:13 am
Positive Axis Point: 4 7/8 over 7/8 up
Speed: 16.6 Camera
Rev Rate: 300
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 70
Preferred Company: Radical and Roto Grip

Re: Layout Question

Post by rf67pccb »

Here is the latest on my friend new stats:

He says this is the release he wants to depend on!

Speed 18.4
AR 50
AT 5
RR 370
PAP 5 and 0

Can he still use 90x3x45? as the long and strong on the Arson Solid Low Flare?
He bowls his other league on fairly worn out wood lanes and wants to use this ball there.
Rorey Faiola
--------------
Right Handed
Speed 16.6 Off Hand
AT 12
AR 80
RR 300
PAP 4 7/8 Over 7/8 Up
User avatar
EricHartwell
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Posts: 4080
Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer
Location: Michigan

Re: Layout Question

Post by EricHartwell »

rf67pccb wrote:Here is the latest on my friend new stats:

He says this is the release he wants to depend on!

Speed 18.4
AR 50
AT 5
RR 370
PAP 5 and 0

Can he still use 90x3x45? as the long and strong on the Arson Solid Low Flare?
He bowls his other league on fairly worn out wood lanes and wants to use this ball there.
With this type of release....
Pin in the ring finger Cg on grip centerline will give him a really good control look on the high friction wood condition.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
rf67pccb
Member
Member
Posts: 200
Joined: October 20th, 2014, 12:13 am
Positive Axis Point: 4 7/8 over 7/8 up
Speed: 16.6 Camera
Rev Rate: 300
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 70
Preferred Company: Radical and Roto Grip

Re: Layout Question

Post by rf67pccb »

Eric, What angles and pin distance would that likely end up being? We plan on drilling tomorrow for his wood lane league night....thanks
Rorey Faiola
--------------
Right Handed
Speed 16.6 Off Hand
AT 12
AR 80
RR 300
PAP 4 7/8 Over 7/8 Up
rf67pccb
Member
Member
Posts: 200
Joined: October 20th, 2014, 12:13 am
Positive Axis Point: 4 7/8 over 7/8 up
Speed: 16.6 Camera
Rev Rate: 300
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 70
Preferred Company: Radical and Roto Grip

Re: Layout Question

Post by rf67pccb »

Eric, He used the Mastermind tonight on synthetics and it looked pretty good. He threw some shots wide (dry) and paid for them. I told him to not be afraid to play tight and not bounce of the really dry right. When he does this the ball is a monster. Thanks again!
Last edited by rf67pccb on January 27th, 2015, 3:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
Rorey Faiola
--------------
Right Handed
Speed 16.6 Off Hand
AT 12
AR 80
RR 300
PAP 4 7/8 Over 7/8 Up
User avatar
EricHartwell
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Posts: 4080
Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer
Location: Michigan

Re: Layout Question

Post by EricHartwell »

~80-4.75-50
It depends on his span
With the Cg on the centerline it sets it up for a MOtion hole if the friction is too much. But with his ability to adjust his release no balance hole should be needed.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
rf67pccb
Member
Member
Posts: 200
Joined: October 20th, 2014, 12:13 am
Positive Axis Point: 4 7/8 over 7/8 up
Speed: 16.6 Camera
Rev Rate: 300
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 70
Preferred Company: Radical and Roto Grip

Re: Layout Question

Post by rf67pccb »

Thanks Eric...we will drill up tomorrow. He has had major problems on those worn out wood lanes and is looking forward to trying the right control drill for him.
Rorey Faiola
--------------
Right Handed
Speed 16.6 Off Hand
AT 12
AR 80
RR 300
PAP 4 7/8 Over 7/8 Up
rf67pccb
Member
Member
Posts: 200
Joined: October 20th, 2014, 12:13 am
Positive Axis Point: 4 7/8 over 7/8 up
Speed: 16.6 Camera
Rev Rate: 300
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 70
Preferred Company: Radical and Roto Grip

Re: Layout Question

Post by rf67pccb »

Pin in ring finger and CG on mid grip line. If one wanted more length on the Arson with very low diff would the Motion hole be the likely direction to go. Seems like P1 would only do the minimum on that weak ball with small flare potential. When the PAP is exactly 5" what measurement would be used?
Rorey Faiola
--------------
Right Handed
Speed 16.6 Off Hand
AT 12
AR 80
RR 300
PAP 4 7/8 Over 7/8 Up
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river800
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Re: Layout Question

Post by river800 »

rf67pccb wrote:Pin in ring finger and CG on mid grip line. If one wanted more length on the Arson with very low diff would the Motion hole be the likely direction to go. Seems like P1 would only do the minimum on that weak ball with small flare potential. When the PAP is exactly 5" what measurement would be used?
What is the current surface of the arson low flare at?
Stats:
Right handed
Pap is 4 3/4 x 3/8 up currently
Speed around 16.5 off hand
Tilt in the 14-16* range
Rev rate: around 325 - 350 or so
Axis rotation in the 25-70* range
I bowl on Brunswick synthetics. Ths...
rf67pccb
Member
Member
Posts: 200
Joined: October 20th, 2014, 12:13 am
Positive Axis Point: 4 7/8 over 7/8 up
Speed: 16.6 Camera
Rev Rate: 300
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 70
Preferred Company: Radical and Roto Grip

Re: Layout Question

Post by rf67pccb »

OOB and has not been used on fresh THS yet. Being trialed tonight in league.
Rorey Faiola
--------------
Right Handed
Speed 16.6 Off Hand
AT 12
AR 80
RR 300
PAP 4 7/8 Over 7/8 Up
rf67pccb
Member
Member
Posts: 200
Joined: October 20th, 2014, 12:13 am
Positive Axis Point: 4 7/8 over 7/8 up
Speed: 16.6 Camera
Rev Rate: 300
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 70
Preferred Company: Radical and Roto Grip

Re: Layout Question

Post by rf67pccb »

Eric,

I have a lefty friend that wants to build his arsenal using dual angle technology:
Averages 220
Speed 18
AR 65
AT 13
RR 365
PAP 5 over 1/2 up

He is open to Assym or Symm.....Any suggestions would be appreciated...Thanks
Rorey Faiola
--------------
Right Handed
Speed 16.6 Off Hand
AT 12
AR 80
RR 300
PAP 4 7/8 Over 7/8 Up
User avatar
river800
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Posts: 1056
Joined: November 19th, 2010, 12:11 am
THS Average: 202
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Location: Coeur D A'lene, ID

Re: Layout Question

Post by river800 »

rf67pccb wrote:Eric,

I have a lefty friend that wants to build his arsenal using dual angle technology:
Averages 220
Speed 18
AR 65
AT 13
RR 365
PAP 5 over 1/2 up

He is open to Assym or Symm.....Any suggestions would be appreciated...Thanks
Lets see here, I have this person with matched speed and revs, with the high end of medium rotation and the low end of medium tilt. This brings us to 95 + - 20 total sum with a 1.75:1 + - 0.5 for the ratio. Normally we would adjust the total sum down a bit due to this person being a lefty, but with his ability from his specs and average, we can adjust with a hole, and then surface on this one to dial it in.

----------------Asymm:----------Symm:
Benchmark------60 x 4 x 35-------65 x 4 x 30
Control--------- 60 x 2 1/4 x 55---65 x 4.5 x 50
Midlane---------40 x 4.5 x 35------45 x 3.5 x 30 Hole 1.5" down val from midline
Long n strong---80 x 3 1/4 x 35----xx x 4.5 x 30 Cg on center line close to midline, throw ball
before adding Mo hole if need a bit stronger role.

Normally, the benchmark, control and long n strong are the ones used, but I added the midlane depending on if the house shot has heavier oil in the midlane or is just heavier in nature and what lane surface that he is bowling on.

Is he wanting to get all new stuff, or get a few new balls then maybe plug and redrill a few used ones? What brand or brands is he open to?
Stats:
Right handed
Pap is 4 3/4 x 3/8 up currently
Speed around 16.5 off hand
Tilt in the 14-16* range
Rev rate: around 325 - 350 or so
Axis rotation in the 25-70* range
I bowl on Brunswick synthetics. Ths...
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EricHartwell
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Posts: 4080
Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer
Location: Michigan

Re: Layout Question

Post by EricHartwell »

river has basic set covered covered on this one.
I am glad he included the Midlane layout, It is one of my favorite layouts
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
User avatar
river800
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Re: Layout Question

Post by river800 »

EricHartwell wrote:river has basic set covered covered on this one.
I am glad he included the Midlane layout, It is one of my favorite layouts
Thanks for the confirmation on what I tried to come up with. I made a few tweaks with the symm control layout and then the asymm long n strong layout due to rotation, but other than that, that was it.

I agree about the midlane layout, I am actually going to be drilling that storm vertigo with a midlane layout soon and can't wait to try it on a heavier house shot.
Stats:
Right handed
Pap is 4 3/4 x 3/8 up currently
Speed around 16.5 off hand
Tilt in the 14-16* range
Rev rate: around 325 - 350 or so
Axis rotation in the 25-70* range
I bowl on Brunswick synthetics. Ths...
ads
Member
Member
Posts: 657
Joined: November 22nd, 2014, 6:07 am
THS Average: 205
Positive Axis Point: 5 5/8 up 3/4
Speed: 14 mph off hand
Rev Rate: 300
Axis Tilt: 15
Axis Rotation: 60
Location: Hong Kong

Re: Layout Question

Post by ads »

River and Eric,

The benchmark starts with 4" PAP-PIN for both asym and sym.

http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... echart.JPG" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

2"-3" and 4"-5" both give medium flare but seldom see sym PAP-PIN between 2" - 3". Why?


For asym, compared with benchmark

1. Control layout - PAP-PIN will be shorter because of larger sum which requires more time to burn tilt

2. Long n strong - PAP-PIN will be shorter (or the same) because of larger drill angle to prolong skid

3. Midlane - PAP-PIN will be longer to read lane sooner.

Is it a correct observation?
Adrian
Right handed
PAP: 5 1/8 up 3/4
Speed: 15.5 mph (Kegel Specto)
Rev: 350 RPM
Axis tilt: 18-20*
Axis rotation: 60*
User avatar
EricHartwell
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 4080
Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer
Location: Michigan

Re: Layout Question

Post by EricHartwell »

ads wrote:River and Eric,

The benchmark starts with 4" PAP-PIN for both asym and sym.

http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... echart.JPG" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

2"-3" and 4"-5" both give medium flare but seldom see sym PAP-PIN between 2" - 3". Why?

The shorter Pin to PAP on Sym burn tilt and rotation faster creating forward roll.
The 2" to 3" would be used for high tilt/rotation but it is a trade off having less flare.


For asym, compared with benchmark

1. Control layout - PAP-PIN will be shorter because of larger sum which requires more time to burn tilt Also to make the ball transition slower, less flare

2. Long n strong - PAP-PIN will be shorter (or the same) because of larger drill angle to prolong skid

3. Midlane - PAP-PIN will be longer to read lane sooner. You want a strong pin position. Longer would be to create more forward roll to play the lane straighter on longer patterns.

Is it a correct observation?
comments in color
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
rf67pccb
Member
Member
Posts: 200
Joined: October 20th, 2014, 12:13 am
Positive Axis Point: 4 7/8 over 7/8 up
Speed: 16.6 Camera
Rev Rate: 300
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 70
Preferred Company: Radical and Roto Grip

Re: Layout Question

Post by rf67pccb »

I do not think he is locked in to one brand or against plugging. I will provide him with the recommendations and go from there and provide feedback....thanks again to all
Rorey Faiola
--------------
Right Handed
Speed 16.6 Off Hand
AT 12
AR 80
RR 300
PAP 4 7/8 Over 7/8 Up
User avatar
river800
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 1056
Joined: November 19th, 2010, 12:11 am
THS Average: 202
Preferred Company: Storm/radical
Location: Coeur D A'lene, ID

Re: Layout Question

Post by river800 »

rf67pccb wrote:I do not think he is locked in to one brand or against plugging. I will provide him with the recommendations and go from there and provide feedback....thanks again to all
Ok, let us know what brands he is open to and we can put something together :) Does he bowl only on a house shot?
Stats:
Right handed
Pap is 4 3/4 x 3/8 up currently
Speed around 16.5 off hand
Tilt in the 14-16* range
Rev rate: around 325 - 350 or so
Axis rotation in the 25-70* range
I bowl on Brunswick synthetics. Ths...
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