Clipping thumb hole late

Which layout is right for me?

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ICURNVS
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THS Average: 220
Positive Axis Point: 4 1/2 -> 3/4 up
Speed: 16.8 Monitor
Rev Rate: 375
Axis Tilt: 11
Axis Rotation: 30
Heavy Oil Ball: Track Proof
Medium Oil Ball: Omega Crux / Pro Motion
Light Oil Ball: Columbia Outlook / Marvel Pearl
Location: Canton, Ohio

Clipping thumb hole late

Post by ICURNVS » March 30th, 2021, 2:13 pm

We tried one of storms different layouts on a Proton Physix for my son.

4 1/2 * 4 * 0

Pin is on the Val. Ball rolls really well with a very late sharp breakpoint, but after the ball transitions out of the hook phase into the roll its clipping the thumb hole about 2' before the pocket.

Normally before this year.. it would just be pop a small weight hole and call it a day. So i am looking for some feed back on getting it off the thumb hole late.

Drill fingers deeper? Shallower?
Drill Thumb deeper? Shallower?

I would prefer not to completely plug and redrill, but if its needed i guess ill do what i gotta do.

Matt

** Edit ** his stats
tilt 11deg
rotation 45deg
speed off hand 15ish
Rev rate 325ish
** UPDATED STATS AS OF 6-06-19 **
Right Hand
PAP 4 1/2-> 3/4 up
ROTATION 20 - 30
TILT 11.5*
MPH 14.5-15.2 MONITOR
RPM 350-375
RIP Visionary Bowling Products.....

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EricHartwell
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Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous
Medium Oil Ball: Motiv Villain, Hammer Nail, Brunswick True Motion
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Columbia Nitrous
Location: Michigan

Re: Clipping thumb hole late

Post by EricHartwell » March 31st, 2021, 1:02 am

What is his PAP?
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

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EricHartwell
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Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous
Medium Oil Ball: Motiv Villain, Hammer Nail, Brunswick True Motion
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Columbia Nitrous
Location: Michigan

Re: Clipping thumb hole late

Post by EricHartwell » March 31st, 2021, 2:11 am

After posting I realized I really didn't need to know his PAP.

I've had 2 very high flaring setups in my past and was able to get rev dominant enough to thump the thumb hole on the back end.

This will be a good ball for him to use to improve his release.
His estimated specs have him very rev dominant.
I feel he is too rev dominant, not enough speed.
The thump, thump thump right before it hits the pins will tell him that he is not rolling the ball fast enough.
Get him to roll matched speed to revs and it won't roll over the thumb anymore.

Then actually measure his release specs and we can figure out some good layouts for him to use.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

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ICURNVS
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Posts: 435
Joined: December 28th, 2010, 9:28 pm
THS Average: 220
Positive Axis Point: 4 1/2 -> 3/4 up
Speed: 16.8 Monitor
Rev Rate: 375
Axis Tilt: 11
Axis Rotation: 30
Heavy Oil Ball: Track Proof
Medium Oil Ball: Omega Crux / Pro Motion
Light Oil Ball: Columbia Outlook / Marvel Pearl
Location: Canton, Ohio

Re: Clipping thumb hole late

Post by ICURNVS » March 31st, 2021, 2:22 pm

just so its here..

His PAP is 5--> 1/4 up
** UPDATED STATS AS OF 6-06-19 **
Right Hand
PAP 4 1/2-> 3/4 up
ROTATION 20 - 30
TILT 11.5*
MPH 14.5-15.2 MONITOR
RPM 350-375
RIP Visionary Bowling Products.....

44boyd
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Re: Clipping thumb hole late

Post by 44boyd » March 31st, 2021, 4:31 pm

I’d say a larger drill angle and shorter Pin to Pap to retain tilt, I’d try less surface first
Stacy

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ICURNVS
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Posts: 435
Joined: December 28th, 2010, 9:28 pm
THS Average: 220
Positive Axis Point: 4 1/2 -> 3/4 up
Speed: 16.8 Monitor
Rev Rate: 375
Axis Tilt: 11
Axis Rotation: 30
Heavy Oil Ball: Track Proof
Medium Oil Ball: Omega Crux / Pro Motion
Light Oil Ball: Columbia Outlook / Marvel Pearl
Location: Canton, Ohio

Re: Clipping thumb hole late

Post by ICURNVS » March 31st, 2021, 5:41 pm

I picked up this ball on the cheap.. was a 2H'ers ball so i only had to plug the fingers to get it where i wanted it.

Eric,

I think your spot on with this.. and maybe the layout just isnt for him. but it gives us something to work on.

Assuming i cant get him paired up, and since we can't use weight holes... to get that late flare lower would i drill the fingers or thumb deeper?
** UPDATED STATS AS OF 6-06-19 **
Right Hand
PAP 4 1/2-> 3/4 up
ROTATION 20 - 30
TILT 11.5*
MPH 14.5-15.2 MONITOR
RPM 350-375
RIP Visionary Bowling Products.....

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EricHartwell
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Posts: 3729
Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous
Medium Oil Ball: Motiv Villain, Hammer Nail, Brunswick True Motion
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Columbia Nitrous
Location: Michigan

Re: Clipping thumb hole late

Post by EricHartwell » March 31st, 2021, 10:18 pm

Normally I would say fingers but in this case with the Pin so far away from the fingers it could possibly increase flare.
I don't think you would really be able to tell if it helped or not.

It is a layout that goes outside the design parameters of the Dual Angle system. Which is a 20* VAL angle on the minimum side not 0 .
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

User avatar
ICURNVS
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Posts: 435
Joined: December 28th, 2010, 9:28 pm
THS Average: 220
Positive Axis Point: 4 1/2 -> 3/4 up
Speed: 16.8 Monitor
Rev Rate: 375
Axis Tilt: 11
Axis Rotation: 30
Heavy Oil Ball: Track Proof
Medium Oil Ball: Omega Crux / Pro Motion
Light Oil Ball: Columbia Outlook / Marvel Pearl
Location: Canton, Ohio

Re: Clipping thumb hole late

Post by ICURNVS » April 1st, 2021, 6:11 pm

we drilled both fingers deeper... helped a little bit, but still flaring over the thumb. We will just live with it.
** UPDATED STATS AS OF 6-06-19 **
Right Hand
PAP 4 1/2-> 3/4 up
ROTATION 20 - 30
TILT 11.5*
MPH 14.5-15.2 MONITOR
RPM 350-375
RIP Visionary Bowling Products.....

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Glenn
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Re: Clipping thumb hole late

Post by Glenn » April 1st, 2021, 9:55 pm

I am late to this party. LOL!

As I understand it, keeping the angle between the Pin-to-PAP line and the VAL between 20* and approximately 70* will help prevent the drilled ball from rolling over either the middle finger hole or the thumb hole. Some literature even has the allowable DA range of 5 to 120 and an allowable VAL range of 5 to 90. Also, the Storm VLS can generate layout recommendations that will not convert to dual angle (out of range values).
Bowling is more art than science ...

User avatar
ICURNVS
Member
Member
Posts: 435
Joined: December 28th, 2010, 9:28 pm
THS Average: 220
Positive Axis Point: 4 1/2 -> 3/4 up
Speed: 16.8 Monitor
Rev Rate: 375
Axis Tilt: 11
Axis Rotation: 30
Heavy Oil Ball: Track Proof
Medium Oil Ball: Omega Crux / Pro Motion
Light Oil Ball: Columbia Outlook / Marvel Pearl
Location: Canton, Ohio

Re: Clipping thumb hole late

Post by ICURNVS » April 2nd, 2021, 12:59 pm

Glenn...

This is a special layout some of the Storm Staffers are using.. ALLEGEDLY its to create length and a very late breakpoint. If you pay attention to some of the storm guys on tour you can spot it pretty easy. Pin is 2 or 3 inches above ring finger and to the right.. which in most cases will put it on the VAL.

Drill works as intended, and as Eric pointed out he has some small flaw in his release that is causing the clipping... I will find it and fix it.
** UPDATED STATS AS OF 6-06-19 **
Right Hand
PAP 4 1/2-> 3/4 up
ROTATION 20 - 30
TILT 11.5*
MPH 14.5-15.2 MONITOR
RPM 350-375
RIP Visionary Bowling Products.....

User avatar
EricHartwell
Trusted Source
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Posts: 3729
Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous
Medium Oil Ball: Motiv Villain, Hammer Nail, Brunswick True Motion
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Columbia Nitrous
Location: Michigan

Re: Clipping thumb hole late

Post by EricHartwell » April 2nd, 2021, 3:54 pm

How many of these staffers are using a high differential ball with this layout?

I see it being used on low differential equipment as a way to kill it even further. Put that layout on low differential ball like Darren Tang is doing and the thumping of the thumb hole might not be an issue.
Choosing the right ball for "special layouts" can be critical as seen in this exercise.

Stick to the guidelines for the dual angle method as outlined in the Wiki and issues with tracking over gripping holes will be greatly minimized.

Or...Take things to the opposite extreme and drill him up a Rico drilling and see how that goes.
I can tell you how it will go, with his lower tilt and high track, it will flare over the finger holes.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

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Glenn
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Re: Clipping thumb hole late

Post by Glenn » April 2nd, 2021, 6:21 pm

ICURNVS wrote:
April 2nd, 2021, 12:59 pm
Glenn...

This is a special layout some of the Storm Staffers are using.. ALLEGEDLY its to create length and a very late breakpoint. If you pay attention to some of the storm guys on tour you can spot it pretty easy. Pin is 2 or 3 inches above ring finger and to the right.. which in most cases will put it on the VAL.

Drill works as intended, and as Eric pointed out he has some small flaw in his release that is causing the clipping... I will find it and fix it.
ICURVNS,

Ohhhh! Those Storm guys!
Yeah, I noticed that one of the Storm staffers runs his PhysiX at 3 x 5 x 1 (hook/set?) which puts the VAL at the minimum of 20*.

So, I would guess that this 45* x 4-1/2 x 0* layout would be for an advanced bowler playing on longer patterns with heavier oil?

On what conditions do you intend to use this ball and layout? Inquiring minds want to know! LOL!

It is interesting that the drill spec sheet Storm puts with the Physix does not have a layout like this listed.
But the closest one they show to it is the 4 x 4 x 1, and it puts the VAL outside of the accepted minimum of 20*.

Glenn
Bowling is more art than science ...

User avatar
ICURNVS
Member
Member
Posts: 435
Joined: December 28th, 2010, 9:28 pm
THS Average: 220
Positive Axis Point: 4 1/2 -> 3/4 up
Speed: 16.8 Monitor
Rev Rate: 375
Axis Tilt: 11
Axis Rotation: 30
Heavy Oil Ball: Track Proof
Medium Oil Ball: Omega Crux / Pro Motion
Light Oil Ball: Columbia Outlook / Marvel Pearl
Location: Canton, Ohio

Re: Clipping thumb hole late

Post by ICURNVS » April 7th, 2021, 7:02 pm

I pay close attention to pro layouts.. just to see what they are using...

I see the long pin on val layouts on syms and asyms.

We did it for longer / heavier patterns just to see if it works for him. So far have not had a chance to test on anything other than house shots that do not have enough volume in the mids.
** UPDATED STATS AS OF 6-06-19 **
Right Hand
PAP 4 1/2-> 3/4 up
ROTATION 20 - 30
TILT 11.5*
MPH 14.5-15.2 MONITOR
RPM 350-375
RIP Visionary Bowling Products.....

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