Layout advice

Which layout is right for me?

Moderator: Moderators

Walkerman10000
Member
Member
Posts: 67
Joined: March 3rd, 2013, 1:56 pm
THS Average: 210
Sport Average: 200
Positive Axis Point: 4 5/8' ---> by 1/4" ^
Speed: 16 .3 mph off my hand
Rev Rate: 300
Axis Tilt: 7
Axis Rotation: 55
Heavy Oil Ball: 900 Global Reality
Medium Oil Ball: 900 Global Zen
Light Oil Ball: Roto Grip Hustle PBR
Preferred Company: SPI Brands
Contact:

Re: Layout advice

Post by Walkerman10000 » December 13th, 2021, 1:39 am

My rubicon is drilled with an adjusted medium sport layout which is 30 x 5 1/8 x 53 which puts the pin inside of my middle finger and the mass bias is just barely left of the VAL, in the above post
I show a pic of the ball and my scores on a fresh chameleon shot. So I’m wanting my UC2 to be able to transition from the original Rubicon when the lanes open up since these sport layouts are for the fresh patterns
4 5/8” —> x 1/4” ^ PAP
55* rotation
7* tilt
300 rpm’s
16.3 mph off my hand

User avatar
EricHartwell
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 3886
Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Track Spare+
Location: Michigan

Re: Layout advice

Post by EricHartwell » December 13th, 2021, 2:01 am

Sorry, I didn't see the previous post.
40-4 1/4- 50 Pin in the Ring finger
I adjusted my recommendation slightly to give more length before engaging the core.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

Walkerman10000
Member
Member
Posts: 67
Joined: March 3rd, 2013, 1:56 pm
THS Average: 210
Sport Average: 200
Positive Axis Point: 4 5/8' ---> by 1/4" ^
Speed: 16 .3 mph off my hand
Rev Rate: 300
Axis Tilt: 7
Axis Rotation: 55
Heavy Oil Ball: 900 Global Reality
Medium Oil Ball: 900 Global Zen
Light Oil Ball: Roto Grip Hustle PBR
Preferred Company: SPI Brands
Contact:

Re: Layout advice

Post by Walkerman10000 » December 13th, 2021, 2:05 am

Here is a list of my current aresenal Eric and their layouts all of my balls are 16lbs so the numbers are usually slight different than in 15.

Roto Grip Nuclear Cell: 85 x 2.25 x 45 with 2000 surface

Storm IQ Nano Pearl: xx-4.5-30 (adjusted benchmark)

Track Ultra Heat : xx-4.5-35 (benchmark)

Storm All Road: xx-4.375–50 (adjusted control to put the pin inside of the ring finger)

Roto Grip Hustle PBR: xx-5.375-55 (adjusted low flare control to put the pin inside of my middle finger)

Radical Trailblazer: 35 x 5 x 35 (long sport shot)

Roto Grip Rubicon: 30 x 5.125 x 53 (adjusted medium sport to put pin inside of middle finger)


Balls I have undrilled still: 2nd Radical Trailblazer, and a Track Heat Lava.

Ball Wish List: Storm Proton Physix, Roto Grip Rubicon Uc2, Roto Grip UFO Alert and at least 3 Track Heat Violet Solids, and a 900
Global Zen

I’ve used your recommended layouts on every single ball in my arsenal, and i feel I can match up on about everything but the heaviest of conditions. This is the best and most versatile arsenal I’ve ever assembled, first time in my life that I’ve built an arsenal and loved throwing every ball. Most times I have at least one ball that I don’t have much confidence in and just never pull out unless nothing else is working. So you’ve really been a huge help to me.
4 5/8” —> x 1/4” ^ PAP
55* rotation
7* tilt
300 rpm’s
16.3 mph off my hand

Walkerman10000
Member
Member
Posts: 67
Joined: March 3rd, 2013, 1:56 pm
THS Average: 210
Sport Average: 200
Positive Axis Point: 4 5/8' ---> by 1/4" ^
Speed: 16 .3 mph off my hand
Rev Rate: 300
Axis Tilt: 7
Axis Rotation: 55
Heavy Oil Ball: 900 Global Reality
Medium Oil Ball: 900 Global Zen
Light Oil Ball: Roto Grip Hustle PBR
Preferred Company: SPI Brands
Contact:

Re: Layout advice

Post by Walkerman10000 » December 16th, 2021, 12:57 am

I just bought a 16lb storm proton Physix. I’m wanting advice on a layout. This ball is extremely strong and I doubt if I will be able to use it on a typical house shot. I’m thinking that maybe my pin to pap distance may need to be adjusted to be a bit weaker since this ball is so strong. I’m open to any suggestion, thanks for all of your help Eric..
4 5/8” —> x 1/4” ^ PAP
55* rotation
7* tilt
300 rpm’s
16.3 mph off my hand

User avatar
EricHartwell
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 3886
Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Track Spare+
Location: Michigan

Re: Layout advice

Post by EricHartwell » December 16th, 2021, 8:45 pm

Control ....................... 70-2.75-60

This is straight from my arsenal list for you.
It already had an adjusted Pin to PAP towards weaker.

2000 grit factory is a lot of surface.
I'm thinking that you will need a surface adjustment as well for THS.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

Walkerman10000
Member
Member
Posts: 67
Joined: March 3rd, 2013, 1:56 pm
THS Average: 210
Sport Average: 200
Positive Axis Point: 4 5/8' ---> by 1/4" ^
Speed: 16 .3 mph off my hand
Rev Rate: 300
Axis Tilt: 7
Axis Rotation: 55
Heavy Oil Ball: 900 Global Reality
Medium Oil Ball: 900 Global Zen
Light Oil Ball: Roto Grip Hustle PBR
Preferred Company: SPI Brands
Contact:

Re: Layout advice

Post by Walkerman10000 » December 19th, 2021, 6:49 am

With that 70 x 2.75 x 60 layout is that going to be a later and smooth reaction? Or with such a short pin is it going to be more roll in the fronts instead of skid? I’m guessing with this layout I’d be playing the fronts straighter and not bellying it much?
4 5/8” —> x 1/4” ^ PAP
55* rotation
7* tilt
300 rpm’s
16.3 mph off my hand

User avatar
EricHartwell
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 3886
Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Track Spare+
Location: Michigan

Re: Layout advice

Post by EricHartwell » December 19th, 2021, 5:49 pm

It depends on how dry the fronts get. It is a Strong cover.
This isn't the low flare or low flare Control I have in your Arsenal List.
It will hook. If you are looking to take the hook out of it then consider one of the low flare layouts.

The shorter pin will help to retain Tilt and Rotation so it doesn't burn up early.
The core is going to delay its action and with the higher Totals, Roll later.
The Larger VAL angle will help it be Smoother in its transition through the Hook phase.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

Walkerman10000
Member
Member
Posts: 67
Joined: March 3rd, 2013, 1:56 pm
THS Average: 210
Sport Average: 200
Positive Axis Point: 4 5/8' ---> by 1/4" ^
Speed: 16 .3 mph off my hand
Rev Rate: 300
Axis Tilt: 7
Axis Rotation: 55
Heavy Oil Ball: 900 Global Reality
Medium Oil Ball: 900 Global Zen
Light Oil Ball: Roto Grip Hustle PBR
Preferred Company: SPI Brands
Contact:

Re: Layout advice

Post by Walkerman10000 » December 19th, 2021, 6:30 pm

Ok, I’ve never drilled a ball with pin shorter than 3.5 unless it’s been a short pin which is like 2.25 or shorter. I want the ball to be smoother. But still be able to use a little head belly if the fronts allow it
4 5/8” —> x 1/4” ^ PAP
55* rotation
7* tilt
300 rpm’s
16.3 mph off my hand

User avatar
EricHartwell
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 3886
Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Track Spare+
Location: Michigan

Re: Layout advice

Post by EricHartwell » December 19th, 2021, 7:59 pm

Control ....................... 70-2.75-60
On a fresh pattern you will need to find some friction.
Once the friction develops is when you will be able to throw a big long arcing shot that should have good continuation through the pins.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

Walkerman10000
Member
Member
Posts: 67
Joined: March 3rd, 2013, 1:56 pm
THS Average: 210
Sport Average: 200
Positive Axis Point: 4 5/8' ---> by 1/4" ^
Speed: 16 .3 mph off my hand
Rev Rate: 300
Axis Tilt: 7
Axis Rotation: 55
Heavy Oil Ball: 900 Global Reality
Medium Oil Ball: 900 Global Zen
Light Oil Ball: Roto Grip Hustle PBR
Preferred Company: SPI Brands
Contact:

Re: Layout advice

Post by Walkerman10000 » January 7th, 2022, 4:25 pm

I’ve decided to switch to interchangeable thumbs, and my PSO which is a full time pba member, recommends the VISE IT system. My question is I want to have two thumbs with 2 different pitches, and if I have my PSO drill the pilot hole of all of my balls at 0/0 if there will be enough room in the two 1 1/4 slugs for the pitches that I want. In the first thumb I want 1/16 fwd and 1/8 left, and in thumb 2 I want 1/8 rev and 1/8 left. I know you use interchangeable’s Eric with different pitches in your thumbs. If I don’t have enough room with those pitches, what pitches does my PSO need to set the press at for the pilot hole to give me the room. My thumb hole size is 55/64 ovaled to 1in @ 25 degrees
4 5/8” —> x 1/4” ^ PAP
55* rotation
7* tilt
300 rpm’s
16.3 mph off my hand

boomer
Member
Member
Posts: 305
Joined: October 5th, 2012, 3:47 pm
THS Average: 200
Positive Axis Point: 6 3/16 x 1/2 up
Speed: 13.8 at pindeck
Rev Rate: 230
Preferred Company: Storm (it smells pretty)

Re: Layout advice

Post by boomer » January 7th, 2022, 4:32 pm

unless your thumb is truly massive (and mine is pretty danged huge) you should be fine. I have three different thumbs of slightly different sizes (I only use one now, mostly - was from when I dropped a ton of weight during my knee replacement) and they are all fine.

User avatar
EricHartwell
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 3886
Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Track Spare+
Location: Michigan

Re: Layout advice

Post by EricHartwell » January 7th, 2022, 6:30 pm

Walkerman10000 wrote:
January 7th, 2022, 4:25 pm
I’ve decided to switch to interchangeable thumbs, and my PSO which is a full time pba member, recommends the VISE IT system. My question is I want to have two thumbs with 2 different pitches, and if I have my PSO drill the pilot hole of all of my balls at 0/0 if there will be enough room in the two 1 1/4 slugs for the pitches that I want. In the first thumb I want 1/16 fwd and 1/8 left, and in thumb 2 I want 1/8 rev and 1/8 left. I know you use interchangeable’s Eric with different pitches in your thumbs. If I don’t have enough room with those pitches, what pitches does my PSO need to set the press at for the pilot hole to give me the room. My thumb hole size is 55/64 ovaled to 1in @ 25 degrees
I use Turbo Switchgrips. There is more room for pitch and lateral adjustments with them.
My middle point is 1/4 left 1/4 reverse.
I have 1/8 left 1/8 reverse as well as 3/8 left 3/8 reverse. I think I could have a 0/0 or 1/2-1/2 but would have to be very careful at the bottom as to not blow out the side of it.
My interchangeable thumbs are 13/16 pilot with +.090 oval up to 27/32 with .090 oval.

So with your range 1/8 left and 1/32 reverse would be middle.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

Walkerman10000
Member
Member
Posts: 67
Joined: March 3rd, 2013, 1:56 pm
THS Average: 210
Sport Average: 200
Positive Axis Point: 4 5/8' ---> by 1/4" ^
Speed: 16 .3 mph off my hand
Rev Rate: 300
Axis Tilt: 7
Axis Rotation: 55
Heavy Oil Ball: 900 Global Reality
Medium Oil Ball: 900 Global Zen
Light Oil Ball: Roto Grip Hustle PBR
Preferred Company: SPI Brands
Contact:

Re: Layout advice

Post by Walkerman10000 » January 7th, 2022, 7:21 pm

Ok so I need to tell my PSO to set the pilot hole pitches on my bowling balls to 1/32 reverse and 1/8 left then? Then he would add 3/32 forward to one slug and 3/32 reverse in the other thumb to get my final pitches of 1/16 forward and 1/8 reverse with 1/8 left in each one respectively?
4 5/8” —> x 1/4” ^ PAP
55* rotation
7* tilt
300 rpm’s
16.3 mph off my hand

User avatar
EricHartwell
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 3886
Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Track Spare+
Location: Michigan

Re: Layout advice

Post by EricHartwell » January 7th, 2022, 8:28 pm

Walkerman10000 wrote:
January 7th, 2022, 7:21 pm
Ok so I need to tell my PSO to set the pilot hole pitches on my bowling balls to 1/32 reverse and 1/8 left then? Then he would add 3/32 forward to one slug and 3/32 reverse in the other thumb to get my final pitches of 1/16 forward and 1/8 reverse with 1/8 left in each one respectively?
Yes, being careful of course with the depth. At ~4" your oval cuts might go through the side if my math is correct.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

Walkerman10000
Member
Member
Posts: 67
Joined: March 3rd, 2013, 1:56 pm
THS Average: 210
Sport Average: 200
Positive Axis Point: 4 5/8' ---> by 1/4" ^
Speed: 16 .3 mph off my hand
Rev Rate: 300
Axis Tilt: 7
Axis Rotation: 55
Heavy Oil Ball: 900 Global Reality
Medium Oil Ball: 900 Global Zen
Light Oil Ball: Roto Grip Hustle PBR
Preferred Company: SPI Brands
Contact:

Re: Layout advice

Post by Walkerman10000 » January 7th, 2022, 8:49 pm

Ok I’ll let them know, I have 10 balls to convert to interchangeable’s and I just made the change to 1/16 forward on the proton Physix and i absolutely have loved the change so much, I actually feel like I’m catching the ball at the bottom again, but at the same time I still want to be able to switch to the pitches I’ve thrown for the last year plus which is 1/8 reverse 1/8 left, when I want to get out of the ball quicker and softer
4 5/8” —> x 1/4” ^ PAP
55* rotation
7* tilt
300 rpm’s
16.3 mph off my hand

TomaHawk
Pro Shop
Pro Shop
Posts: 523
Joined: July 19th, 2010, 3:28 pm
Location: Michigan

Re: Layout advice

Post by TomaHawk » January 15th, 2022, 3:21 pm

Walkerman10000 wrote:
January 7th, 2022, 4:25 pm
I’ve decided to switch to interchangeable thumbs, and my PSO which is a full time pba member, recommends the VISE IT system. My question is I want to have two thumbs with 2 different pitches, and if I have my PSO drill the pilot hole of all of my balls at 0/0 if there will be enough room in the two 1 1/4 slugs for the pitches that I want. In the first thumb I want 1/16 fwd and 1/8 left, and in thumb 2 I want 1/8 rev and 1/8 left. I know you use interchangeable’s Eric with different pitches in your thumbs. If I don’t have enough room with those pitches, what pitches does my PSO need to set the press at for the pilot hole to give me the room. My thumb hole size is 55/64 ovaled to 1in @ 25 degrees
Why not go with 1 3/8" IT?

Walkerman10000
Member
Member
Posts: 67
Joined: March 3rd, 2013, 1:56 pm
THS Average: 210
Sport Average: 200
Positive Axis Point: 4 5/8' ---> by 1/4" ^
Speed: 16 .3 mph off my hand
Rev Rate: 300
Axis Tilt: 7
Axis Rotation: 55
Heavy Oil Ball: 900 Global Reality
Medium Oil Ball: 900 Global Zen
Light Oil Ball: Roto Grip Hustle PBR
Preferred Company: SPI Brands
Contact:

Re: Layout advice

Post by Walkerman10000 » July 4th, 2022, 1:30 am

Ok my stats have changed a bit and I really would like my new layouts, and please include the sport shot layouts as well and the low flare and low flare control symmetric as well, just basically every layout type that you can do for me.

My new stats:

PAP: 4 5/8 > x 1/4 ^
Axis Tilt: 7 degrees
Axis Rotation: 55 degrees
Rpm’s: 300
Ball Speed: 16.3 mph off my hand

I’m now a matched bowler instead of rev dominant, I’ve softened up my release a bit bowling regionals and sweepers on a bunch of really tough patterns. Thanks again Eric for everything you do and I’ll update my profile ASAP!!
4 5/8” —> x 1/4” ^ PAP
55* rotation
7* tilt
300 rpm’s
16.3 mph off my hand

User avatar
EricHartwell
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 3886
Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Track Spare+
Location: Michigan

Re: Layout advice

Post by EricHartwell » July 6th, 2022, 9:40 pm

Your lower Tilt still has you in the Rev Dominant category.
Benchmark ......2.5:1 Ratio 105* Totals

With Lower Tilt(Higher Track) layouts with Larger VAL angles (Pin down) will run risk of hitting gripping holes.
One thing helping you in this regard is your PAP is less than 5" helping keep your initial Track further from your grip.

As far as Layouts you are just a small adjustment from the Arsenal list I gave you for these specs...

17 mph off my hand
350 rpm’s
3 5/8 over by 1/4 down PAP
10 degrees of Tilt
55 degrees of rotation
EricHartwell wrote:
September 26th, 2021, 1:13 am
With your new release specs this is an optimal layout for you.

Utilize the basic principles of the Dual Angles and adjust +/- 20^ to one or the other angles.
To adjust skid length use the Drilling Angle. +10 for Max skid and -20* to get the core revving early.
Adjust the hook length with the VAL angle, +/-20*. -20* to get that snap, or +20* to Smooth it out.

With Asyms, adjust Pin distance for flare, 4" for max flare, 5" for more forward roll, early roll when combined with a smaller VAL angle.
Shorter pin to PAP to delay the roll.
With Symmetrical balls stick with the longer Pin to PAPs 4" to 5.5"

You are now a little bit more Rev dominant.
Benchmark 115* Total, 2.25:1 Ratio

Asymmetrical Layouts
Totally Strong ............... 70-4.5-25
Midlane ....................... 60-4-35
Benchmark ................... 80-2.75-35
Long and Strong ............. 90-2.5-35
Control ....................... 80-2.5-55
low flare ..................... 90-2-35
low flare control ............ 90-1.5-55

Symmetrical Layouts
Strongest ..................... xx-4-25
Benchmark ................... xx-4.5-30
Control ....................... xx-4.5-50 adjust to Pin in the middle Finger
low flare ..................... xx-5.5-30
Today you are slightly less Rev Dominant
From this list and where you are today I would just subtract 5* from all the VAL angles
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

Walkerman10000
Member
Member
Posts: 67
Joined: March 3rd, 2013, 1:56 pm
THS Average: 210
Sport Average: 200
Positive Axis Point: 4 5/8' ---> by 1/4" ^
Speed: 16 .3 mph off my hand
Rev Rate: 300
Axis Tilt: 7
Axis Rotation: 55
Heavy Oil Ball: 900 Global Reality
Medium Oil Ball: 900 Global Zen
Light Oil Ball: Roto Grip Hustle PBR
Preferred Company: SPI Brands
Contact:

Re: Layout advice

Post by Walkerman10000 » July 8th, 2022, 8:37 pm

Ok thanks Eric, what would my new sport layouts be? I do not bowl on house shots much anymore so I’ve been using the sport layouts a lot on my asyms, also I’ve been drilling my symmetrical stuff with benchmark numbers but using a 4 7/8 pin to pap distance, and having a lot of success having a more forward motion off the spot. What is your opinion with me using a slightly longer pin to pap?
4 5/8” —> x 1/4” ^ PAP
55* rotation
7* tilt
300 rpm’s
16.3 mph off my hand

Post Reply