Layout/surface advice for next ball for THS

Which layout is right for me?

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Jthom757
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Layout/surface advice for next ball for THS

Post by Jthom757 » January 26th, 2019, 10:24 pm

Hello All,

I have a Hyper Cell Fused @ 60x5x30 and the box (1500 polish) finish. I've had a good amount of luck with Cell balls and similar asymmetricals with polish. I throw ~16mph (on the lane display) and have ~300rpm. I have a PAP of 4.5 inches over and sorry, I haven't found my tilt and axis rotation yet. I will do soon. We can call my tilt and axis rotation about medium. This particular ball rolled great for me on second shift THS the other night, but I encountered some carry down and a cliffed condition. I want to drill another Fused, but would really appreciate some advice on how to attack this. I really like this ball because I have plenty of hold inside and the perfect amount of bounce off the wall. It has the perfect amount of midlane read and energy retention. So to retain this ball reaction should I just close up the drill angle and leave everything else alone, or should I drill the ball fairly similar and tinker with the surface? Part of me also wants to tighten up both angles and shorten the pin to pap, so I could move left into the cliff and still turn the corner.

I would love to hear some opinions on this. Just a side note, I already have a fused with a 70 degree VAL angle and I plan to experiment with utilizing it closer to the friction when the lanes are cliffed. I realize I could lean on a stronger ball like a Physix, but so many great bowlers seem to have success utilizing different layouts on one particular ball.

Thank you so much
Justin

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EricHartwell
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Re: Layout/surface advice for next ball for THS

Post by EricHartwell » January 27th, 2019, 5:13 am

Knowing your tilt is very important when tuning in your arsenal with layouts.

Right now you have the 2:1 ratio 90* Total 60-5-30
This is Benchmark for a slightly speed dominant bowler lower tilt and higher Rotation.
The 5" Pin to PAP is forward rolling for lower Rotation.
You are slightly speed dominant and making this ball work for you.

Utilizing the same ball with different layouts should also be tuned with different surface grits.
Sticking with all polished surfaces will limit the versatility of your arsenal.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

Jthom757
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Positive Axis Point: 4.75 over
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Re: Layout/surface advice for next ball for THS

Post by Jthom757 » January 27th, 2019, 7:15 pm

Thank you for the information Eric. I’ll recheck my PAP and find all the other numbers.
Justin

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snick
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Re: Layout/surface advice for next ball for THS

Post by snick » January 28th, 2019, 12:30 pm

FYI, when measuring your PAP with an Armadillo, your axis tilt can be calculated from the numbers embossed next to the ribs in the pin/CG locator section. (inches)

For example, if your track aligns with the rib at 7", the arc distance across the NAP would be 13".
13.5 - 7 = 6.5
6.5 * 2 = 13
The axis tilt for a 13" track can be found on a chart in the wiki.
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vicsmyth
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Re: Layout/surface advice for next ball for THS

Post by vicsmyth » January 28th, 2019, 4:31 pm

I'm an amateur, not a coach or ball driller, just wanted to pass this along. I'm also a big Cell fan and generally kept them polished. I had a similar problem this year with carrydown and have had some success with my Hyper Cell Fused by scuffing it with a 3000 abralon pad which makes it less jumpy on the back end and helps it cut through the carrydown as long as I have enough angle into the pocket. For comparison to you, my typical layout is pin in the ring finger, cg kicked out a bit, probably 55x3.75x60. 4/1-2 x 3/4 up PAP, 225 revs, 45-60 rotation, 20-25 tilt, 15-16 mph. I've generally been starting out with a Hyroad, similar layout with 2000 ab pad, then balling up to the Fused when I start flat tenning or 2-8-10'ing with the Hyroad due to carrydown.

Jthom757
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Positive Axis Point: 4.75 over
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Re: Layout/surface advice for next ball for THS

Post by Jthom757 » January 29th, 2019, 5:44 pm

EricHartwell wrote:Knowing your tilt is very important when tuning in your arsenal with layouts.

Right now you have the 2:1 ratio 90* Total 60-5-30
This is Benchmark for a slightly speed dominant bowler lower tilt and higher Rotation.
The 5" Pin to PAP is forward rolling for lower Rotation.
You are slightly speed dominant and making this ball work for you.

Utilizing the same ball with different layouts should also be tuned with different surface grits.
Sticking with all polished surfaces will limit the versatility of your arsenal.
I attached my specs. Didn’t realize I’m high tilt. Definitely explains a lot. Does this mean my benchmark ratio is 1:2? Any advice on layouts would be greatly appreciated. All these numbers seem to wiggle a bit but went with an average of my findings.

Tilt 30
Axis 60
Speed 16.2 using video
Rpm 300
Pap 4.75 over

Thank you
Last edited by Jthom757 on January 29th, 2019, 11:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Justin

Jthom757
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Posts: 19
Joined: December 24th, 2016, 5:42 pm
Positive Axis Point: 4.75 over
Speed: 16.2mph camera
Rev Rate: 300
Axis Tilt: 30
Axis Rotation: 60
Preferred Company: Storm

Re: Layout/surface advice for next ball for THS

Post by Jthom757 » January 29th, 2019, 5:45 pm

snick wrote:FYI, when measuring your PAP with an Armadillo, your axis tilt can be calculated from the numbers embossed next to the ribs in the pin/CG locator section. (inches)

For example, if your track aligns with the rib at 7", the arc distance across the NAP would be 13".
13.5 - 7 = 6.5
6.5 * 2 = 13
The axis tilt for a 13" track can be found on a chart in the wiki.
Thank you!
Justin

Jthom757
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Posts: 19
Joined: December 24th, 2016, 5:42 pm
Positive Axis Point: 4.75 over
Speed: 16.2mph camera
Rev Rate: 300
Axis Tilt: 30
Axis Rotation: 60
Preferred Company: Storm

Re: Layout/surface advice for next ball for THS

Post by Jthom757 » January 29th, 2019, 5:46 pm

vicsmyth wrote:I'm an amateur, not a coach or ball driller, just wanted to pass this along. I'm also a big Cell fan and generally kept them polished. I had a similar problem this year with carrydown and have had some success with my Hyper Cell Fused by scuffing it with a 3000 abralon pad which makes it less jumpy on the back end and helps it cut through the carrydown as long as I have enough angle into the pocket. For comparison to you, my typical layout is pin in the ring finger, cg kicked out a bit, probably 55x3.75x60. 4/1-2 x 3/4 up PAP, 225 revs, 45-60 rotation, 20-25 tilt, 15-16 mph. I've generally been starting out with a Hyroad, similar layout with 2000 ab pad, then balling up to the Fused when I start flat tenning or 2-8-10'ing with the Hyroad due to carrydown.
Appreciate the info.
Justin

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EricHartwell
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Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous
Medium Oil Ball: Motiv Villain, Hammer Nail, Brunswick True Motion
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Columbia Nitrous
Location: Michigan

Re: Layout/surface advice for next ball for THS

Post by EricHartwell » January 30th, 2019, 1:44 am

Jthom757 wrote:
I attached my specs. Didn’t realize I’m high tilt. Definitely explains a lot. Does this mean my benchmark ratio is 1:2? Any advice on layouts would be greatly appreciated. All these numbers seem to wiggle a bit but went with an average of my findings.

Tilt 30
Axis 60
Speed 16.2 using video
Rpm 300
Pap 4.75 over

Thank you
Sweetspot 90* Total, 1:2 Ratio

Asymmetrical Layouts
Totally Strong ......... 30-5-40
Midlane .................. 20-4.5-50 Pin in the ring finger
Benchmark ............. 30-4.5-60
Long and Strong ...... 50-4.25-60
Control ................... 35-4-70

Symmetrical layouts
Benchmark ............. xx-3-55
Control .................. xx-4-70

For THS conditions I recommend Control and Long and Strong layouts for you.
Dull surfaces for fresh conditions.
I don't see where you would ever really need a polished ball. 4000 grit would be the smoothest you should need except for a spare ball.

My arsenal lists are a starting point. Ball choice should be considered when determining layouts.

What ball are you thinking about getting?
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

Jthom757
Member
Member
Posts: 19
Joined: December 24th, 2016, 5:42 pm
Positive Axis Point: 4.75 over
Speed: 16.2mph camera
Rev Rate: 300
Axis Tilt: 30
Axis Rotation: 60
Preferred Company: Storm

Re: Layout/surface advice for next ball for THS

Post by Jthom757 » January 30th, 2019, 2:08 am

EricHartwell wrote: Sweetspot 90* Total, 1:2 Ratio

Asymmetrical Layouts
Totally Strong ......... 30-5-40
Midlane .................. 20-4.5-50 Pin in the ring finger
Benchmark ............. 30-4.5-60
Long and Strong ...... 50-4.25-60
Control ................... 35-4-70

Symmetrical layouts
Benchmark ............. xx-3-55
Control .................. xx-4-70

For THS conditions I recommend Control and Long and Strong layouts for you.
Dull surfaces for fresh conditions.
I don't see where you would ever really need a polished ball. 4000 grit would be the smoothest you should need except for a spare ball.

My arsenal lists are a starting point. Ball choice should be considered when determining layouts.

What ball are you thinking about getting?
Eric,

Wow thank you for the information! I am planning on punching up a hyper cell fused tomorrow. I bowl mostly 2nd shift leagues. I bowl at a fairly high friction house and all my honor scores at this house are with polish. Looks like I have some new layouts to test.

Thank you
Justin

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EricHartwell
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Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
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Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous
Medium Oil Ball: Motiv Villain, Hammer Nail, Brunswick True Motion
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Columbia Nitrous
Location: Michigan

Re: Layout/surface advice for next ball for THS

Post by EricHartwell » January 30th, 2019, 3:18 am

2nd shift league with no re-oil, I stand corrected on the need for polished surface.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

Jthom757
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Posts: 19
Joined: December 24th, 2016, 5:42 pm
Positive Axis Point: 4.75 over
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Re: Layout/surface advice for next ball for THS

Post by Jthom757 » March 3rd, 2019, 11:21 pm

Sorry to bump an old thread. Just wanted to say thanks to Eric! Last week I rolled a 300 with a Black ops @ 30x5x40 with box finish in game 3 of a second shift league. The totally strong layout has allowed me to stay in the oil and move left with ease (something that used to be a struggle for me). I've drilled a few balls with 30X5X40 and love the look. Next, I plan to give 30X4.5x60 (benchmark) a try. I figure the bigger VAL will be more favorable for the fresh.
Justin

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EricHartwell
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Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous
Medium Oil Ball: Motiv Villain, Hammer Nail, Brunswick True Motion
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Columbia Nitrous
Location: Michigan

Re: Layout/surface advice for next ball for THS

Post by EricHartwell » March 4th, 2019, 2:10 am

Congratulations!! Love hearing the success stories.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

Jthom757
Member
Member
Posts: 19
Joined: December 24th, 2016, 5:42 pm
Positive Axis Point: 4.75 over
Speed: 16.2mph camera
Rev Rate: 300
Axis Tilt: 30
Axis Rotation: 60
Preferred Company: Storm

Re: Layout/surface advice for next ball for THS

Post by Jthom757 » August 8th, 2020, 2:32 am

What would my totally strong layout be for a symmetrical ball now that we can’t have weight holes? I was thinking xx-3.5-35. Is this acceptable? Thank you!
Justin

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EricHartwell
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Posts: 3654
Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous
Medium Oil Ball: Motiv Villain, Hammer Nail, Brunswick True Motion
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Columbia Nitrous
Location: Michigan

Re: Layout/surface advice for next ball for THS

Post by EricHartwell » August 9th, 2020, 3:46 pm

xx-4-30 with the thumb drilled to 4" deep will produce the most flare and cover the most boards in the backend reaction.

Is xx-3.5-35 acceptable? short answer, Yes.
5* and a 1/2" is a small adjustment. The average bowler would have a hard time seeing the difference on the lanes.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

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