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 Post subject: Re: Radical Torrid Affair Layout
 Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 11:30 pm Post Number: #21 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:
bowlingforsoup wrote:
I finally got around to drilling the the torrid affair per Eric's advice.I have a question before I put the p1 hole in it.I have two different sheets on the gradient holes.One is showing the p holes are from mass bias looks like on asymmetrical balls.The other sheet does not really say ,It just shows it to be 6 3/4 up the val.My question is this do I measure from the thumb hole which should be psa on a symmetrical.I have rolled the ball without the hole rolls ok.But I believe the p1 hole may be the ticket.Just want to be sure about the hole placement.Thanks guys.


Roll the ball and find your actual PAP on the Torrid to properly locate the P1.

Measure 6-3/4" from the pin to a point 1/2" left of the grip centerline. This location should be just below your thumb. Then measure 6-3/4" to the VAL this will be P1 and will be approximately 3/4" above your PAP. It will be slightly different if your PAP is found to be different from what you had posted earlier.

The PSA being below the thumb-hole and 1/2" left was determined from a USBC study where all the balls were drilled about the same.
Steve has since done a lot of work to show the shifts and they show where you almost need a DeTerminator (he is still studying this) .
He found that the shape of the core had very much to do with the shifts. For example:
a CAD layout of 70* 3 3 /8" 30* & found the PSA shifted to above the thumb-hole.
A 90* 3 3/8" 75* hole did not shift the PSA.

Here is where to read about this: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=9405 (see #8)

If you do not have access to a DeTerminator, Eric's advice is as good as I could find.


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 Post subject: Re: Radical Torrid Affair Layout
 Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 7:46 am Post Number: #22 Post
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elgavachon wrote:
EricHartwell wrote:
bowlingforsoup wrote:
I finally got around to drilling the the torrid affair per Eric's advice.I have a question before I put the p1 hole in it.I have two different sheets on the gradient holes.One is showing the p holes are from mass bias looks like on asymmetrical balls.The other sheet does not really say ,It just shows it to be 6 3/4 up the val.My question is this do I measure from the thumb hole which should be psa on a symmetrical.I have rolled the ball without the hole rolls ok.But I believe the p1 hole may be the ticket.Just want to be sure about the hole placement.Thanks guys.


Roll the ball and find your actual PAP on the Torrid to properly locate the P1.

Measure 6-3/4" from the pin to a point 1/2" left of the grip centerline. This location should be just below your thumb. Then measure 6-3/4" to the VAL this will be P1 and will be approximately 3/4" above your PAP. It will be slightly different if your PAP is found to be different from what you had posted earlier.

The PSA being below the thumb-hole and 1/2" left was determined from a USBC study where all the balls were drilled about the same.
Steve has since done a lot of work to show the shifts and they show where you almost need a DeTerminator (he is still studying this) .
He found that the shape of the core had very much to do with the shifts. For example:
a CAD layout of 70* 3 3 /8" 30* & found the PSA shifted to above the thumb-hole.
A 90* 3 3/8" 75* hole did not shift the PSA.

Here is where to read about this: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=9405 (see #8)

If you do not have access to a DeTerminator, Eric's advice is as good as I could find.


On symmetrical balls without a balance hole, use the PAP as P1.


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 Post subject: Re: Radical Torrid Affair Layout
 Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 8:30 pm Post Number: #23 Post
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Here I am again, needing to know Why?

Also is this in all cases with symmetrical balls?

I ask for the hypothetical situation, bowler has 0" vertical component of the PAP measurement, fingers are drilled deep and the static finger weight is still over the limit.
Is it OK to go Up the VAL and will it still reduce the flare?

Do the Final Gradient Line Guidelines need to be updated?

http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/images ... nd_Out.pdf

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 Post subject: Re: Radical Torrid Affair Layout
 Posted: Mon May 05, 2014 10:45 pm Post Number: #24 Post
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Hi Eric ,finally got to try the hole.Glad I had not already put the p1 in it before I checked back here.I am really confused .I have read 2 different things about where p1 is.But I did as Mo said on pap.Ball is ok ,But not really anything special.So I have went back to square one thinking about my stats.I have been working on my release and rechecked a few things.Now I measured my track diameter its at 12 inches.By the chart says that is 10 degrees also my axis rotation is more around 50 to 60 .It was 17 tilt and 75 rotation.My question now is am I going in the right direction on tilt and rotation.I have noticed my ball not going sideways as bad.Now it seems like I could throw more aggressive drillings as layouts I have now are rolling a little different.I have a Brunswick Melee I havent drilled yet throw something at me to try with these new stats.My thinking is something around 4 inch to pap.Also thanks for all the help you gave have gave me.


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 Post subject: Re: Radical Torrid Affair Layout
 Posted: Tue May 06, 2014 1:06 am Post Number: #25 Post
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bowlingforsoup wrote:
Hi Eric ,finally got to try the hole.Glad I had not already put the p1 in it before I checked back here.I am really confused .I have read 2 different things about where p1 is.But I did as Mo said on pap.Ball is ok ,But not really anything special.So I have went back to square one thinking about my stats.I have been working on my release and rechecked a few things.Now I measured my track diameter its at 12 inches.By the chart says that is 10 degrees also my axis rotation is more around 50 to 60 .It was 17 tilt and 75 rotation.My question now is am I going in the right direction on tilt and rotation.I have noticed my ball not going sideways as bad.Now it seems like I could throw more aggressive drillings as layouts I have now are rolling a little different.I have a Brunswick Melee I havent drilled yet throw something at me to try with these new stats.My thinking is something around 4 inch to pap.Also thanks for all the help you gave have gave me.


I am wondering if your speed and revolutions have changed as well.

What ball motion would constitute something special?

How do you want the Melee to roll as compared to the Torrid?

Melee at 80-4-40 will flare more, rev up sooner and hook more than the Torrid Affair at 85-3-40 P1

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12* tilt
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 Post subject: Re: Radical Torrid Affair Layout
 Posted: Tue May 06, 2014 2:16 am Post Number: #26 Post
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Eric speed seems to be the same.As far as revs not sure but think it may be a little less.Seems to be a little more forward roll to my eyes.My pap also changed a little doubt it matters much.It went from 5 1/4 over 0 up or down to 5 over and 1/4 up.As far as something special I notice my balls never really have what I call continuation.Lots of time its like energy is lost about the time it enters the pocket.I never leave 8 or 9 pins.Its rare when I do.I have been rolling the ball with this new release a couple of weeks now.Three sets i bowled have been around 650.Really nothing great but I am not seeing the ball go sideways when it hits friction like it was.I know the melee is kinda of a weaker ball.Thats why I am thinking stronger layout.Thanks for the help


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 Post subject: Re: Radical Torrid Affair Layout
 Posted: Tue May 06, 2014 2:50 am Post Number: #27 Post
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Remember to consider surface preps to get the Melee to compliment the Torrid. Don't expect the factory surfaces to be adequate.

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45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: Radical Torrid Affair Layout
 Posted: Sat May 10, 2014 5:52 pm Post Number: #28 Post
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Hi Eric,Just letting you know melee at 80 x 4 x 40 rolls great.I think this is closest to what I am looking for.I think now with less tilt and axis rotation the bigger angles being 120 are helping ball retain axis and tilt.Also I can stay right on top of the oil line .If I leak it a little right it don't jump at my feet,And if I tug it I have hold.Have not had that in years.I rechecked my pap on melee and its 5 1/2 over 1/8 up.So adding less tilt I have increased my track a little higher.Also axis rotation is between 45 to 50 now by my eyes it points almost at 45 maybe just a little toward foul line.I think I have lost a few revs ,But the outcome is much better .I can deal with a few less.Thanks for all your help.Just let me know if my thinking about all this change is correct.Hope I'm going in the right direction.


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 Post subject: Re: Radical Torrid Affair Layout
 Posted: Sat May 10, 2014 10:01 pm Post Number: #29 Post
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Looks like your thinking is correct and you are on the right track. Definitely a step in the right direction

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PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: Radical Torrid Affair Layout
 Posted: Sat May 17, 2014 10:30 pm Post Number: #30 Post
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Hi Guys just a little update from my change in tilt and axis rotation.And new ball layout to retain tilt and axis.After 2 weeks of the change had best series all year.290-259-218-766.What a difference it has made.Thanks again guys for all your help.


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 Post subject: Re: Radical Torrid Affair Layout
 Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 7:52 pm Post Number: #31 Post
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Hi Eric,would like to give an update.Have been bowling much better since the change.I have had all my specs rechecked.And things have changed I would like some layouts for new specs.New stats are Speed is 16mph off my hand.Tilt is 13 axis rotation is 45 to 60 depends on release ,checked with both releases.RR is 370.Also my pap has changed alot .Was 5 over 1/8 up now is 4 1/4 over 0 up or down.Would like some layouts for asymmetrical and symmetrical for THS and sport shots.


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 Post subject: Re: Radical Torrid Affair Layout
 Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 12:33 am Post Number: #32 Post
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You are still rev dominant but now working the lower side of Med tilt and rotation
1.75:1 Ratio
110* total
Asym Benchmark.... 70-3.5-40
Sym Benchmark.......75-4-35

THS Asym......75-2.5-55
THS Sym.......~60-5-50..... Pin in the Middle finger
60* drilling angle to set Cg on Positive side of grip to give balance hole options

As for the sport layouts, use lower ratios on stronger equip. Asymmetrical balls are recommended to Control the drilling angle better.

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 Post subject: Re: Radical Torrid Affair Layout
 Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 3:38 am Post Number: #33 Post
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Hi Eric,Took your advice and drilled a Brunswick ringer solid for THS ~60-5-50 pin in middle finger.Ball rolls fantastic.I ordered 2 asymmetric balls that were on sale cyber monday sale.It was a combo deal 199.Brunswick Fortera Exile and the new Fortera Intrigue.I am going to layout the intrigue with your benchmark suggestion of 70-3.5-40.I was thinking maybe a control layout on the exile.I was looking at the latest radicals suggested layouts for asymmetrics.It has a control layout for med tilt an rotation of 85-4 3/4-70.Curious what you think of this layout.Another thing I want to ask about is my pap.4 1/4 over 0 up or down.When I layout this 85-4/3/4-70 ball with this new pap it puts cg a little on the negative side does this matter any.Since the pap change you would think 4 1/4 would be like a spinner release.It really is not it tracks all the way back on the other side of the ball.I have to be carefull when using hole on val.I have a prosect since pap change was just messing around laying out different layouts an alot will be kinda with cg on negative side.Just wanting to make sure its not something I am doing wrong.My span is real short .3 7/8 mf 3 6/8 rf.Thanks for your help


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 Post subject: Re: Radical Torrid Affair Layout
 Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 1:29 am Post Number: #34 Post
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You can adjust that negative side weight by drilling the middle finger deeper.
Long pin to PAP layouts with a shorter PAP measurements do look different at times. It is a prime example of why you utilize your own unique PAP measurement to base the layout.

Skid flippy balls
Benchmark layout on the Fortera Intrigue, I would not call it a a true benchmark reaction. I like the idea of a benchmark drilling rather than to take it to an extreme and put a skid snap layout on a skid Snap ball.

I don't like the idea of an extreme control layout on the Fortera Exile. I would be worried about it going too long.
I would go with a little lower ratio and less total 60-5-70
Giving room with the cg on the positive side for a strong balance hole if needed.

Your thinking is good as far as how you are filling in your arsenal.

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 Post subject: Re: Radical Torrid Affair Layout
 Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 9:25 pm Post Number: #35 Post
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Hi Eric,Would like to ask question about a layout you recommended for THS asymmetric 75-2.5-55.I got a radical reax v2 pearl.My question is when you look at the track flare chart for asymmetric it says pins closer to 2 3/4 produce more side roll.And for symmetric pins at 2 to 3 inch produce earlier hook.I had a symmetric drilled with a 2 inch pin before and it rolled early an puked at the backend.Before I drill the reax I just want to make sure I will not get early hook out of that layout.Lanes we bowl on here are always wet/dry.Sometimes extreme wet/dry.With this 75-2.5-55 will I be able to play closer to the dry.Just trying to understand what this layout should do.Also the other 2 asymmetrical layouts you gave me work great.


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 Post subject: Re: Radical Torrid Affair Layout
 Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 3:04 am Post Number: #36 Post
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The low flare Asym layout will retain tilt and rotation, it doesn't produce side roll. It wont overreact to friction. I will help smooth out jumpy reactions that stronger layouts produce.
It is a layout that needs friction to get rolling.

What asymmetrical ball are you thinking about putting the low flare layout on?

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 Post subject: Re: Radical Torrid Affair Layout
 Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 3:22 am Post Number: #37 Post
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My stats are a bit different, but I do have to say this.

I had a older storm ball the x-factor vertigo which is a decently strong ball (I have 4 of these right now because I like the cover and core) plugged then redrilled to an asymm control drill of 70 x 2 1/4 x 50 and it does exactly as the layout suggests. It does need some friction to start the hook and role phase, but is not jumpy at all. Not really suitable for playing deep inside more of the outside to the middle part of the lane less angle through the front part of the lane so to speak. My ball has right at 1 oz of side weight, but no weight hole at the moment. I am going to throw it more before deciding.

The Reax V 2 pearl would work great with the control drill. Pin to pap on a asymm ball starting at 2 3/4 and going to 1 1/2 produce less flare while revving up later on the lane, couple that with a lower ratio and you have a ball that is not going to be jumpy as Eric stated.

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Pap is 4 3/4 x 3/8 up currently
Speed around 16.5 off hand
Tilt in the 14-16* range
Rev rate: around 325 - 350 or so
Axis rotation in the 25-70* range
I bowl on Brunswick synthetics. Ths...


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 Post subject: Re: Radical Torrid Affair Layout
 Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 5:03 am Post Number: #38 Post
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Eric, The ball I have I am wanting to try this layout on 75-2.5-55 is Reax v2 pearl.I was just wanting to make sure I wasn't going to get a early rolling ball with nothing for the backends.Thanks for help .I am really liking all the layouts you have recommended


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 Post subject: Re: Radical Torrid Affair Layout
 Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 1:34 am Post Number: #39 Post
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75-2.5-55 is going to need a balance hole. Roll the ball first before deciding. P2 to maintain the reaction if you like it as is.

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PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
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12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: Radical Torrid Affair Layout
 Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 3:55 am Post Number: #40 Post
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Will do Thanks Eric.


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