Dual Angle resulting in pin down layout

Which layout is right for me?

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2ate10
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Dual Angle resulting in pin down layout

Post by 2ate10 »

Is it just me, or is it darn near impossible, using the dual angle method, to stay within the guidelines (90/10, 70/20) and end up with the pin below the fingers? Have tired every configuration I can think of, and sums exceed 160. What am I missing? It's not so much that I'm enamoured w/pin down layouts, but you see the big boys throwing such on TV a lot. Makes me curious.
Thanks...

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Re: Dual Angle resulting in pin down layout

Post by MegaMav »

This difference between you and the "big boys" can be around 200RPM.
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Re: Dual Angle resulting in pin down layout

Post by kellytehuna »

Also, you have a reasonable UP component to your PAP. My PAP is close to yours (or was a year ago) at 4-1/2 over, 1-1/4 up. For me to get a pin down layout, I have to use a shorter pin to PAP (like under 3") and a VAL angle over 60, assuming I want to stay with in the bounds of the DA system. VAL angles of 40-55 tend and pins between 3" and 5" tends to pin the put in the finger area. If I had a lower up component to my PAP, I suspect the pin down layouts would be much easier to get for me.
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Re: Dual Angle resulting in pin down layout

Post by Triplicate »

2ate10 wrote:Is it just me, or is it darn near impossible, using the dual angle method, to stay within the guidelines (90/10, 70/20) and end up with the pin below the fingers? Have tired every configuration I can think of, and sums exceed 160. What am I missing? It's not so much that I'm enamoured w/pin down layouts, but you see the big boys throwing such on TV a lot. Makes me curious.
Thanks...

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Not a problem for you. You appear to be somewhat of a spinner with this PAP. The guys on TV will usually have much higher tracks so a Pin Down layout will react much different for them because of this. You should still be able to get lined up with this ball and it should read the mid lane a little earlier than your higher pin positions.

I don't know your cut to cut span but if your over 4.25 you could use a 70 deg VAL.

A pin down layout for you would be in the area of 65*4*75. This will give you close to 1 oz side weight using a 2" pin out ball with 3 oz of top weight. The 65*4*75 is the one shown below. You can lengthen or shorten the pin distance from 4 to give you more or less flare.

I hope this helps.

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Re: Dual Angle resulting in pin down layout

Post by The Kid »

2ate10 wrote:Is it just me, or is it darn near impossible, using the dual angle method, to stay within the guidelines (90/10, 70/20) and end up with the pin below the fingers? Have tired every configuration I can think of, and sums exceed 160. What am I missing? It's not so much that I'm enamoured w/pin down layouts, but you see the big boys throwing such on TV a lot. Makes me curious.
Thanks...

PAP 4 7/8 ^1
A couple of things worth noting:

1) A layout ending up pin-down is easier for smaller vertical PAP components (<1/2") and shorter pin-to-PAP distances. Horizontal PAP components also affect whether or not pin-down layouts will happen within the Dual Angle guidelines.

2) The VAL angle guidelines are for predictive power and flare/bowtie safety. Below 20 degrees and above 70 degrees often don't have consistent/significant effects on the ball dynamics (Total Diff., Diff. Ratio). For many, even VAL angles in the 50-70 degree range don't generate significantly different dynamics (see Blueprint study). But, I would say the most important thing is the flare/bowtie safety issue. For certain bowlers, using a larger or smaller VAL angle will still be flare safe, and thus will not cause a problem. I know Joey Cerar has used VAL angles less than 20 degrees and I have drilled a couple of balls with VAL angles in the 70-90 degree range with no problems. So, sometimes pin-down layouts are difficult within the Dual Angle guidelines, but still possible and not harmful.

It's just safer to stick to the guidelines unless you know enough to safely predict whether it will be a problem (or beneficial), or have some money to throw at a ball to test it, or have Blueprint.
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Re: Dual Angle resulting in pin down layout

Post by 2ate10 »

Kelly, Trip, and the Kid... thank you. insightful and helpful.
Much appreciated.
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Re: Dual Angle resulting in pin down layout

Post by distjamb »

Dont be concerned with where the pin is at in relation to your fingers. Its about the angles. My 60* val angle is the same as yours, even if my pin is below fingers and yours isnt. Just sayin...
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Re: Dual Angle resulting in pin down layout

Post by 2ate10 »

distjamb wrote:Dont be concerned with where the pin is at in relation to your fingers. Its about the angles. My 60* val angle is the same as yours, even if my pin is below fingers and yours isnt. Just sayin...
Thanks. That makes sense. Would it be fair to say Pin to Pap distance and VAL are the dominant determinations on the symmetrical equipment?
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Re: Dual Angle resulting in pin down layout

Post by J_w73 »

distjamb wrote:Dont be concerned with where the pin is at in relation to your fingers. Its about the angles. My 60* val angle is the same as yours, even if my pin is below fingers and yours isnt. Just sayin...
The difference in reaction is completely caused by where the holes are in relation to the pin / core. The angles are just a way to explain the layout. Although I think the dual angle system is the best there is as far as describing a layout, it isn't perfect. Given the same pin to PAP and drill angle, your 60 Deg Val may not produce the same reaction as his 60 deg VAL if you have different Pap coordinates . For the majority of bowlers the difference will be negligible because most peoples PAPs are close to each other. But his ball with the pin below the fingers will have a different reaction than your ball with the pin above the fingers. The reaction for dual angle layouts is not entirely comparable between bowlers.. Where it does a great job is explaining the difference in reaction when comparing different layouts for a singular bowler.
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Re: Dual Angle resulting in pin down layout

Post by kellytehuna »

If only it were that simple. You seem to be neglecting differing rev rates and ball speeds. Differing amounts of tilt and rotation. Not to mention different start RG planes, ball surfaces, angles of play. That's just 7 different variables that come in to play, with many more unaccounted for. Where and how the holes intersect the core matter, but they don't explain the differences in reaction as readily as you seem to think. There's so much more to it than that.
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Re: Dual Angle resulting in pin down layout

Post by MegaMav »

J_w73 wrote: The difference in reaction is completely caused by where the holes are in relation to the pin / core.
I'd say this is incorrect.
Its where the Pins are in relation to your PAP.
If your statement were true, your ball reaction would be based on your grip rather than release.
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Re: Dual Angle resulting in pin down layout

Post by J_w73 »

kellytehuna wrote:If only it were that simple. You seem to be neglecting differing rev rates and ball speeds. Differing amounts of tilt and rotation. Not to mention different start RG planes, ball surfaces, angles of play. That's just 7 different variables that come in to play, with many more unaccounted for. Where and how the holes intersect the core matter, but they don't explain the differences in reaction as readily as you seem to think. There's so much more to it than that.

Well of course.. I should have said, "everything else being equal"
I didn't want to write a book and explain every little detail.
My point is that people need to realize that the VAL component determines where the holes are taking weight out of the core or creating asymetry. That is what determines how the ball is going to react. The reason for the change in reaction isn't because the pin is 10 deg or 70 deg from a line called the VAL line. It is because those angles put the core in a position where you take weight from different parts of the core, creating the different reactions.
Last edited by J_w73 on January 31st, 2013, 7:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dual Angle resulting in pin down layout

Post by J_w73 »

MegaMav wrote: I'd say this is incorrect.
Its where the Pins are in relation to your PAP.
If your statement were true, your ball reaction would be based on your grip rather than release.
Agreed, pin to pap has a lot to do with reaction.. I was only referring to his comment that there wasn't a difference because "...60 deg is 60 deg...". If the balls have the same pin to pap and his 60 deg puts the pin above the fingers and the other guys 60 deg puts the pin in a different position then the balls will have a different reaction. And the reaction does have a lot to do with where the pin/core is in relation to the grip. That is what we are doing with the different VAL degrees in the dual angle. shifting the core around so the holes take weight out different locations, and changing the RG values, thus giving us the reacting we desire.

The old school method of saying, "put the pin at 1 o'clock or above the ring" isn't good because this could be 5" pin to pap for one person and 3" pin to pap for another person. Thus giving the two people a very different reaction. The dual angle solves this by doing a better job of explaining the layout as it pertains to a bowler because it does take pin to PAP into account.

Not harping on the dual angle system.. like I said , it is the best there is right now for describing a layout and giving you a good idea of how a ball will react..
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Re: Dual Angle resulting in pin down layout

Post by The Kid »

I agree with what you're saying entirely. Here's what I'd like to do (but would take quite a bit of work):

Using Blueprint:

1) "Drill" a symmetrical, weak asymmetrical, and strong asymmetrical using average spans, hole sizes, and a "normal" PAP. Record the RG of the PAP, the real pin-to-PAP distance, the Total Diff, and the Intermediate Diff.
2) Adjust the layouts in 5* increments and pin-to-PAPs in 1/4" or 1/8" increments. Record the same things as above for comparison.
3) Alter the PAP by 1/4" left/right as well as up/down. Record the same things as above.

What I would eventually like to come upon is another variable to improve the predictability of the Dual Angle system. I want to find a statement such as: "For each 3/4" of the vertical component of the PAP, increase all VAL angles by 5*."

Assuming something like that would improve the precision and accuracy of the system, then someone with a strange PAP of say 5" over by 2.5" up can adjust layouts to deal with the fact that the pin will be much further above the holes for all VAL angles than someone with 5" over by .5" up.


But that's a looooooot of work.
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Re: Dual Angle resulting in pin down layout

Post by Blueprint »

The Kid wrote:I agree with what you're saying entirely. Here's what I'd like to do (but would take quite a bit of work):

Using Blueprint:

1) "Drill" a symmetrical, weak asymmetrical, and strong asymmetrical using average spans, hole sizes, and a "normal" PAP. Record the RG of the PAP, the real pin-to-PAP distance, the Total Diff, and the Intermediate Diff.
2) Adjust the layouts in 5* increments and pin-to-PAPs in 1/4" or 1/8" increments. Record the same things as above for comparison.
3) Alter the PAP by 1/4" left/right as well as up/down. Record the same things as above.

What I would eventually like to come upon is another variable to improve the predictability of the Dual Angle system. I want to find a statement such as: "For each 3/4" of the vertical component of the PAP, increase all VAL angles by 5*."

Assuming something like that would improve the precision and accuracy of the system, then someone with a strange PAP of say 5" over by 2.5" up can adjust layouts to deal with the fact that the pin will be much further above the holes for all VAL angles than someone with 5" over by .5" up.


But that's a looooooot of work.
The weakness with all of the existing layout systems is that none of them are exactly perfect all of the time:

- The weakness of the older layout systems is that they only concerned themselves with where the core was relative to the gripping holes.
- The weakness of the newer layout systems is that they only concern themselves with where the core is relative to the PAP.

In reality, both the position of the gripping holes relative to the core AND the position of the PAP relative to the core can be important. This can be especially noticeable for situations where you are comparing the same layout for two bowlers with drastically different PAPs. For example, the below images show the same layout (80 x 5.5 x 50) for two bowlers with different vertical PAP coordinates:
Same_Layout_Different_PAPs.jpg
Both balls have the same layout, but one ends up significantly weaker than the other and the reason is completely due to the fact that the gripping holes in each ball are in different positions relative to the core.
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Re: Dual Angle resulting in pin down layout

Post by J_w73 »

Blueprint wrote: The weakness with all of the existing layout systems is that none of them are exactly perfect all of the time:

- The weakness of the older layout systems is that they only concerned themselves with where the core was relative to the gripping holes.
- The weakness of the newer layout systems is that they only concern themselves with where the core is relative to the PAP.

In reality, both the position of the gripping holes relative to the core AND the position of the PAP relative to the core can be important. This can be especially noticeable for situations where you are comparing the same layout for two bowlers with drastically different PAPs. For example, the below images show the same layout (80 x 5.5 x 50) for two bowlers with different vertical PAP coordinates:
Same_Layout_Different_PAPs.jpg
Both balls have the same layout, but one ends up significantly weaker than the other and the reason is completely due to the fact that the gripping holes in each ball are in different positions relative to the core.
thank you, thank you, thank you.. this was exactly my point and you illustrated it perfectly with the blueprint system.
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Re: Dual Angle resulting in pin down layout

Post by The Kid »

After trying to figure out how they were that drastically different based on how the holes could've changed the diffs, I finally noticed how much the Low RG moved in one of them. The final pin-to-Low RG must have been near or more than 6".

Another variable that's difficult to account for. Blueprint is obviously where this industry is heading.
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Re: Dual Angle resulting in pin down layout

Post by Mike »

Blueprint wrote:
Same_Layout_Different_PAPs.jpg
Both balls have the same layout, but one ends up significantly weaker than the other and the reason is completely due to the fact that the gripping holes in each ball are in different positions relative to the core.
I don't have stats, but the new release I'm playing with produces track/flare very similar to the top picture. I don't know for sure, but I'm assuming I have a large down PAP component.

Can we make any reaction/release assumptions based on this type of track/flare. I'm thinking the initial track is about 1" from finger holes and maybe 2.5" from thumb.

Thanks,

Mike
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Re: Dual Angle resulting in pin down layout

Post by Triplicate »

Mike wrote: I don't have stats, but the new release I'm playing with produces track/flare very similar to the top picture. I don't know for sure, but I'm assuming I have a large down PAP component.

Can we make any reaction/release assumptions based on this type of track/flare. I'm thinking the initial track is about 1" from finger holes and maybe 2.5" from thumb.

Thanks,

Mike
Mike... I'd like to help you but it's impossible without accurate information.

Words like "similar" "assuming" "large" "about" and "maybe" mean nothing to me or anyone else here.

What are your grips specs? Please check the wiki and this post to help yourself out.

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=373" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Dual Angle resulting in pin down layout

Post by Mike »

Triplicate wrote: Mike... I'd like to help you but it's impossible without accurate information.

Words like "similar" "assuming" "large" "about" and "maybe" mean nothing to me or anyone else here.

What are your grips specs? Please check the wiki and this post to help yourself out.

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=373" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I'm not asking for a layout or anything like that. I'm just asking are there general conclusions to be drawn from a track that tracks roughly 1" from finger holes and 2.5" from the thumb. Just general stuff man, not looking for anything concrete here. Just curious...
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