Axiom layout for route 66 v2

Which layout is right for me?

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nwohbowler
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Positive Axis Point: 6 x 1
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Axis Rotation: 70

Axiom layout for route 66 v2

Post by nwohbowler » February 8th, 2021, 5:41 pm

Just want to get some input on suggested layouts for the route 66 v2 oil pattern my new Axiom.
Pap 6 over 1 up
440ish rev
70* rotation
17* tilt
17ish foul line speed *may be a bit higher since it's been awhile since was measured*
Monitor speed when warmed up typically shows 16.5
AMF synthetic surface
Storm vector or Standard dual angle layouts are fine.

Thank you in advance.
Right handed
Rev Rate 420s
Ball speed at release 17
Axis point 6 3/16" and 1" up
Tilt 17 degrees
Rotation 70 degrees

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EricHartwell
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Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
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Rev Rate: 330
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Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous
Medium Oil Ball: Motiv Villain, Hammer Nail, Brunswick True Motion
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Columbia Nitrous
Location: Michigan

Re: Axiom layout for route 66 v2

Post by EricHartwell » February 9th, 2021, 8:48 pm

The Axiom is touted as a strong Symmetrical ball. But...
I'm thinking you are probably going to need a more aggressive surface prep than the factory 3000 grit on the fresh.

If I was going to drill up a ball specifically for the 45' route 66 pattern it would be Asymmetrical not Symmetrical.
With that said the Symmetrical drillings for you will have close to 90* drilling angles.
I was thinking having Totals in the area of 80-90* on an Asym for you on this pattern.
This makes it very difficult for me to even make a Symmetrical layout recommendation in this case.

My recommendation
30-5-50 pin in the ring finger on a Stronger cored Asymmetrical for the fresh.

Once the pattern breaks down you might be able to use the Axiom
xx-4.5-35 with the Axiom at factory 3000 or shinier.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

nwohbowler
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Posts: 66
Joined: March 1st, 2019, 6:05 pm
Positive Axis Point: 6 x 1
Speed: 17 foul line
Rev Rate: 440
Axis Tilt: 17
Axis Rotation: 70

Re: Axiom layout for route 66 v2

Post by nwohbowler » February 10th, 2021, 1:21 pm

I had the first night of league on the new pattern. I didn't say originally that the ball was being drilled soon. Partly I wanted to see what others suggested to compare to what was put on it. All that said, he put a 50x4.75x50 layout on it. The result was plenty of strength for the pattern, partially because I think the house I bowl is a bit higher friction than some. I was impressed with both the ball and how well the guy drilled the ball. I have literally never been able to put my hand in a ball after having it drilled and not had to have them adjust the fit on the thumb. I've heard that the cover stock holds up well on this ball over time, so I'm hoping I don't have to constantly keep hitting the surface with a pad to maintain a good ball reaction, but that's a small price to pay to have a good long oil ball finally. I'm actually going to try it in the regular house shot league Friday at the same alley, because the guy said he thought it would be a house shot killer too.
Right handed
Rev Rate 420s
Ball speed at release 17
Axis point 6 3/16" and 1" up
Tilt 17 degrees
Rotation 70 degrees

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EricHartwell
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Posts: 3710
Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous
Medium Oil Ball: Motiv Villain, Hammer Nail, Brunswick True Motion
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Columbia Nitrous
Location: Michigan

Re: Axiom layout for route 66 v2

Post by EricHartwell » February 10th, 2021, 3:32 pm

Interesting, where is the pin location?
What is your span?
50-4.75-50 puts the pin right on the edge of the ring finger when I model the layout with a 4 1/2" span
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

nwohbowler
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Posts: 66
Joined: March 1st, 2019, 6:05 pm
Positive Axis Point: 6 x 1
Speed: 17 foul line
Rev Rate: 440
Axis Tilt: 17
Axis Rotation: 70

Re: Axiom layout for route 66 v2

Post by nwohbowler » February 10th, 2021, 3:44 pm

My span is 4 5/8 by 4 11/16. The pin is about 1/2" above the ring finger.
Image
Right handed
Rev Rate 420s
Ball speed at release 17
Axis point 6 3/16" and 1" up
Tilt 17 degrees
Rotation 70 degrees

User avatar
EricHartwell
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Posts: 3710
Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous
Medium Oil Ball: Motiv Villain, Hammer Nail, Brunswick True Motion
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Columbia Nitrous
Location: Michigan

Re: Axiom layout for route 66 v2

Post by EricHartwell » February 10th, 2021, 5:22 pm

The layout is actually 90-4.75-40
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Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

nwohbowler
Member
Member
Posts: 66
Joined: March 1st, 2019, 6:05 pm
Positive Axis Point: 6 x 1
Speed: 17 foul line
Rev Rate: 440
Axis Tilt: 17
Axis Rotation: 70

Re: Axiom layout for route 66 v2

Post by nwohbowler » February 10th, 2021, 5:44 pm

Strange that he would be so far off on the angles.... It worked well, but still.
Right handed
Rev Rate 420s
Ball speed at release 17
Axis point 6 3/16" and 1" up
Tilt 17 degrees
Rotation 70 degrees

User avatar
EricHartwell
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Posts: 3710
Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous
Medium Oil Ball: Motiv Villain, Hammer Nail, Brunswick True Motion
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Columbia Nitrous
Location: Michigan

Re: Axiom layout for route 66 v2

Post by EricHartwell » February 10th, 2021, 8:59 pm

I am here because I have had some very negative experiences with some pro shop operators.
While this experience you had isn't nearly as bad as what I went through, it still shows me that the overall knowledge/skill out there is not the best.

90-4.5-35 would have given you the inch required between gripping hole and the pin for warrantee just saying.

Glad to know that your PSO is a good fitter and has your grip issues taken care of.

I would double check his layouts when you are getting something drilled up for a specific purpose.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

nwohbowler
Member
Member
Posts: 66
Joined: March 1st, 2019, 6:05 pm
Positive Axis Point: 6 x 1
Speed: 17 foul line
Rev Rate: 440
Axis Tilt: 17
Axis Rotation: 70

Re: Axiom layout for route 66 v2

Post by nwohbowler » February 10th, 2021, 10:13 pm

This was a fellow bowler who has his own press and such that drills stuff for his family and friends. It probably makes sense that he's better at nailing the fit more than layouts doing it on his own. Still seems crazy that he was so far off the mark on the layout he said was on it. I'm going to have him measure out some of my balls that have layouts I know just to see what he comes up with. I won't call him out on it, but it would give me an idea how he comes up with what he does.
Right handed
Rev Rate 420s
Ball speed at release 17
Axis point 6 3/16" and 1" up
Tilt 17 degrees
Rotation 70 degrees

User avatar
EricHartwell
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 3710
Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous
Medium Oil Ball: Motiv Villain, Hammer Nail, Brunswick True Motion
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Columbia Nitrous
Location: Michigan

Re: Axiom layout for route 66 v2

Post by EricHartwell » February 11th, 2021, 4:41 pm

Your fellow bowler needs to know his layout accuracy isn't as good as it could be.
Without knowing he is making mistakes the same mistakes will keep being made.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

TomaHawk
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Re: Axiom layout for route 66 v2

Post by TomaHawk » February 19th, 2021, 4:32 pm

nwohbowler wrote:
February 10th, 2021, 5:44 pm
Strange that he would be so far off on the angles.... It worked well, but still.
I would venture to say, the pso set up a 50 x 4.75 x 50 layout, realized the ring finger would be too close to the pin (voiding the warranty), and moved the center of the grip down. Yes, by doing so, he changed the angles, but the basic premise behind the layout remained intact.

If the customer doesn't care about warranties, give them what they want. But, if the ball should crack, the customer has to realize, there are no exceptions in terms of returning the ball for warranty purposes. As a pro shop operator, good luck explaining that one.

Glenn
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Re: Axiom layout for route 66 v2

Post by Glenn » February 20th, 2021, 2:46 pm

I probably have no business commenting to this post where the big dogs play, but it is interesting from a Monday morning quarterback point of view.

My initial suggestion would also have been for an ASYM ball, until I saw the response about Synthetic Lanes with a “bit higher friction”. That may have opened up the possibility of SYM for me. Does this mean drier where the volume seems lower and the pattern seems cliffed, but maintains the same amount of recovery? I probably would have considered a ball with Medium RG, Lower DIFF, SYM, Hybrid (I am a fan of hybrids in some cases), and Medium Cover Strength (let surface changes do the tuning).

The PSO set up a 50* x 4.75” x 50* layout (which seems like a reasonable suggestion - I like 1:1 ratios in this case) looking for a Arc Reaction Shape, Medium Entry Angle, Normal Transition Time, and Forward Roll Motion. PSO seems adverse to drilling out the Pin, and appears to prefer moving the layout away from the Pin (about an inch) to avoid the warranty issue and changed the angles quite a bit. However, adjusting to 50* x 5” x 55* puts the Pin in the center of the Ring Finger and avoids the warranty issue, too.

My guess is that the 90* x 4.75" x 40* could give you more of a Strong Arc Reaction Shape, Med-High Entry Angle, Slower Transition Time, and a Forward Roll Ball Motion.

Thoughts?

TomaHawk
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Re: Axiom layout for route 66 v2

Post by TomaHawk » February 22nd, 2021, 3:15 pm

Glenn wrote:
February 20th, 2021, 2:46 pm
I probably have no business commenting to this post where the big dogs play, but it is interesting from a Monday morning quarterback point of view.

My initial suggestion would also have been for an ASYM ball, until I saw the response about Synthetic Lanes with a “bit higher friction”. That may have opened up the possibility of SYM for me. Does this mean drier where the volume seems lower and the pattern seems cliffed, but maintains the same amount of recovery? I probably would have considered a ball with Medium RG, Lower DIFF, SYM, Hybrid (I am a fan of hybrids in some cases), and Medium Cover Strength (let surface changes do the tuning).

The PSO set up a 50* x 4.75” x 50* layout (which seems like a reasonable suggestion - I like 1:1 ratios in this case) looking for a Arc Reaction Shape, Medium Entry Angle, Normal Transition Time, and Forward Roll Motion. PSO seems adverse to drilling out the Pin, and appears to prefer moving the layout away from the Pin (about an inch) to avoid the warranty issue and changed the angles quite a bit. However, adjusting to 50* x 5” x 55* puts the Pin in the center of the Ring Finger and avoids the warranty issue, too.

My guess is that the 90* x 4.75" x 40* could give you more of a Strong Arc Reaction Shape, Med-High Entry Angle, Slower Transition Time, and a Forward Roll Ball Motion.

Thoughts?
From the pro shop perspective, there could be a lot of dialogue between the customer and the person who is going to drill the ball. That seems to be especially true where the driller is not in a commercial environment. The conversation could go on for hours, days, or weeks privately. Where as in a brick and mortar shop, conversations tend to be in the 15 minute range. Of course, that does not include going out on the lanes to gather information about the person's game.

There are probably more than a few things to look at when examining the 50 x 4.75 x 50 layout mentioned by the OP. First and foremost, the ending layout was not as noted. An interesting scenario would be, the ball was lost or destroyed. The bowler goes to another shop in an effort to duplicate / replace the original ball and request the same layout. Big surprise!

Could another layout been recommended? Yes.

But, in the end, the driller probably tweaked the 50 x 4.75 x 50 to suit his needs. He just failed to realize the importance of remeasuring the DA for future reference.

The most important thing to look at, the customer was happy with the end results.

nwohbowler
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Posts: 66
Joined: March 1st, 2019, 6:05 pm
Positive Axis Point: 6 x 1
Speed: 17 foul line
Rev Rate: 440
Axis Tilt: 17
Axis Rotation: 70

Re: Axiom layout for route 66 v2

Post by nwohbowler » February 23rd, 2021, 8:21 pm

After a decent amount of bowling with this ball, I'm definitely happy with how the layout works. I think the assessment of the original layout being tweaked to avoid drilling into the pin is probably correct. The ball has been working tremendously well on my house shot league as I've averaged right at 230 with it. I have only had 1 week on the sport shot league due to weather causing it to be cancelled, but it did fairly well on it straight out of the box and tonight I'll get a chance to see how it is with some games on it.
Right handed
Rev Rate 420s
Ball speed at release 17
Axis point 6 3/16" and 1" up
Tilt 17 degrees
Rotation 70 degrees

nwohbowler
Member
Member
Posts: 66
Joined: March 1st, 2019, 6:05 pm
Positive Axis Point: 6 x 1
Speed: 17 foul line
Rev Rate: 440
Axis Tilt: 17
Axis Rotation: 70

Re: Axiom layout for route 66 v2

Post by nwohbowler » March 6th, 2021, 2:24 am

Just another follow up. Still averaging over 230 for the house shot league since I got this ball and the sport shot league average is climbing as well. Since switching to the long pattern I'm averaging just under 200 on the route 66 v2 shot. I'm seriously considering buying another Axiom to hold on to for later over getting a different ball to drill now. I've never matched up with a ball or layout as well as I have with this one. Funny thing I noticed the other day, the layout he put on it is exactly the same as the layout another local PSO put on the Hustle Ink bought. I told both to put what they thought would be a good and versatile layout for me. The guy who drilled my Axiom has seen me bowl probably a hundred games or so over the time that we've bowled in the same league, the other guy watched me throw the ball for about 5 minutes. Both came to the same conclusion. So whatever this layout ended up being, I'm going to have to document for future use. At last on symmetrical storm/roto grip balls.

Now, on a related tangent. If I don't end up just buying a backup Axiom to hold on to, I've been thinking about an asym pearl ball because I don't have one. Any suggestions on what to look at and what a good versatile layout would be for it? If you think that I wouldn't match up well with an asym pearl feel free to let me know.
Right handed
Rev Rate 420s
Ball speed at release 17
Axis point 6 3/16" and 1" up
Tilt 17 degrees
Rotation 70 degrees

User avatar
EricHartwell
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 3710
Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous
Medium Oil Ball: Motiv Villain, Hammer Nail, Brunswick True Motion
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Columbia Nitrous
Location: Michigan

Re: Axiom layout for route 66 v2

Post by EricHartwell » March 6th, 2021, 7:04 pm

If I averaged over 30 pins less on a sport shot I would not be happy either with my performance or the equipment I am using or Both.
You need to be honest with yourself and stop trying to play me for a fool. I don't think your ball choice and layout is working on your sport shot.
Or your house shot is so easy that any ball would work. I've bowled on conditions like that.
While I am willing to help I do not like to feel as though I am wasting my time. I have given you a complete list of layouts in this post...

viewtopic.php?t=14281

Please refer back to this.

OK, so you have the same layout on a light oil low differential Hustle ink and a Heavy oil High differential Axiom. Hmm, interesting.
Both are dilled for your House shot I presume.
When I analyze your release specs I come up with xx-4-40 as your Symmetrical Benchmark.
Your Drillers have given you weaker Symmetrical Benchmark Ratio layouts. Actually a good idea for the THS.
Weaker because of the 4.75" pin to PAP is making them more like low flare layouts. Assuming your PAP measurement is correct.

Have you verified your PAP on the Axiom or another higher differential/higher flaring ball?

I ask questions like this because you have conflicting information between your signature and your profile and past posts.

For other readers, if you are just guessing on your release specs(ish) then I am just guessing on any layout(ish) help.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

TomaHawk
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Joined: July 19th, 2010, 3:28 pm
Location: Michigan

Re: Axiom layout for route 66 v2

Post by TomaHawk » March 6th, 2021, 11:49 pm

nwohbowler wrote:
March 6th, 2021, 2:24 am
I've never matched up with a ball or layout as well as I have with this one. Funny thing I noticed the other day, the layout he put on it is exactly the same as the layout another local PSO put on the Hustle Ink bought. I told both to put what they thought would be a good and versatile layout for me. The guy who drilled my Axiom has seen me bowl probably a hundred games or so over the time that we've bowled in the same league, the other guy watched me throw the ball for about 5 minutes. Both came to the same conclusion. So whatever this layout ended up being, I'm going to have to document for future use. At last on symmetrical storm/roto grip balls.
Two different shops came up with the same layout on two very different balls? The only thing that is similar, both balls are symmetric. The shops must be using the same generic chart for layouts.

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