Layout advice

Which layout is right for me?

Moderator: Moderators

Walkerman10000
Member
Member
Posts: 41
Joined: March 3rd, 2013, 1:56 pm
THS Average: 195
Sport Average: 190
Positive Axis Point: 4 5/8' ---> by 1/4" ^
Speed: 15 mph off my hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 15
Axis Rotation: 55
Heavy Oil Ball: storm virtual gravity nano
Medium Oil Ball: storm crossroad
Light Oil Ball: 900 global link s30
Preferred Company: Storm and Brunswick
Contact:

Layout advice

Post by Walkerman10000 » September 18th, 2021, 4:55 pm

I’m needing some layout advice on a 900 global zen and a storm iq tour nano pearl. I’m bowling on a THS 40 feet with 23 mils of oil. My stats are:

RH
17 mph off my hand
55 degrees of axis rotation
20 degrees of axis tilt
350 rpm’s
PAP is 4-1/2 over by 1/2 up
I’m slightly rev dominate
4 5/8” —> x 1/4” ^ PAP
55* rotation
15* tilt
330 rpm’s
15 mph off my hand

User avatar
EricHartwell
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 3782
Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous
Medium Oil Ball: Motiv Villain, Hammer Nail, Brunswick True Motion
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Columbia Nitrous
Location: Michigan

Re: Layout advice

Post by EricHartwell » September 18th, 2021, 5:46 pm

You are a little bit Rev dominant.
Benchmark 105* Total, 1:1.25 Ratio

Asymmetrical Layouts
Totally Strong ............... 55-5-30
Midlane ....................... 35-4.5-50 adjust to pin in the ring finger
Benchmark ................... 60-4.25-45
Long and Strong ............. 80-4.25-45
Control ....................... 60-4-65
low flare ..................... 80-2.25-45

Symmetrical Layouts
Benchmark ................... xx-4-40
Control ....................... xx-4.5-60
low flare ..................... xx-5-35

So for the balls you chose to drill...
I would put the Symmetrical Benchmark drilling on each one.
The Zen is a High differential Symmetric and the IQ is a low differential Symmetric.
The core properties alone will make the Benchmark drillings very much different from each other.
Add in some surface grit tuning to further differentiate them.

I would play your choices opposite of how they come out of the box.
The Zen with dull to matte surface for the fresh oil and shine the IQ for when the lanes start to break down.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

Walkerman10000
Member
Member
Posts: 41
Joined: March 3rd, 2013, 1:56 pm
THS Average: 195
Sport Average: 190
Positive Axis Point: 4 5/8' ---> by 1/4" ^
Speed: 15 mph off my hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 15
Axis Rotation: 55
Heavy Oil Ball: storm virtual gravity nano
Medium Oil Ball: storm crossroad
Light Oil Ball: 900 global link s30
Preferred Company: Storm and Brunswick
Contact:

Re: Layout advice

Post by Walkerman10000 » September 18th, 2021, 5:57 pm

Ok thanks, on symmetrical equipment does the first number no longer matter on the dual angle layout’s? I’m just now getting back into bowling after my job didn’t allow me to bowl for a few years
4 5/8” —> x 1/4” ^ PAP
55* rotation
15* tilt
330 rpm’s
15 mph off my hand

User avatar
EricHartwell
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 3782
Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous
Medium Oil Ball: Motiv Villain, Hammer Nail, Brunswick True Motion
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Columbia Nitrous
Location: Michigan

Re: Layout advice

Post by EricHartwell » September 18th, 2021, 6:43 pm

Yes that's correct. It really limits what you can do with Layouts on Symmetrical equipment.
The Drilling angle can no longer be manipulated. It is based on where the thumbhole is in relation to your particular PAP.
If you want to know what the drilling angle actually is, measure it to your Thumbhole.
Or, get access to a De-Terminator to most accurately measure it.

If you want Symmetrical equipment to rev up sooner, drill it High flare.
Utilize low flare setups to get the action of the core further down the lane.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

Walkerman10000
Member
Member
Posts: 41
Joined: March 3rd, 2013, 1:56 pm
THS Average: 195
Sport Average: 190
Positive Axis Point: 4 5/8' ---> by 1/4" ^
Speed: 15 mph off my hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 15
Axis Rotation: 55
Heavy Oil Ball: storm virtual gravity nano
Medium Oil Ball: storm crossroad
Light Oil Ball: 900 global link s30
Preferred Company: Storm and Brunswick
Contact:

Re: Layout advice

Post by Walkerman10000 » September 18th, 2021, 7:31 pm

Ok so is my benchmark layout for symmetrical going to to be a pin up layout I’m thinking? My span is 4-1/2 inches cut to cut and I use a thumb slug
Last edited by Walkerman10000 on September 18th, 2021, 8:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
4 5/8” —> x 1/4” ^ PAP
55* rotation
15* tilt
330 rpm’s
15 mph off my hand

User avatar
EricHartwell
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 3782
Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous
Medium Oil Ball: Motiv Villain, Hammer Nail, Brunswick True Motion
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Columbia Nitrous
Location: Michigan

Re: Layout advice

Post by EricHartwell » September 18th, 2021, 7:46 pm

Walkerman10000 wrote:
September 18th, 2021, 7:31 pm
Ok so is my benchmark layout for symmetrical going into to be a pin up layout I’m thinking? My span is 4-1/2 inches cut to cut and I use a thumb slug
Speaking very generally yes.
Pay attention to Pin to PAP distance to control the amount of flare.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

Walkerman10000
Member
Member
Posts: 41
Joined: March 3rd, 2013, 1:56 pm
THS Average: 195
Sport Average: 190
Positive Axis Point: 4 5/8' ---> by 1/4" ^
Speed: 15 mph off my hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 15
Axis Rotation: 55
Heavy Oil Ball: storm virtual gravity nano
Medium Oil Ball: storm crossroad
Light Oil Ball: 900 global link s30
Preferred Company: Storm and Brunswick
Contact:

Re: Layout advice

Post by Walkerman10000 » September 18th, 2021, 7:58 pm

Ok thanks for all the help Eric, I’m just trying to kinda visualize what the layout is going to look like, to make sure the ball driller does it correctly. I used your recommended layouts for a six ball arsenal 6 years ago and I ended up bowling my best series ever in the greater ozark open that year and cashed in the team event, singles, and all events.
4 5/8” —> x 1/4” ^ PAP
55* rotation
15* tilt
330 rpm’s
15 mph off my hand

Walkerman10000
Member
Member
Posts: 41
Joined: March 3rd, 2013, 1:56 pm
THS Average: 195
Sport Average: 190
Positive Axis Point: 4 5/8' ---> by 1/4" ^
Speed: 15 mph off my hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 15
Axis Rotation: 55
Heavy Oil Ball: storm virtual gravity nano
Medium Oil Ball: storm crossroad
Light Oil Ball: 900 global link s30
Preferred Company: Storm and Brunswick
Contact:

Re: Layout advice

Post by Walkerman10000 » September 19th, 2021, 1:10 am

What kind of ball would you recommend for me to put a short pin layout on? I’m really wanting to try a short pin layout on my next asym purchase.
4 5/8” —> x 1/4” ^ PAP
55* rotation
15* tilt
330 rpm’s
15 mph off my hand

User avatar
EricHartwell
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 3782
Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous
Medium Oil Ball: Motiv Villain, Hammer Nail, Brunswick True Motion
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Columbia Nitrous
Location: Michigan

Re: Layout advice

Post by EricHartwell » September 19th, 2021, 2:31 am

The Short Pin Asym will be an interesting layout for you.
By this I mean with 20* of Tilt your Sweetspot is a little bit in the opposite direction favoring longer Pin to PAPs for Asymmetrical equipment.
Not that it can't be utilized by someone with higher Tilt. Chances are that you will favor a more dull to matte surface.
Without enough friction the ball will store the tilt too long and roll characteristics won't be at its most optimum.
Shorter Pin to PAP Asym layouts usually favor the lower Tilt bowler.
With all that said I would look for a ball that is not necessarily Asymmetrically Strong .013 to .018 Int Diff
Some of the new offerings today are pushing the limits of Asymmetry.
I would not recommend something like the new Radical Maximum Resuts unless you wanted something totally opposite a low flare lalyout.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

Walkerman10000
Member
Member
Posts: 41
Joined: March 3rd, 2013, 1:56 pm
THS Average: 195
Sport Average: 190
Positive Axis Point: 4 5/8' ---> by 1/4" ^
Speed: 15 mph off my hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 15
Axis Rotation: 55
Heavy Oil Ball: storm virtual gravity nano
Medium Oil Ball: storm crossroad
Light Oil Ball: 900 global link s30
Preferred Company: Storm and Brunswick
Contact:

Re: Layout advice

Post by Walkerman10000 » September 19th, 2021, 3:35 am

Do you think the storm proton physics would be a ball that I could possibly try a short pin layout on? I throw 16lbs so with that the diffs are sometimes different than in 15lbs. In that ball the intermediate diff is .017 and it’s a dull finish. That’s a really strong ball though also. Sometimes I have trouble when the heads go away being able to get my ball down lane far enough without burning up with all the stronger pin placements my higher tilt forces me to use. Was hoping maybe a short pin layout would help with that a bit, letting me stay farther right, going straighter.
4 5/8” —> x 1/4” ^ PAP
55* rotation
15* tilt
330 rpm’s
15 mph off my hand

User avatar
EricHartwell
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 3782
Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous
Medium Oil Ball: Motiv Villain, Hammer Nail, Brunswick True Motion
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Columbia Nitrous
Location: Michigan

Re: Layout advice

Post by EricHartwell » September 19th, 2021, 4:47 am

If your dealing with a lot of friction it it could give you a go to ball.

As for the Proton PhysiX, You are right in the fact it is a Strong ball. 2000 is also pretty aggressive out of the box.
You will probably want to smooth it up a little play it more matte than dull.

It is also a High differential giving it more flare potential.
I would lay it out with my PAP from a non flaring ball.
By not doing so you run risk of getting too much flare defeating the effort in getting a low flare set up.

Are you trying to stay inside the Storm family with your arsenal?
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

Walkerman10000
Member
Member
Posts: 41
Joined: March 3rd, 2013, 1:56 pm
THS Average: 195
Sport Average: 190
Positive Axis Point: 4 5/8' ---> by 1/4" ^
Speed: 15 mph off my hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 15
Axis Rotation: 55
Heavy Oil Ball: storm virtual gravity nano
Medium Oil Ball: storm crossroad
Light Oil Ball: 900 global link s30
Preferred Company: Storm and Brunswick
Contact:

Re: Layout advice

Post by Walkerman10000 » September 19th, 2021, 5:06 am

No I’m open to throwing any company, I just have the most experience throwing storm products recently. Before ebonite bought track I threw that company exclusively, the old track triton heat is still my all time fav ball ever. Once ebi bought track I threw nothing but Brunswick, the total inferno is my fav ever Brunswick ball. I made the switch to storm in about 2012, for me that company gives me the same type of ball motion that track used to give me which I love. But I have thrown some Radical, and I’ve owned almost all of the roto grip cell’s which the hyper cell in my top 5 fav balls ever. So I’ve also been looking at possibly trying a nuclear cell. I’ve been out of bowling 5 years, so I’m open to try anything, I’m just more comfy with how the storm equipment reacts for me.
4 5/8” —> x 1/4” ^ PAP
55* rotation
15* tilt
330 rpm’s
15 mph off my hand

User avatar
EricHartwell
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 3782
Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous
Medium Oil Ball: Motiv Villain, Hammer Nail, Brunswick True Motion
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Columbia Nitrous
Location: Michigan

Re: Layout advice

Post by EricHartwell » September 19th, 2021, 5:37 am

I like the Nuclear Cell for your low flare set up. 16# specs look really good for what you are after.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

Walkerman10000
Member
Member
Posts: 41
Joined: March 3rd, 2013, 1:56 pm
THS Average: 195
Sport Average: 190
Positive Axis Point: 4 5/8' ---> by 1/4" ^
Speed: 15 mph off my hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 15
Axis Rotation: 55
Heavy Oil Ball: storm virtual gravity nano
Medium Oil Ball: storm crossroad
Light Oil Ball: 900 global link s30
Preferred Company: Storm and Brunswick
Contact:

Re: Layout advice

Post by Walkerman10000 » September 25th, 2021, 6:21 pm

Just got threw some balls for my ball driller and my specs have changed a lot since my time off.

17 mph off my hand
350 rpm’s
3 5/8 over by 1/4 down PAP
10 degrees of Tilt
55 degrees of rotation


I need my new layouts for a THS
4 5/8” —> x 1/4” ^ PAP
55* rotation
15* tilt
330 rpm’s
15 mph off my hand

Walkerman10000
Member
Member
Posts: 41
Joined: March 3rd, 2013, 1:56 pm
THS Average: 195
Sport Average: 190
Positive Axis Point: 4 5/8' ---> by 1/4" ^
Speed: 15 mph off my hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 15
Axis Rotation: 55
Heavy Oil Ball: storm virtual gravity nano
Medium Oil Ball: storm crossroad
Light Oil Ball: 900 global link s30
Preferred Company: Storm and Brunswick
Contact:

Re: Layout advice

Post by Walkerman10000 » September 25th, 2021, 10:52 pm

7C44878F-9AAF-4105-97B2-2701228A850F.jpeg
Just drilled up a Nuclear Cell with a short pin layout, and I put the surface to 2000. I absolutely love this layout, I bowled 4 games with the new ball and the layout and surface change have given me the exact look that I was wanting. I’m able to keep my angles in the fronts tighter, but the ball still has plenty of down lane pop and angle. I was carrying everything in practice, I can’t wait to roll this ball in league next week! The layout is 80 x 2.25 x 45
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
4 5/8” —> x 1/4” ^ PAP
55* rotation
15* tilt
330 rpm’s
15 mph off my hand

User avatar
EricHartwell
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 3782
Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous
Medium Oil Ball: Motiv Villain, Hammer Nail, Brunswick True Motion
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Columbia Nitrous
Location: Michigan

Re: Layout advice

Post by EricHartwell » September 26th, 2021, 1:13 am

With your new release specs this is an optimal layout for you.

Utilize the basic principles of the Dual Angles and adjust +/- 20^ to one or the other angles.
To adjust skid length use the Drilling Angle. +10 for Max skid and -20* to get the core revving early.
Adjust the hook length with the VAL angle, +/-20*. -20* to get that snap, or +20* to Smooth it out.

With Asyms, adjust Pin distance for flare, 4" for max flare, 5" for more forward roll, early roll when combined with a smaller VAL angle.
Shorter pin to PAP to delay the roll.
With Symmetrical balls stick with the longer Pin to PAPs 4" to 5.5"

You are now a little bit more Rev dominant.
Benchmark 115* Total, 2.25:1 Ratio

Asymmetrical Layouts
Totally Strong ............... 70-4.5-25
Midlane ....................... 60-4-35
Benchmark ................... 80-2.75-35
Long and Strong ............. 90-2.5-35
Control ....................... 80-2.5-55
low flare ..................... 90-2-35
low flare control ............ 90-1.5-55

Symmetrical Layouts
Strongest ..................... xx-4-25
Benchmark ................... xx-4.5-30
Control ....................... xx-4.5-50 adjust to Pin in the middle Finger
low flare ..................... xx-5.5-30
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

Walkerman10000
Member
Member
Posts: 41
Joined: March 3rd, 2013, 1:56 pm
THS Average: 195
Sport Average: 190
Positive Axis Point: 4 5/8' ---> by 1/4" ^
Speed: 15 mph off my hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 15
Axis Rotation: 55
Heavy Oil Ball: storm virtual gravity nano
Medium Oil Ball: storm crossroad
Light Oil Ball: 900 global link s30
Preferred Company: Storm and Brunswick
Contact:

Re: Layout advice

Post by Walkerman10000 » September 26th, 2021, 2:46 am

Ok thanks Eric in about a month I’m going to drill the 900 Global Zen with my benchmark layout, I had my pro shop driller add some forward pitch to my ring finger to try and raise my track a bit, we’re going to check my PAP and tilt next month with this Nuclear Cell and hopefully the pitch change will have raised my track, I’ve always been a bit of a spinner but never this much before
4 5/8” —> x 1/4” ^ PAP
55* rotation
15* tilt
330 rpm’s
15 mph off my hand

Walkerman10000
Member
Member
Posts: 41
Joined: March 3rd, 2013, 1:56 pm
THS Average: 195
Sport Average: 190
Positive Axis Point: 4 5/8' ---> by 1/4" ^
Speed: 15 mph off my hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 15
Axis Rotation: 55
Heavy Oil Ball: storm virtual gravity nano
Medium Oil Ball: storm crossroad
Light Oil Ball: 900 global link s30
Preferred Company: Storm and Brunswick
Contact:

Re: Layout advice

Post by Walkerman10000 » September 30th, 2021, 2:11 pm

I’m pre ordering a Radical Trailblazer, which layout would you recommend for me on that ball? I’m thinking the long and strong or control layout
4 5/8” —> x 1/4” ^ PAP
55* rotation
15* tilt
330 rpm’s
15 mph off my hand

44boyd
Member
Member
Posts: 631
Joined: January 25th, 2017, 3:10 am
Preferred Company: Radical, Brunswick
Location: Valrico Florida

Re: Layout advice

Post by 44boyd » September 30th, 2021, 2:46 pm

Did the pitch change do anything for your stats?
Stacy

Walkerman10000
Member
Member
Posts: 41
Joined: March 3rd, 2013, 1:56 pm
THS Average: 195
Sport Average: 190
Positive Axis Point: 4 5/8' ---> by 1/4" ^
Speed: 15 mph off my hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 15
Axis Rotation: 55
Heavy Oil Ball: storm virtual gravity nano
Medium Oil Ball: storm crossroad
Light Oil Ball: 900 global link s30
Preferred Company: Storm and Brunswick
Contact:

Re: Layout advice

Post by Walkerman10000 » September 30th, 2021, 2:51 pm

I haven’t actually gotten back to the pro shop yet to remeasure my PAP, but from looking at the flare rings on the Nuclear Cell when wiping it down between shots, the rings are noticeably closer to the thumb, and looks more like what my PAP was previously which was something like 4 1/2 inches by 1/2 up, but I’m going to drill a IQ Tour Nano Pearl a week from Saturday and we will remeasure my PAP and tilt to see if it’s changed and how much if it has changed. I live 2 hours away from the Proshop that I use to drill my equipment, so that’s why I haven’t actually remeasured my PAP yet, but I’ve also only been bowling 5 days with the pitch change in my ring finger.
4 5/8” —> x 1/4” ^ PAP
55* rotation
15* tilt
330 rpm’s
15 mph off my hand

Post Reply